RE: Manual inconsistency (Full Version)

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Don Bowen -> RE: Manual inconsistency (8/13/2009 4:48:56 AM)


Come on guys, I need a save. I can't set up a game and run it until Manila falls....



Sardaukar -> RE: Manual inconsistency (8/13/2009 6:37:33 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

4. Resetting home base to SF after base is captured -> subs trying to return there -> subs running out of fuel -> subs sinking because of accumulated sys damage.


From which base, and which scenario, please. There is code to try and find a nearby base of sufficient size and/or sufficient support units, with San Francisco is the default. Returning to San Francisco means the routine could not find anything else suitable.


Dec 8 start campaign.



Sardaukar -> RE: Manual inconsistency (8/13/2009 6:40:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Submarine warfare is not "unplayable" at all.


Well, if most of your subs end up heavily damaged by events you have little or no chance to influence, I think there is something wrong. Yes, I can play sub war, but casualties are very excessive in terms of sunk and damaged subs. Maybe there should be some toning down with surface gun attacks.

I wish I could add save here, but it's 2.54 megs and too big to upload.

Here are my sub losses so far:



[image]local://upfiles/4867/DBCF981E769E46358C0F270511E03C9C.jpg[/image]



Sardaukar -> RE: Manual inconsistency (8/13/2009 7:00:24 AM)

And I don't think these look like sustainable sub ops....





[image]local://upfiles/4867/856B5080196F4CBBA3F177E295A19B43.jpg[/image]



Sardaukar -> RE: Manual inconsistency (8/13/2009 7:00:58 AM)

More:



[image]local://upfiles/4867/A5E1E3FFF22D41558E9A5C77A7789519.jpg[/image]



Sardaukar -> RE: Manual inconsistency (8/13/2009 7:01:23 AM)

More:



[image]local://upfiles/4867/848D1F18185B407ABC6678CDC806A972.jpg[/image]



Sardaukar -> RE: Manual inconsistency (8/13/2009 7:01:53 AM)

And more:



[image]local://upfiles/4867/3F713235A2CC44B997F8BC05054227DA.jpg[/image]



Sardaukar -> RE: Manual inconsistency (8/13/2009 7:03:23 AM)

Note how many subs sport quite substantial damage...and also how many subs have run out of fuel on patrol. And those subs are not ones that set their home port to SF, these are operating from PH, Perth and Darwin...they just like to run dry and then come home with sails...



Sardaukar -> "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 10:28:09 AM)

"Return same route" problem.

I have this TF, it was Continuous Supply convoy, with waypoints. LA- PH - hex SE of Christmas I. - Suva.

However, when TF started to return, it did not follow the same route, but plotted course directly to LA, course was not passing hex just SE of Christmas Island or PH (where it was supposed to refuel). So taskforces seem not to obey "Return same route". See picture:

(I have save, but it is 2.6 MB and I cannot attach it here.)



[image]local://upfiles/4867/06A601B0255444FA9FB6146BF05F1D85.jpg[/image]



Don Bowen -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 1:35:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

"Return same route" problem.

(I have save, but it is 2.6 MB and I cannot attach it here.)



Attach it in Tech Support Forum



John Lansford -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 1:36:30 PM)

My S boats are becoming notorious for running out of fuel on the way home.  Apparently their captains can't calculate when they should abandon their patrol area and return to base because by the time they start for home they're already too short of fuel to get to Pearl, and a patrol around Eniwetok shouldn't be too far for them.

I've also had some of those short-legged Dutch boats run low on fuel but that's because I send them too far.  Not with the S boats though.



Don Bowen -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 4:11:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

My S boats are becoming notorious for running out of fuel on the way home.  Apparently their captains can't calculate when they should abandon their patrol area and return to base because by the time they start for home they're already too short of fuel to get to Pearl, and a patrol around Eniwetok shouldn't be too far for them.

I've also had some of those short-legged Dutch boats run low on fuel but that's because I send them too far.  Not with the S boats though.


This issue has already been addressed for Patch 1.



Sardaukar -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 4:33:13 PM)

Good news! Is there anything to be done to return the boats back to base before they have status "crippled", or to prevent them to rearm and return to patrol when damaged? I don't think subs should go back to patrol automatically if they have 20 sys, for example. I think smoke and damage still does increase their detection level.



Don Bowen -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 5:00:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Good news! Is there anything to be done to return the boats back to base before they have status "crippled", or to prevent them to rearm and return to patrol when damaged? I don't think subs should go back to patrol automatically if they have 20 sys, for example. I think smoke and damage still does increase their detection level.


There is code in the auto sub ops to prevent this. Are you running human controlled or computer controlled subs, and do you have a save just before a damaged ship refuels and returns to patrol?



