RE: burma logistics (Full Version)

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herwin -> RE: burma logistics (7/21/2009 10:12:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mussey

As with history, I always seem to get beat up retreating from Burma. I tried to defend the rivers but get out-flanked or pushed back, and then once in the open - get pummelled. As for me, the first sign of a Jap trooper on Burma soil and I'm heading for the hills of India. Bug-out dude! 'Imphal or bust'.


Historically, the Japanese Army was lousy at stand-up fights, but world-leading at infiltration combat. Think 20-40 points higher in the LCU combat skill parameter for infiltration attacks relative to assaults. That's why the Commonwealth in Burma eventually had to learn to establish 360 degree defensive perimeters. In game terms, you can't form a continuous line against a Japanese opponent in a close terrain hex unless you have on the order of a full army--otherwise the Japanese simply leaked through into your rear. I suspect the right way to handle that is to ignore ZoCs and hex occupancy in Japanese movement--Japanese LCUs go where they please. They also don't retreat except voluntarily.



Barb -> RE: burma logistics (7/21/2009 10:17:15 PM)

Well to me Burma is trap. So no more reinforcements there (except 7th Armored Bde). Burma div and 17th Indian Div is all I let to fight delaying campaign along with 3-9 Chinese Divisions from Yunan.
I'll rather use all those reinforcements elsewhere (even those that could be eventually lost)

I think I will try to play close to history - but not strictly...



Kwik E Mart -> RE: burma logistics (7/21/2009 11:29:16 PM)

Here's what I would do...

SLAP



Kwik E Mart -> RE: burma logistics (7/21/2009 11:29:33 PM)

THE JAP



Kwik E Mart -> RE: burma logistics (7/21/2009 11:30:00 PM)

WITH



Kwik E Mart -> RE: burma logistics (7/21/2009 11:30:20 PM)

IRON



Kwik E Mart -> RE: burma logistics (7/21/2009 11:30:34 PM)

edit - oops, too many irons...



Kwik E Mart -> RE: burma logistics (7/21/2009 11:30:50 PM)

SCRAP



Kwik E Mart -> RE: burma logistics (7/21/2009 11:32:37 PM)

...


[image]local://upfiles/13152/C61CE40DA2044021875738FD5B866B2B.jpg[/image]



Montbrun -> RE: burma logistics (7/22/2009 6:55:49 AM)

This is from one of my posts some time ago:

I scanned this diagram showing the size and type of rail net in India around the Calcutta (and North) area during WWII. Note that there were NO BRIDGES across the Ganges River at this time. All Gear and supplies had to be off-loaded, transfered to ferries or barges to cross the river, and then re-loaded:




[image]local://upfiles/2450/B61E4550D58C411987BFE6B7982DC8D8.jpg[/image]



onhilotime -> burma first? (7/22/2009 9:35:18 PM)

Thanks for the awesome feedback. In WITP I made a successful run at a "Burma first" strategy...diverting several US West Coast divisions to Burma, pulling most Malayan units and Dutch airpower back Rangoon.

I dug in Moulmein and ran bombardment task forces against the Japanese AI...like Verdun with dreadnoughts...at the gates of Rangoon. I ground out victory there before slowly working down the peninsula, reaching Saigon and joining hands with the Chinese at Hanoi in mid-1943. LBA out of SE Asia shut down Japanese access to DEI.

I wonder whether the Japanese AI in AE will allow itself to be pinned down in the one place I can actually defend....?

Hilotime



ny59giants -> RE: burma first? (8/2/2009 1:08:16 PM)

bump...

This needs a sticky or moved into the "War Room."  Now to find the thread with Andy Mac's comments about India.



EUBanana -> RE: burma logistics (8/2/2009 2:10:57 PM)

I tried a defence at Pegu with basically everything in Burma, but no reinforcement, and they got ran over in a day.  The Japanese AI put 1100 AV into the assault, I think just about everything in Burma comes to about one division.

Fort levels of Pegu were only 3 by the time they made their move (February 1st 1942).  Not good enough.  You just can't dig in quick enough.

