Greatest Generals of All Time (Full Version)

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Dan in Toledo -> Greatest Generals of All Time (9/18/2001 2:20:00 AM)

Okay, we're debating the most significant battles of all time. How about the Greatest Generals of all time. Julius Caesar---Roman 48bc
Alexander Greek 325bc
Hannibal Carthaginian 200bc
Belisarius Byzantine 525ad
Khalid Arabian 655ad
Tamerlane Mogul 1350ad
Jackson Confederate 1863ad
Manstein German 1943ad
Guderian German 1941ad
Mannerheim Finnish 1939ad
Washington American 1778ad
Napoleon French 1810ad
Scipio Roman 200bc
Yamashita Japanese 1941ad
Rommell German 1940ad
Patton American 1944ad I cant think of many for some reason right now. The list above is in no order; it was just a brainstorming session. Please feel free to add to this list.



Grumble -> (9/18/2001 2:51:00 AM)

Great list, I would humbly add: Saladin, Arabian 1100 CE
Ziskos, John Magyar 15th Century(?)
Gustavus Adolphus, Swedish 16th Century [ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: Grumble ]



Jo van der Pluym -> (9/18/2001 3:11:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Dan in Toledo:
Please feel free to add to this list.
Here some generals for add to the list. Zhukov - Russian - WWII
Wellington - UK - around 1800-1812



Les_the_Sarge_9_1 -> (9/18/2001 3:54:00 AM)

Everyone forgets the guy(s) that do the great deeds but dont get the press. Anyone remember the Limey General that presided over one of the greatest advances in modern warfare, then they steal his units for Greece and Rommel shows up. Several sacked Generals later (Churchill must have been reeeeeally fun to be around in 41-42) and Monty appears after all the works done. So much of history is filled with "great" generals who merely were lucky or just in the right place and time. Patton was something else, but did you know he actually "wanted" to hit the Pas de Calais. Not the thoughts of a "brilliant" mind. The Germans thought he was going there as well. Then there is Stormin Norman. Hmmmm his gulf victories were standard text book fare. Was anyone other than Saddam surprised. If MacArthur had have gotten his way he would have ended up captured fighting in the Phillipines as a regular trooper. He wasnt looking to fight any big war. I think the Pacific was won by Halsey a lot more than by MacArthur. Most history those is made flashy by Prima donnas. The Press is the key to fame, not military brilliance.



gators -> (9/18/2001 5:37:00 AM)

My list begins with:
Alexander
Gustav Adolf
Napoleon
Trajan
Belisarus
Subotai
Henry V
Manstein
Lee
Hannibal
they are in no particular order



Dan from Toledo -> (9/18/2001 7:51:00 AM)

O'Connor was the British General who commanded "Wavell's 30000". It was he who masterminded that great counterstroke. However, he was later captured by the Germans and sat the rest of the war out as a POW.
Also, about Zhukov: I thought about adding him to the list. Even though he was the best the Russians had in WW2, his generalship is questionable. He used the NKVD to push his troops forward time and again. If they retreated in the slightest they would be shot. He used human wave tactics against the Germans. He also used low rated battalions to clear mine fields. Hardly the conduct of a superb general. He is a good general but I welcome debate from others as to being one of the best. Who is the Magyar John? I am not familiar with him. Please advise. Thanks . Good one on Gustavus Adolphus. Also add to the list: Thermistocles Greek 480bc
Temujin (aka Genghis Khan) Mongol 1200ad



Dan from Toledo -> (9/18/2001 7:55:00 AM)

Trajan?
Sabutai? I know of Trajan but wasnt aware of his generalship. What did he do in the field? Who is Sabutai? The only Sabutai I know of is the thief from Conan the Barbarian. Lee is another one I debated on because of his Gettysburg debacle. Longstreet urged him to be offense in strategy but defensive in tactics. He did not listen. However, for holding the Confederacy together for so long, he DOES deserve to be on the list.