Chad Harrison -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 5:02:57 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

My S boats are becoming notorious for running out of fuel on the way home.  Apparently their captains can't calculate when they should abandon their patrol area and return to base because by the time they start for home they're already too short of fuel to get to Pearl, and a patrol around Eniwetok shouldn't be too far for them.

I've also had some of those short-legged Dutch boats run low on fuel but that's because I send them too far.  Not with the S boats though.


This issue has already been addressed for Patch 1.


Great to see this. I just came to here to post the same problem. Keep up the great work fellas!



Sardaukar -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 5:09:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Good news! Is there anything to be done to return the boats back to base before they have status "crippled", or to prevent them to rearm and return to patrol when damaged? I don't think subs should go back to patrol automatically if they have 20 sys, for example. I think smoke and damage still does increase their detection level.


There is code in the auto sub ops to prevent this. Are you running human controlled or computer controlled subs, and do you have a save just before a damaged ship refuels and returns to patrol?


You might catch some in save I posted to Tech Support about TF not returning same route. I play 2-day turns vs AI, so there might be some in that, even though I usually try to check subs that are in port refuelling in every time I give orders and disband those showing "orange". What is the threshold for sub not to return to patrol? I remember at least one going back with 14 sys.

I control subs manually, setting reaction 6 and using "Patrol around target" exclusively. I'll post new save if I happen to notice it later today when at home.



Buck Beach -> Moved here Air Groups on Tankers (8/13/2009 5:22:10 PM)

Moved this here for response.

How do you load air groups on the tankers? Manual says Tankers are capable to handle this cargo, but I can't seem to do it.

Also in fooling around with the Editor to create a ship left out of the OOB (Don said it wasn't worth the effort and I can respect that) I have come across something curious. A tanker/AO has a Bulk Cargo Capacity and a liquid Cargo Capacity. When I populated both those fields with a figure (9000 each) then my AO came out with a gross capacity of 18000 consisting of a limit of 9000 each. This would be very cool if I were able to load fuel to the lower limit and then top of with an Air Group or even 9000 and 9000 supply- fuel limit.

BTW when I check out all the Tanker classes with the Editor, none have any Bulk Cargo Capacity.

Any answers, comments or thoughts?

I just tested a hypothetical scenario as it relates to the cargo/fuel aspect of this post. I added a 2000 capacity limit to the bulk cargo for the T2 class tankers with the Editor. I then formed a Cargo TF with one ship with the orders Load Cargo. It loaded the 2000 in cargo plus the liquid cargo limit. This type of mod will have to be further researched as to not overburden a vessel but it does open the door to some real life possibilities.

Except for the Air Group part of the above, future items I discover (if any) will be posted to the Mod thread.



foliveti -> RE: Moved here Air Groups on Tankers (8/13/2009 6:09:04 PM)

I thought the manual said that tankers could only load oil or fuel? Must have different things in different spots.



witpqs -> TF's setting their own destinations (8/13/2009 7:20:54 PM)

Have run into this many times up to July 1942. Do not have save file because I am not sure I ever caught it on the turn it actually occurred. Basically, a TF will 'remember' an old home port and set it as a destination all by itself at some random time. Have seen this affect many TF's at once, although (as mentioned) cannot be sure they all went wrong on the same turn.

Examples

A)

1 Create TF at Balboa.
2 Set Do Not Unload.
3 Load supplies.
4 When full:
5 Set home port to Noumea.
6 Set Return to Noumea.
7 Set a waypoint near Noumea.
8 When TF is on-map, set Unload at Destination (or whatever the wording is - the toggle of Do Not Unload).

Events:
- Notice that when the TF arrives at Noumea, it says 'unloading', home port is Noumea, and destination is Balboa.
- Also noticed along the way that a mouse-over of the TF shows 'unload at Balboa', even though opening the TF display shows home port Noumea and destination Noumea.

B)

1 Create TF at San Francisco.
2 Set Do Not Unload.
3 Load troops.
4 When full:
5 Set home port Lord Howe Island.
6 Set return to Lord Howe Island.
7 Set three waypoints for routing.
8 Prior to 3rd waypoint being reached:
9 Cancel waypoints.
10 Set return to Lord Howe Island.
11 Set home port to Sydney.
12 Set return to Sydney.
13 Set a waypoint near Sydney.
14 Set Unload at Destination (or whatever the wording is - the toggle of Do Not Unload).

Event:
- Notice that when TF arrives at Sydney, it says 'unloading', home port is Sydney, and destination is Lord Howe Island.

C)

1 An existing TF is at Pago Pago unloading, with home port of Pago Pago and destination of Pago Pago.
2 TF finishes unloading.
3 Set home port San Francisco.
4 Set return to San Francisco.
5 Set a waypoint to the east and south to avoid submarine danger areas.

