Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (Full Version)

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Romdanzer -> Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/28/2009 4:41:43 PM)

Hi Everyone,

I wanted to ask if it would be possible to start making/collecting suggestions for a possible expansion set?? :-D – The game release is not even finished yet and already talk about an expansion? Why yes!

From reading threads in this forum it is obvious that 2by3 games cannot incorporate every single feature that is in theory possible into the game all at once with this release due to understandable programming resource restrictions. In addition many players are asking questions for this or that feature and time and again only to have to repeat the answer: “not doable due to development resource restrictions”.

I am a big fan of WIR, Matrix and 2by3 games and I would therefore like to start a thread for possible features to include in such an expansion of “War in the East”. This would give all those players wishing for these features hope for inclusion in a future release and channel their inquires in this respect, cleaning up the forum in a way. I would still buy and support the current release wholeheartedly because obviously it is a major stepping stone towards these other features and give 2by3 games the necessary cash-flow to keep up the good development work. Finally of course this first release will still be a very fun game, I’m sure, concentrating on the most important “essentials”. Follow-up expansions are after all a normal thing with these types of games/market. And anyone who would not want these "expansion-features" could stick with the original.


If I where to start up such a list I would suggest:

1) Option for a-historical development of a Western and Mediterranean Front, according to the units placed therein by the Axis player (i.e. somewhat along the lines of what it was like in WIR – OKW and OKH where also responsible for these fronts after all….)

2) Option for a simple free production system for the Axis player - albeit with understandable restrictions to not make too gamey results possible (you can’t go from producing P38t’s directly to King-Tigers and you can’t just re-gear Aircraft production industry to start making Tanks in a moment’s notice; that requires a lot of time and effort as in reality industrial production is not really all that flexible).

3) Option for a possibly a research and development system? - after all the development and production of the Tiger and Panther where inspired in large-part by experiences of OKH on the eastern Front in 1941 i.e. wished-for and driven to production by OKH Generals as well – therefore see 2) above…

4) Option for any type of simple political system? – for example to increase efforts by allies to support the war effort according to war-results…increased lend-lease or increased movements by the Finns – these could also just be simple toggles when certain objectives are achieved.

5) Anything else?


What in this list would actually be choosen for inclusion in such an expansion is of course another question.

I hope readers of this post will understand my intention to support the current development of “War in the East” with such a list and make it better for everyone involved.

Romdanzer



Jison -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/28/2009 7:40:01 PM)

My only suggestion and biggest wish is that the developer stay on course and stay true to history - this is after all a historical simulation of Operation Barbarossa if Im not misstaking. I dont want even a remote chance to produce King Tigers in 1942, I dont want to take on the role of Albert Speer, I dont want to be in charge of research and development - this is a historical wargame, and as such it needs to be true to what actually happened. Just give me what my historical counterpart had, no more no less.

Jison



Romdanzer -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/28/2009 8:04:36 PM)

"..I dont want even a remote chance to produce King Tigers in 1942..."

I agree with this completely ..... on the other hand the whole reason why the Tiger and the Panther where developed was because of expieriences by OKW/OKH in Russia in 1941 and the resulting requests by them for such tanks. So yes while these generals did not direct the entire production of the country the generals did indeed have the possibility to issue "wishes" and "desires" for specific weapon systems and their priority production. Which was then indeed more or less implemented.

Weapon system development, production and prioritization was and is not completely independent and free of influence from the upper commanding generals in the field with their battlefield expieriences. The US army has very similar occurances...and that happend in WW2 with the Wehrmacht as well.

Now how such a thing (i.e. the possibility to issue "weapon system production and development wishes which are more or less implemented over time as best as realistically possible") could be implemented is another question....but that's what I mean with a "simple and limited" production system.

Finally I'll give you an example of a "what-if" situation for such a limited influence by OKW/OKH on production for the game:

The Tiger and Panther where although in their abilities good tanks, very expensive to produce in comparison to the Panzer IV for example, as they where so complicated in their construction. The result was that resources where devoted to their production which maybe could have been better devoted elsewhere. For example would it have been better to just to try to mass-produce the Panzer IVG at the time? Instead of wasting resources on the Tiger and Panther? A player could decide to issue such a corresponding production proritization wish and see how he fares with it in 1943. Relying on his ability to overcome the sowjects with mass-numbers of Panzer IVG's instead of limited amounts of Tigers and Panthers.....that would depend of course on how much "cheaper" the Panzer IVG is than the Tiger or Panther. But the cost and actual production is of course not under his control -he just see's the amounts of Tanks that arrive in his armies more or less according to his wishes and the resources that are available.

