Pilots Don't Lie! (Full Version)

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Mark W Carver -> Pilots Don't Lie! (6/3/2002 7:42:42 PM)

I caught this off of the WWII email list...

June 3, 1942: The Japanese Invasion Group is spotted by land based aircraft from Midway. An unsuccessful raid by USAAF B-17s is mounted.
Amplifying the above:
Preliminary action begins in the Battle of Midway. Nine B-17 Flying Fortresses, flying out of Midway Island, attack five large transports 570 miles (912 km) off Midway, claiming 5 hits and several near misses; actually, [B]they hit nothing[/B]. Seven other B-17s leave Oahu, Territory of Hawaii and fly to Midway. (Jack McKillop)


... sound familiar guys?:eek:



Drex -> (6/3/2002 7:47:00 PM)

But they might have got a week-end pass for the report.:D



brisd -> a similar battle report (6/4/2002 12:05:24 AM)

During my campaign as the Japanese in October 42 I am invading Lungaville and had pretty much suppressed the local airbases except Noumea. I was smiling at my great success and then I had a flight of 3 B-17's from Noumea attack a CV tf. My CAP damaged one and destroyed 1, so 2 B-17's attacked the Kaga and the combat results showed a 500 lb hit! I was steaming, then checked her the next turn. No damage, those flyboys sure do lie! :p



bill_k -> Pilots Don't Lie (6/4/2002 8:07:28 AM)

I can understand the reports filed by the pilots of 5 hits, 1 probable and four near misses. Bombing from altitudes of 8,10 and 12 thousand feet with their perspective distorted and tons of water spouting skyward you have to be a gifted observer to tell the difference between a hit or a miss.

Bill Keys



JohnK -> (6/4/2002 1:18:56 PM)

I've read (and actually confimed by looking at some old newspapers) that immediately after Midway, it was basically reported in the US the battle was won by Army Air Force land based air, and the Navy assisted.

There was an unbelievable "spin machine" in the AAF creating worship for the B-17. Also, in an even more notable incident, a B-17 supposedly sank the BB Haruna in the Phillipines; widely reported in the media, was really seen as the first "victory,", not the Tokyo raid. I think the B-17 in question crashed or was destroyed and the pilot got a Medal of Honor; I believe they actually just damaged a destroyer.

And the most inflated kill stats of the war were B-17 gunners in Europe; if their claims were true, they were shooting down the ENTIRE Luftwaffe fighter force in Western Europe every two weeks :-) What happened was that B-17 losses were so bad, they eliminated all investigation and standards for gunner claims (as compared to fighter claims). So everyone who fired at a plane that was destroyed got a "kill."

In reality, in Europe, hardly any LW fighters were shot down by B-17 gunners. It was almost entirely the fighter escort, when they finally got them.



bill_k -> Pilot's Don't Lie (6/4/2002 6:13:54 PM)

Where did you come up with your claims about LW planes shot down. I think the B17 you are referring to in the Pacific was the one flown by Colin Kelly. I would be interested in what books you have read on the subject. The B17 wasn't noted for it's expoits in the Pacific, the European theatre was it's stomping grounds. As far as the number of aircraft shot down, I would think the escorts should have more kills, that was their job, where as the B17 sole purpose was bombing, shooting down fighters was secondary to the mission and in self defense. I have looked everywhere to get the fiqures for kills during the war but have not found anything and I have tons of books on the B17, 8th Air Force,etc.



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