If that is a typical Japanese attack, then I think Burma is indefensible without reinforcement.  Though that said, there are plenty of Burma Command reinforcements that I neglected to actually deploy in Burma, more than a divisions worth.   An addition division sent there could hold Burma without Japanese reinforcement of that default attack I think.

Though given the forces freed up from Malaya/PI, it still doesn't look in the medium term.    So I'm inclined to just pull out of Burma completely.

Incidentally in my game Singapore wasn't starved out but beaten out, falling in late January while sitting on 70k of supply.  I think it might be best to just pull all Malayan units back to Singapore immediately rather than contest the Japanese advance, as once the retreat begins the mauling can be quite vicious.  The Japanese have a lot of armour they bring to the party.   Once again the fort levels were unimpressive.  (4 I think).  They take a long time to build now, so I think the dynamics of the early campaign are quite different as a result.



Jim D Burns -> RE: burma logistics (8/2/2009 5:56:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
I tried a defence at Pegu with basically everything in Burma, but no reinforcement, and they got ran over in a day. 


The problem I foresee with Burma is the new surrender routines in game. Burma's units are so inexperienced that they surrender pretty much no matter what instead of just retreating when they lose a fight. And they don't have time to train up to high enough levels to get to a safe 50 experience level (at least I think surrenders are off the table at 50).

So basically Burma is pretty much hard coded to fall by the scenario's design. So no sense really trying to defend it. I'd stay put until a serious threat emerges, then beet feet for India, were you can train up your units and then come back later when they can actually engage in a fight without going poof.

I am finding the same is true in Malaya, the DEIs and the Philippines. They are hard coded to fall very fast now as well because of the new surrender routines, so you might as well pull out what you can. If enough Philippine divisions surrender during the retreat to the Bataan peninsula, I doubt Bataan will hold out more than a month or so now.

For the Japanese player, I'd recommend throwing caution to the wind and attack, attack and then attack some more. Your opposition will melt away before your eyes.

Jim



Andy Mac -> RE: burma logistics (8/2/2009 6:05:14 PM)

Did you change any of the leasers ?

The surrender test needs to fail BOTH an experience and leader test so put in better leaders spend those PP's and you will find your defence a lot stronger

Barstow, Smyth, Hutton and Murray Lyon all need to be replaced early doors and Gordon Bennett aint exactly gods gift either.

PP replacement of early leaders is important you have better use them



Andy Mac -> RE: burma logistics (8/2/2009 6:06:23 PM)

p.s. Malaya, Burma and PI are NOT hard coded to fall some are easier than others but use the right tactics and reinforce historically and you will see sensible results

Hoard units in the rear and they will fall early its kinda logical



Jim D Burns -> RE: burma logistics (8/2/2009 6:16:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Did you change any of the leasers ?

The surrender test needs to fail BOTH an experience and leader test so put in better leaders spend those PP's and you will find your defence a lot stronger

Barstow, Smyth, Hutton and Murray Lyon all need to be replaced early doors and Gordon Bennett aint exactly gods gift either.

PP replacement of early leaders is important you have better use them


Fair enough, I'll test it out. But this leads to a question. If a unit surrenders, do you lose the leader? I assume you would. So is it then really worth putting your best ground commanders in the Burma force units if they go poof along with their units if they fail a roll?

Jim



EUBanana -> RE: burma logistics (8/2/2009 6:39:38 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Did you change any of the leasers ?


I fired Percival for someone competent, but that was it.

I'm not sure what you mean by "surrender routines". I didn't have many units outright surrender until the siege, though do you mean the mauling you get when retreating?

The actual siege just took about three days. Low fort levels and not much AV was the culprit, supply was plentiful. Things might have been better if everybody in Malaya just ran for Singapore rather than stay and be mauled.



Jim D Burns -> RE: burma logistics (8/2/2009 8:47:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana
I'm not sure what you mean by "surrender routines".


I'm not exactly sure of what changes were made, as the manual doesn't cover it. But now when a unit retreats, a surrender roll happens all the time for low experience units instead of only at certain odds or supply situations as happened in WitP. In fact I *think* (not sure) surrender checks are made just for fighting, a retreat isn't actually required to fire the check. So even though you may win a fight, a bunch of units may surrender anyways.