That scenario is not possible without such a system.

Romdanzer



Jison -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/28/2009 8:35:12 PM)

"on the other hand the whole reason why the Tiger and the Panther where developed was because of expieriences by OKW/OKH in Russia in 1941 and the resulting requests by them for such tanks. So yes while these generals did not direct the entire production of the country the generals did indeed have the possibility to issue "wishes" and "desires" for specific weapon systems and their priority production."

Yes, I agree - but these 'requests' are already in the game, hence the Tigers and Panthers are going in to production eventually. Thats the beauty of being true to history.

You guys scare me with all this talk of free production, political systems and wishes to control events on other theaters - the worst case scenario for me is that the developers actually starts to listen to you... [;)] Im a humble man - for me it is enough if 'War in the East' will be about... well... the war in the east. [:D]

Jison



Romdanzer -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/28/2009 8:43:56 PM)

"Yes, I agree - but these 'requests' are already in the game, hence the Tigers and Panthers are going in to production eventually. Thats the beauty of being true to history. "

But what if I DON'T want to have Tigers and Panthers? - see my post above which I modified....that is the point - Besides being realistically historical I want to also to be able to make DIFFERENT decisions than where made by OKW/OKH at the time, including which "production requests" are issued at what point.

Romdanzer



blam0 -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/28/2009 10:28:13 PM)

From a different perspective, I find the lack of any ability to modify production a bit of a disappointment. I really enjoy the additional complexity.  Waaay back in the WIR days, we had the ability to sacrifice some current production, in order to POSSIBLY get an equipment type earlier.  I enjoy this type of strategic challenge.  Additionally, playing the Germans, it gives you the opportunity to standardize on equipment types, as Romdanzer alluded to above.

In my view, wargaming isn't about reproducing history.  We know what happened.  It's all about the "what if" (the novelist Harry Turtledove has made a living on this). Of course we want accuracy so that we can challenge ourselves, but the more literal accuracy we have, the fewer "what if" scenarios we can explore.  This is what WiTP so great.  As a Japanese player, you knew you were doomed if you didn't win by '43 at the very latest.  But you could alter so many inputs into the game that you could make yourself feel like you had a chance.

All of that being said, I'm OK with the idea that there is no production in this version--but if there is an "update" please! I will have faith but not patience while I wait for Gary, Joel, and their team to get this game to us and make sure it's "right" when it gets here.



Romdanzer -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/29/2009 12:47:23 PM)


Hi blamO

You are taking the words right out of my mouth - those are exactly my sentiments as well.

For this Version I am OK with how 2by3 made their decisions; I can understand them - but I too would like an "update" or "expansion" however you would like to call it. And I would just like to open up an discussion for such a possible "update" or "expansion".

The additional beauty of such a thing would be that there would be 2 versions of War in the East - the original one for the purists who do not want the expansion features and one with expansion features - essentially giving everyone the game they favor.

Romdanzer



wodin -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/29/2009 2:11:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jison

My only suggestion and biggest wish is that the developer stay on course and stay true to history - this is after all a historical simulation of Operation Barbarossa if Im not misstaking. I dont want even a remote chance to produce King Tigers in 1942, I dont want to take on the role of Albert Speer, I dont want to be in charge of research and development - this is a historical wargame, and as such it needs to be true to what actually happened. Just give me what my historical counterpart had, no more no less.

Jison


I agree.



Capitaine -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/29/2009 2:16:55 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jison

"on the other hand the whole reason why the Tiger and the Panther where developed was because of expieriences by OKW/OKH in Russia in 1941 and the resulting requests by them for such tanks. So yes while these generals did not direct the entire production of the country the generals did indeed have the possibility to issue "wishes" and "desires" for specific weapon systems and their priority production."

Yes, I agree - but these 'requests' are already in the game, hence the Tigers and Panthers are going in to production eventually. Thats the beauty of being true to history.

You guys scare me with all this talk of free production, political systems and wishes to control events on other theaters - the worst case scenario for me is that the developers actually starts to listen to you... [;)] Im a humble man - for me it is enough if 'War in the East' will be about... well... the war in the east. [:D]

Jison


+1



kafka -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/29/2009 2:48:11 PM)

quote:

You guys scare me with all this talk of free production, political systems and wishes to control events on other theaters - the worst case scenario for me is that the developers actually starts to listen to you... Im a humble man - for me it is enough if 'War in the East' will be about... well... the war in the east.