valdor17 -> (9/18/2001 7:59:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Les the Sarge 9-1:
Everyone forgets the guy(s) that do the great deeds but dont get the press. Anyone remember the Limey General that presided over one of the greatest advances in modern warfare, then they steal his units for Greece and Rommel shows up.
Hmm...that would be O'Connor--who ends up getting himself captured by the Germans!



troopie -> (9/18/2001 7:29:00 PM)

Subatai was Genghis Khan's general in chief. I would add Chinsan Bayan, Kublai's general, and Wallenstein, a masterful logician and tactician who had the misfortune to come up against Gustavus Adolphus. And James Graham, Marquess of Montrose. Montrose frequent won battles against armies several times the size of his own. troopie



Tom1939 -> (9/18/2001 7:33:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Grumble:
Great list, I would humbly add: Saladin, Arabian 1100 CE
Ziskos, John Magyar 15th Century(?)
Gustavus Adolphus, Swedish 16th Century [ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: Grumble ]
Hi! You mean Hunyadi János of Hungary? He was our greatest, and I think he scored the only world historically important victory of the hungarians. He beat up the turks real bad in 1456 by Nádorfehérvár (now:Belgrad). It was the most important place in our southern defence, and the turks went in with a brute force (about 150.000) and lot of artillery. All Hunyadi had was the garrison (if I remember rightly less then 8000, they were the real soilders) and a small badly equipped army of about 30.000 I think (they were only peasants really). And he really beat the turks badly (he shoted them to peaces with their own guns he captured). The big succses was achieved without western help who came as usual a bit late. Luckily for the turks Hunyadi died shortly after the victory in pest (black death) because of the many unburried corpes. The turks did not have a great attack on us for 70 years. So we stopped the turks (a great power then), and saved Europe for a while. Thats why they gong at the churches at 12.00.



Dan in Toledo -> (9/18/2001 8:52:00 PM)

Tom: wow I hadnt heard of that battle; interesting info--thanks!!



kurtbj -> (9/25/2001 7:06:00 PM)

'Vo Nguyen Giap' should be on the list. Not many people who could have beaten modern day trained armies by using far inferior equipment. His work with logistics was truly unbelievable as well. An all round expert.



Drex -> (9/27/2001 2:45:00 AM)

Here's a couple more: Gaius Marius and our own Gen. Winfield Scott (who was admired by Wellington).



Tombstone -> (9/27/2001 2:06:00 PM)

General Giap is the reason why people think wars can be won on will alone. Without him Vietnam wouldn't have made it like it did, and people wouldn't be thinking the same things about Afghanistan they do. His efforts are what put the belief that an enemy defending their territory against a rich outside aggressor cannot be defeated. His contribution to the history of warfare is pretty significant. And for many a nation, I imagine, quite inspirational. Unfortunately, not every small country struggling against a larger one has a Giap, or a Ho Chi Min for that matter. Tomo



AbsntMndedProf -> (9/28/2001 10:33:00 PM)

Among the generals of WW II, George Marshall has to be considered among the greats. He coordinated the U.S. military campaigns with our allies in Europe and Asia, dealing with U.S. and allied generals and politicians with their own agendas and personalities, and successfully planned the 'Marshall Plan' which did much to save much of Europe from economic colapse and incursions by the communists following the war. (Interestingly, George Marshall was accused of being a communist sympathizer by Sen. Joseph McCarthy.) Eric Maietta



samba_liten -> (9/29/2001 12:31:00 AM)

How about those Japanese generals from the sengouko jidai(sp?)?
Tokugawa Ieyasu and two others whose names escape me at the moment.



kurtbj -> (9/29/2001 12:52:00 AM)

I think you mean 'Takeda Shingen' and 'Hideyoshi', both famous Japanese Generals/Leaders.



halstein -> (9/29/2001 2:36:00 AM)

Ziskos, John Magyar 15th Century. Is this Jan Zizka, the Bohemian hussite leader?



Drex -> (9/29/2001 3:11:00 AM)

How about Jan Sobieski of Poland who saved Vienna (and Europe) from the Turks?



halstein -> (9/29/2001 3:13:00 AM)

And here is my list, of my 10 favorites, by the way.
Alexander the Great
Belisarius
Gustavus Adolphus
Hannibal
Marius
Lee (Robert E.)
Scipio
Subotai
Wellington
Zhukov Yes, this list is "Ancient heavy", and I could have put in a lot more.