Event:
- When checking TF part way to San Francisco, notice that destination has become Pago Pago and TF is proceeding back in that direction.


I have found this issue more than perhaps 3 dozen times to July 1942. Sometimes only one TF is noticed in error, sometimes 6 or 8 at a time. Do not know if multiple TF's go wrong on same turn or if they accumulate. The examples given are just examples, not all occurrences.



Sardaukar -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 7:23:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Good news! Is there anything to be done to return the boats back to base before they have status "crippled", or to prevent them to rearm and return to patrol when damaged? I don't think subs should go back to patrol automatically if they have 20 sys, for example. I think smoke and damage still does increase their detection level.


There is code in the auto sub ops to prevent this. Are you running human controlled or computer controlled subs, and do you have a save just before a damaged ship refuels and returns to patrol?


You might catch some in save I posted to Tech Support about TF not returning same route. I play 2-day turns vs AI, so there might be some in that, even though I usually try to check subs that are in port refuelling in every time I give orders and disband those showing "orange". What is the threshold for sub not to return to patrol? I remember at least one going back with 14 sys.

I control subs manually, setting reaction 6 and using "Patrol around target" exclusively. I'll post new save if I happen to notice it later today when at home.



Here is one example, save is in that Tech Support thread. As you can see, sub is happily rearmed, refuelled and tries to sail back to patrol area with 14 sys dmg:



[image]local://upfiles/4867/A644DFD6B856407AA986ACE7F8ACB95D.jpg[/image]



Sardaukar -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 7:31:09 PM)

And another problem shown in same save. Subs do not return from patrol zone in time, making them run out of fuel before they get to base. In this case there are 2 S-boats that were patrolling near Rabaul, home port Brisbane. Sub in pic has fuel for 23 hexes and base is 28 hexes away. Near it, under the TF screen would be another S-boat (S-34) with 21/23. So both of these boats will gather extra sys damage for running out of fuel.



[image]local://upfiles/4867/5313A522F4944D6CA494BAC82F63E077.jpg[/image]



Don Bowen -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 7:35:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Here is one example, save is in that Tech Support thread. As you can see, sub is happily rearmed, refuelled and tries to sail back to patrol area with 14 sys dmg:



We are going to address this issue.



Don Bowen -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 7:35:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

And another problem shown in same save. Subs do not return from patrol zone in time, making them run out of fuel before they get to base.


This issue has already been addressed.



Sardaukar -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 7:36:10 PM)

Excellent! [&o]



witpqs -> PT Boats (8/13/2009 7:50:16 PM)

PT boats might be too effective. In PI and DEI the various USN, RN, and to a lesser degree Dutch PT boats scored many torpedo hits - probably around three dozen different ships, some with multiple hits.

Although they hit one or two DD's, overall they had very poor performance against surface combat groups.

Even got Soryu with 3 torps three hexes off of Pearl Harbor. Got tired of KB hanging around and sent the PT's out on day 4. That was the third day the KB stayed in exactly the same hex, BTW.



Don Bowen -> RE: TF's setting their own destinations (8/13/2009 7:57:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Have run into this many times up to July 1942. Do not have save file because I am not sure I ever caught it on the turn it actually occurred. Basically, a TF will 'remember' an old home port and set it as a destination all by itself at some random time. Have seen this affect many TF's at once, although (as mentioned) cannot be sure they all went wrong on the same turn.

Examples

A)

1 Create TF at Balboa.
2 Set Do Not Unload.
3 Load supplies.
4 When full:
5 Set home port to Noumea.
6 Set Return to Noumea.
7 Set a waypoint near Noumea.
8 When TF is on-map, set Unload at Destination (or whatever the wording is - the toggle of Do Not Unload).

Events:
- Notice that when the TF arrives at Noumea, it says 'unloading', home port is Noumea, and destination is Balboa.
- Also noticed along the way that a mouse-over of the TF shows 'unload at Balboa', even though opening the TF display shows home port Noumea and destination Noumea.

B)

1 Create TF at San Francisco.
2 Set Do Not Unload.
3 Load troops.
4 When full:
5 Set home port Lord Howe Island.
6 Set return to Lord Howe Island.
7 Set three waypoints for routing.
8 Prior to 3rd waypoint being reached:
9 Cancel waypoints.
10 Set return to Lord Howe Island.
11 Set home port to Sydney.
12 Set return to Sydney.
13 Set a waypoint near Sydney.
14 Set Unload at Destination (or whatever the wording is - the toggle of Do Not Unload).

Event:
- Notice that when TF arrives at Sydney, it says 'unloading', home port is Sydney, and destination is Lord Howe Island.

C)

1 An existing TF is at Pago Pago unloading, with home port of Pago Pago and destination of Pago Pago.
2 TF finishes unloading.
3 Set home port San Francisco.
4 Set return to San Francisco.
5 Set a waypoint to the east and south to avoid submarine danger areas.