A good example would be my current AI game. The FMSV brigade defending Kota Bharu in NE Malaya surrendered after the Japanese landing forced a retreat. The odds were not that high and casualties were about 2-1 in favor of Japan, yet my unit went poof anyway.

So after just one fight, the Malaya campaign lost about 30 - 60 potential AV for the Singapore defense due to the new rule. I could have lost a lot more had both brigades surrendered. At this rate (assuming I lose one or more units in every fight) Singapore won't have enough strength left to withstand the typical Japanese 3 division assault and will probably fall on the first attack.

Jim



EUBanana -> RE: burma logistics (8/2/2009 10:14:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
A good example would be my current AI game. The FMSV brigade defending Kota Bharu in NE Malaya surrendered after the Japanese landing forced a retreat. The odds were not that high and casualties were about 2-1 in favor of Japan, yet my unit went poof anyway.

So after just one fight, the Malaya campaign lost about 30 - 60 potential AV for the Singapore defense due to the new rule. I could have lost a lot more had both brigades surrendered. At this rate (assuming I lose one or more units in every fight) Singapore won't have enough strength left to withstand the typical Japanese 3 division assault and will probably fall on the first attack.


I did notice this but I dont think it was significant in my own game. What was significant was the gutting of my units in the process of the retreat from the 3 LCUs of Japanese armour.

Even one defeat now can really scourge your troops. I've been playing a fairly active ground campaign in China and its even more obvious there I think - casualties from land warfare have really gone up I think.

In any case I didn't move anything in Malaya until units started getting attacked, and then I pulled back to Kuala Lumpur and the base NE of it whose name I forget. That was the sum total of movements I did. In the process of that campaign, which lasted until the end of December pretty much, the Allies got slaughtered to the point that the final siege of Singers was well under a single division in strength.

It's quite possible that this was defective tactics on my part, but I don't think I did much different from what I did in WITP, which usually led to Singapore lasting at least till the end of February in a siege. So I think something has changed, and to the Malaya Army's detriment.

I think next time, I'll just shift everything to Singapore when the Japanese are landed in force, let them occupy the peninsula without a shot, and try and preserve my forces for the siege.


As for Burma, as my game continues, I think the decision the Allies face is pretty stark and pretty obvious. If you don't reinforce it and the Japanese come in in 2-3 divisional strength, just evacuate, its pointless. If you're serious about putting up a fight, reinforce it. If the Japs make the usual attack and you've not reinforced then you're just going to get everything crumpled up to nothing.

So I think my plan for Burma in future will be a fairly modest tripwire force so I can see what is coming in, and if its of the 1000+ AV variety assault, immediately railing to to the north and making the trek to Imphal. I think reinforcement is too risky for me. Though if you look at Burma Command's stuff there is some serious firepower allotted to Burma if you've got the cojones to deploy them that far forward.

7th Armoured is a Burma Command unit and arrives pretty quick - quick enough to be deployed there I think. They would definitely change the dynamic of the campaign. I suppose you might argue that as they are getting withdrawn anyway in the medium term you may as well go for it...

I'm just too paranoid about India though to commit much to Burma.



Andy Mac -> RE: burma logistics (8/2/2009 10:26:39 PM)

Weak low morale low experience units with poor leaders have a chance not a big chance but a chance to just break apart and surrender in combat this is to refelce the lack of preparedness and uselessness of these units it mostly applies to allied units int eh 1st 6 months and its mostly militia type units that are vulnerable but I have seen the odd Indian bde surrender as well - not often but occasionally Burmese and malay troops will tend to do it more and just up sticks and go home - its almost a loss of unit cohesions/time to take my rifle and go to my village type behaviour



Jim D Burns -> RE: burma logistics (8/3/2009 4:55:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Weak low morale low experience units with poor leaders have a chance not a big chance but a chance to just break apart and surrender in combat this is to refelce the lack of preparedness and uselessness of these units it mostly applies to allied units int eh 1st 6 months and its mostly militia type units that are vulnerable but I have seen the odd Indian bde surrender as well - not often but occasionally Burmese and malay troops will tend to do it more and just up sticks and go home - its almost a loss of unit cohesions/time to take my rifle and go to my village type behaviour



Situation: Bataan Peninsula March 1942. Japanese division assaults dug in entrenched allied troops in the dense jungle terrain.