Ranger-75 -> (9/29/2001 4:43:00 AM)

Dan, O'Connor was captured in 1941, whereafter the British offered the Germans about 30 captured Italian generals in exchange. Naturally, the Germans refused, but O'Connor was eventually repatriated and saw service in 1944-45. If O'connor wasn't captured, Montgomery might never have attained the stature that he did..... US General Gavin deserves to be added to the list. He took over in Korea after "Dugout Doug" MacArthur weas booted by President Truman. Gavin (I think it was him) turned the demoralized US Army around in a matter of weeks, recapturing all of south Korea and pushing the Chinese back into North Korea. Gavin was airborne, by the way.. USMC General VangeGrift also deserves to be on the list. He was extremely effective in 1942-43 in the Pacific, often against superior odds. He was largely responsible for the development of the Marine's concept of "Marine Firepower" which serves them well to this day. Later Vandgrift was the Commandant of the Marine Corps. I don't know if he was airborne or not.. Lee belongs on the list, Jackson does not.



Marty 1 -> (9/29/2001 11:57:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Mike Santos:
Dan, US General Gavin deserves to be added to the list. He took over in Korea after "Dugout Doug" MacArthur weas booted by President Truman. Gavin (I think it was him) turned the demoralized US Army around in a matter of weeks, recapturing all of south Korea and pushing the Chinese back into North Korea. Gavin was airborne, by the way..
Wasn't it Ridgeway who took over in Korea?



New York Jets -> (9/29/2001 8:43:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Marty 1:
Wasn't it Ridgeway who took over in Korea?
Absolutelty. It was Matthew B. Ridegway not Gavin.



AbsntMndedProf -> (9/30/2001 2:11:00 AM)

Chris Trog posted:
Absolutelty. It was Matthew B. Ridegway not Gavin. I believe that around that time Gen. James Gavin, the past commander of the 82nd Airborn Division, was made the first CEO of the World Bank, and later went on to be the President of the research firm Arthur D. Little. At the time of his passing, he still had an office at Arthur D. Little's Acorn Park facility in Cambridge, Mass., where he worked as a consultant following his retirement. Eric Maietta



Dan in Toledo -> (10/1/2001 9:48:00 PM)

So lets figure this out. Everyone has named so many and why. ROMAN:
Julius Caesar campaign in Gaul
Scipio Africanus defeat of Hannibal at Zama BYZANTINE:
Belisarius reconquest of Carthage & Italy GREEK:
Alexander conquest of Achemanid Empire CARTHAGINIAN:
Hannibal AMERICAN/CONFEDERATE:
Washington defeat of the British
Lee keeping South in the war so long
T. Jackson Bull Run, Chancellorsville
Patton N. Africa, Italy, NW Europe
Vandegrift Guadalcanal
Marshall Marshall Plan
W. Scott defeat of Mexico 1846



Dan in Toledo -> (10/1/2001 10:20:00 PM)