Event:
- When checking TF part way to San Francisco, notice that destination has become Pago Pago and TF is proceeding back in that direction.


I have found this issue more than perhaps 3 dozen times to July 1942. Sometimes only one TF is noticed in error, sometimes 6 or 8 at a time. Do not know if multiple TF's go wrong on same turn or if they accumulate. The examples given are just examples, not all occurrences.




No way I'm even going to read thru this one without saves. Swamped.



witpqs -> RE: TF's setting their own destinations (8/13/2009 8:07:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

No way I'm even going to read thru this one without saves. Swamped.


Save it for later. Just giving you a running description so you can relate to what is happening. I'm sure other people will run into the same thing, so this item will start your data set.



witpqs -> RE: "Return same route" problem. (8/13/2009 8:29:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

And another problem shown in same save. Subs do not return from patrol zone in time, making them run out of fuel before they get to base.


This issue has already been addressed.


Excellent.

BTW, I have seen the same thing with regard to torpedoes - I've noticed a sub or two stay on station with no torpedoes, but I have definitely seen subs return when out of torpedoes. I haven't yet noticed any pattern.



witpqs -> RE: TF's setting their own destinations (8/13/2009 9:39:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

Have run into this many times up to July 1942. Do not have save file because I am not sure I ever caught it on the turn it actually occurred. Basically, a TF will 'remember' an old home port and set it as a destination all by itself at some random time. Have seen this affect many TF's at once, although (as mentioned) cannot be sure they all went wrong on the same turn.

Examples

A)

1 Create TF at Balboa.
2 Set Do Not Unload.
3 Load supplies.
4 When full:
5 Set home port to Noumea.
6 Set Return to Noumea.
7 Set a waypoint near Noumea.
8 When TF is on-map, set Unload at Destination (or whatever the wording is - the toggle of Do Not Unload).

Events:
- Notice that when the TF arrives at Noumea, it says 'unloading', home port is Noumea, and destination is Balboa.
- Also noticed along the way that a mouse-over of the TF shows 'unload at Balboa', even though opening the TF display shows home port Noumea and destination Noumea.

B)

1 Create TF at San Francisco.
2 Set Do Not Unload.
3 Load troops.
4 When full:
5 Set home port Lord Howe Island.
6 Set return to Lord Howe Island.
7 Set three waypoints for routing.
8 Prior to 3rd waypoint being reached:
9 Cancel waypoints.
10 Set return to Lord Howe Island.
11 Set home port to Sydney.
12 Set return to Sydney.
13 Set a waypoint near Sydney.
14 Set Unload at Destination (or whatever the wording is - the toggle of Do Not Unload).

Event:
- Notice that when TF arrives at Sydney, it says 'unloading', home port is Sydney, and destination is Lord Howe Island.

C)

1 An existing TF is at Pago Pago unloading, with home port of Pago Pago and destination of Pago Pago.
2 TF finishes unloading.
3 Set home port San Francisco.
4 Set return to San Francisco.
5 Set a waypoint to the east and south to avoid submarine danger areas.

Event:
- When checking TF part way to San Francisco, notice that destination has become Pago Pago and TF is proceeding back in that direction.


I have found this issue more than perhaps 3 dozen times to July 1942. Sometimes only one TF is noticed in error, sometimes 6 or 8 at a time. Do not know if multiple TF's go wrong on same turn or if they accumulate. The examples given are just examples, not all occurrences.




No way I'm even going to read thru this one without saves. Swamped.



OK, I have a set of three save games chronicling one such episode. Do you want them emailed, etc - just say how you want them.

Save slot 004 - 42/7/6:

Shows TF 75 at hex 134,65; TF display shows:

destination = Noumea
home port = Noumea
and a waypoint is assigned (near Noumea).

However, the mouse-over shows:

TaskForce 75
Overcast
mission:Cargo
destination:Noumea
unload at:Balboa
supply:4550
xAK Alcoa Pioneer

Save slot 007 - 42/7/9:

Shows the same TF 75 just before the turn resolution when it makes port at Noumea. Data same as above.

Save slot 015 - 42/7/10:

Shows the same TF 75 at Noumea (just after the 42/7/9 turn resolution). The TF display shows that the destination has been changed to Balboa, home port is still Noumea, and the TF is unloading.

Please advise on how to send the save games to you.



pad152 -> RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues (8/13/2009 9:43:07 PM)

The DD Schley (3682) is showing 200 torpedoes in it's left side launcher. I have another post with the same issue with the DD Chew (3681) also a Wicker Class DD in another game.

[image]local://upfiles/105/2880B7F82424429295976F6E0447A0E7.jpg[/image]



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