Commanding officer to his chief of staff: Things look are looking good, reports across the line indicate a full retreat by the Japanese is underway.

Chief of staff: Yes sir!

Commanding officer: Look at that, the esprit de corp of the Philippine troops is amazing, they are mounting a division level charge in pursuit of the enemy.

Chief of staff: Um no sir, they surrendered during the fight and are trying to catch up with their captors...

Jim



tacfire -> RE: burma logistics (8/3/2009 8:29:37 AM)

Regarding the weak moral of the allied ground units in Burma & Malasia and the retreating and surrendering of units that people are talking about above in this discussion, has anyone tried putting some of his ground combat units in Reserve Mode, and will this help out with plugging gaps in retreat and helping to avoid surrendring of units?  I was just wondering.



tacfire -> RE: burma logistics (8/3/2009 6:10:56 PM)

didn't see a response to my question above - so bump.



Scott_USN -> RE: burma logistics (8/3/2009 6:29:34 PM)

Can Rangoon be held? I use to abandon it period but now I wonder. I have pulled 3 chinese 11th army divisions to Burma Mandalay area are resting. 1st Burma is there already the 17t(maybe 18th forget) is on the way, 6th Australian is building in Aden 2 days before last bde shows up and then shipping it. I took the Bde heading for doomed Sinapore ans put them in Rangoon and Port Blair. I intend to make Blair and is almost there a solid unsinkable Air Craft Carrier. I wasn't hard to build it up with the doomed base forces in Malay and Borneo.

Think I am wasting my time and a few precious divisions in CBI?



Scott_USN -> RE: burma logistics (8/5/2009 2:24:44 AM)

Well I didn't let them get settled at Rangoon I put everything I could into the city, I lost Pegu but didn;t want to hold it anyway just to delay japan so I could bomb his troops and ships, I got a good hit on a transport and took down 47 AFVs was nice.

Then when they came to Rangoon as soon as they touched the city outskirts I hit them with everything I had and busted them. 1600 dead and wounded infantry should take the spit out of the 33rd and the other regiments. A good start I think yeah it hurt but it hurt them more :)

[image]http://i28.photobucket.com/albums/c234/fwarleader/Rangoon.jpg[/image]



dpazuk -> RE: burma logistics (8/5/2009 4:12:18 AM)

Nice result Scott.

I am curious, did the AI do any follow-up attacks?




Scott_USN -> RE: burma logistics (8/5/2009 4:25:59 AM)

Yes 3 days later and they are imbedded in Rangoon and I can't get them out so now it is all defense. I am debating trying to put the 6th Aussie there but damn the Betties!

I did try one more counter attack and it was even about 1500 lost on both sides so I stopped



onhilotime -> RE: burma logistics (8/5/2009 2:56:20 PM)

I'm really interested in if you can hold on. I'm in mid January with 1500 AV dug in at Pegu behind level 3 forts. With a Lvl 6 airfield at Rangoon and all the relocated air power from Singapore and India i have kept the port open with only a few lost transports. If I can beat off the assault and train up the Burma army, an overland offensive into Thailand may be possible in 1943.

I figure moving over to the offensive will require a few things:

1. A secure airfield within bomber range of Bangkok and Southern Thailand to shut down the Betty raids that cripple your convoys. Rangoon works for heavies but Moulmein is probably necessary for the British medium bombers (which means advancing beyond the fort line).

2. No KB in the Bay of Bengal.

3. Abandon any offensive moves out of Northern Aus. Might even require a US CV.

I see this strategy providing several possible benefits:

1. Early reconquest of the Malayan peninsula and Singapore. Allied air power get an early crack at Japanese resource shipments.

2. Relieve pressure on the Chinese. Prevent Japan from concentrating naval forces in 1942 against US naval forces while they are vulnerable.

3. With AE's restrictions on atolls and ports, Southeast Asia offers excellent ports and large airfields.

thoughts?

Hilotime




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