So lets figure this out. Everyone has named so many and why. I think I have everyone from the list. Let me know if I missed them. The question is: who is the best (or at least the top 3)? Why? ROMAN:
Julius Caesar campaign in Gaul
Scipio Africanus defeat of Hannibal at Zama
Trajan conquest of Dacia
Gaius Marius ?? BYZANTINE:
Belisarius reconquest of Carthage & Italy GREEK:
Alexander conquest of Achemanid Empire
Thermistocles Salamis CARTHAGINIAN:
Hannibal perfomance in Punic Wars AMERICAN/CONFEDERATE:
Washington defeat of the British
Lee keeping South in the war so long
T. Jackson Bull Run, Chancellorsville
Patton N. Africa, Italy, NW Europe
Vandegrift Guadalcanal
Marshall Marshall Plan
W. Scott defeat of Mexico 1846
Swarzkopf defeat of Iraq 1991 ARAB/SARACEN:
Khalid conquest of N. Africa 630s
Saladin reconquest of Levant 1100s? MONGOL/MOGUL:
Tamerlane undefeated in building his empire
Sabutai Genghis' guy
Chinson Bayan Kublai's guy
Genghis Khan duh GERMAN:
Manstein east front 1943
Guderian east front 1941
Rommel France 1940, Africa SWEDISH/FINNISH:
Mannerheim defeat of Russians 1939/40
Gustavos Adolphus HUNGARIAN:
Hunyadi Janos defeat of Turks
Ziskos ?? BRITISH:
OConnor defeat of Italians 1940/41
Wellington defeat of Napoleon
Henry V i dont know? FRENCH:
Napoleon duh RUSSIAN:
Zhukov defeat of Germans 1941-45 POLISH:
Jon Sobieski saved Vienna from the Turks JAPANESE:
Yamashita defeat of British 1941
Takeda Shingen ??
Hidoyoshi ?? VIETNAMESE:
Giap defeat of Americans I DONT KNOW:
Wallenstein
James Graham
MY TOP 3:
3. Thomas "Stonewall" Jackson
2. Julius Caesar
1. Alexander the Great



Xcorps -> (10/2/2001 2:28:00 PM)

Chesty Puller was a good Marine, and a good Marine was he. (That wasn't intended to be sarcastic, nor was it an effort to make light of the topic, simply my favorite General, although most of his exploits were made prior to him having stars) [ October 02, 2001: Message edited by: Xcorps ]



Matthias -> (10/3/2001 3:09:00 AM)

How anyone can not include Patton as one of the greatest Generals of all time is beyond me. He marched his army over something like a hundred, a hundred fifty miles in three days, then beats the daylights out of the German forces encircling Bastogne. This feat is comparable to Hannibal's march over the Alps because it should never have happened. Both of these relied on the willpower of the two generals, as well as the loyalty of the men to those generals. That is a measure of true greatness in a general, the willingness of the troops to follow him. Of course, he also has to justify that trust with victories, a thing that both Hannibal and Patton achieved.



Drex -> (10/3/2001 3:12:00 AM)

Hi Dan. I agree with Julius and Alexander ( no-brainer) but Jackson did not live long enough to establish a career. He was a great tactician and his Valley Campaign was a masterpiece but he wasn't in the "game" long enough to be challenged by capable opponents. Now Scipio was never defeated in battle and he saved the Roman Empire from Hannibal and Carthage. Hannibal was a brilliant tactician but was out-smarted on the strategy end and was finally out-manuevered by Scipio so Hannibal should be eliminated from the list. I'm not too familiar with Trajan's exploits but I think they were too narrow and not long-lived in their effects.
  • Gaius Marius: He not only defeated the German tribes and kept them subjugated for a hundred years, he re-organized the roman army and developed it into a conquering machine.
  • Giap: I don't think he defeated the Americans. I think the Americans defeated the Americans in Vietnam.
  • Schwarzkopf: Why is he on this list? His only opponent was a joke.
  • Marshall: George Marshall was a great statesman but I don't think he led a field army in battle.
  • O'Connor: is limited by the fact that his only opponents were the Italians then he was captured so he never was able to become a great general that he might have.
  • Henry V: Henry only had Agincourt and while that was a great victory, it has short-term effects and I don't remember any more victories by Henry V. Not really a basis for being listed with Julis Ceasar, et.al.
  • Wallenstein: don't know too much about this guy but wasn't he defeated by Gustavus Adolphus? He was a famoos general but I wouldn't list him among the greats.
  • The rest of the list seems resonable.[/LIST]



    • Dan in Toledo -> (10/5/2001 9:35:00 PM)

    I think Patton was on the list but I forgot to add him to the final list by mistake. He definitely should be on the list. Someone else mentioned Swarzkopf. Personally I dont think he qualifies as one of the greatest of all time. He is fine general, sure but you are correct in that Iraq was a weak opponent. I was only listing everyone's ideas. Stonewall did have a short career but it was brilliant and busy. He won more battles in a few years than many other generals do in their whole careers.



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