I disagree, I would suggest making this feature (even on a rudimentary level) optionable to the player, so no one would be forced to play it if he wants to just repeat the course of history



Barthheart -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/29/2009 3:10:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kafka
...
On the other hand I'm simply tired of people trying to tell me how I should play a game [:-]


I don't think anyone is trying to tell you how to play a game. The ARE telling you that this game does not play the way you want it to.
I do think that you are trying to tell the developers how to design their game. Since they have clearly stated that production is fixed, I'm not sure what good it does to beat this dead horse so much? [sm=00000028.gif] (closest smilie I could find)



Capt Cliff -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/29/2009 7:06:51 PM)

I think some of the point can be shown by the fact the Gunderian spotted the T-34 while on a trade mission or miltary exchange mission to Russia prior to the invasion. He raise an alert but got shouted down that those "inferior" Russki's couldn't make anything like that. Well what if "they" would have listened to Gunderian and the Panther and Tiger appears 6 to 9 months earlier??? There are a number of nice "what if's" that could be options and not available by adding a production system to the game. Adding a production system to the game is a complexity I don't mind but it also adds a lead time/ECD that I do mind!! Hey ask Santa!!



Stryder -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/29/2009 7:10:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jison

"on the other hand the whole reason why the Tiger and the Panther where developed was because of expieriences by OKW/OKH in Russia in 1941 and the resulting requests by them for such tanks. So yes while these generals did not direct the entire production of the country the generals did indeed have the possibility to issue "wishes" and "desires" for specific weapon systems and their priority production."

Yes, I agree - but these 'requests' are already in the game, hence the Tigers and Panthers are going in to production eventually. Thats the beauty of being true to history.

You guys scare me with all this talk of free production, political systems and wishes to control events on other theaters - the worst case scenario for me is that the developers actually starts to listen to you... [;)] Im a humble man - for me it is enough if 'War in the East' will be about... well... the war in the east. [:D]

Jison


+1

quote:

t misstaking. I dont want even a remote chance to produce King Tigers in 1942, I dont want to take on the role of Albert Speer, I dont want to be in charge of research and development - this is a historical wargame, and as such it needs to be true to what actually happened. Just give me what my historical counterpart had, no more no less.


I agree as well... I don't want the production feature either.



kafka -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/29/2009 9:19:15 PM)

quote:

Since they have clearly stated that production is fixed, I'm not sure what good it does to beat this dead horse so much


did you read the thread's topic? [8|]




paullus99 -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/30/2009 10:37:25 AM)

I really don't think you'll see Panther's or Tigers any faster (maybe a few months - but it takes time to set up entirely new production lines) - now, give me high-velocity 50mm guns on my Pz-III & IV to deal with the T-34, and I'd be a very happy man.

This change-over in the Pz-III production was supposed to have taken place before June 22nd - I believe once again Hitler got involved.



Romdanzer -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/31/2009 3:27:38 PM)

Well maybe some people are not quite getting the point of this thread - I did NOT intend an either/or decision.... I intended a compromise of having TWO games in the following fashion (somewhere down the road after further development has been performed):

1) Have an ORIGINAL "War in the East" game as announced and currently being developed and released by 2by3 games

AND AFTERWARDS

2) AFTER further development work have an expansion set for "War in the East" with additional features for those who want them

That is the original question/idea - i.e. there would be a game for both types of players...the ones who do not want expanision features and ones who do.

Romdanzer



Stryder -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/31/2009 3:34:58 PM)

I like your thoughts.... I'd personally like to see the War in the West; rather than an expansion of this game... I think it would be a better economic bet for 2BY3 also... a bit more ROI in selling a game that everyone would love to see versus adding features to an existing  game that may not be compelling enough for everyone to buy as an expansion pack..



kafka -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (7/31/2009 3:44:58 PM)

well, I think your intension has been made clear by the thread title. On topic, just to give an idea of what this is about: In the german forum strategycon most people commenting on wite have expressed their disappointment about the design decision by 2by3 not to include even a minimal control of production. So, there seems to be a good deal of people who would like to have such a feature. And, though I understand and accept the reasons behind the design decision by 2by3, I respectfully put into consideration that I lost a great deal of interest in the game and, on the other side, just try keeping at it by suggesting to introduce the so wanted feature in a possible future expansion 



knilli -> RE: Suggestions for possible expansion of War in the East? (8/1/2009 12:52:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kafka

well, I think your intension has been made clear by the thread title. On topic, just to give an idea of what this is about: In the german forum strategycon most people commenting on wite have expressed their disappointment about the design decision by 2by3 not to include even a minimal control of production. So, there seems to be a good deal of people who would like to have such a feature. And, though I understand and accept the reasons behind the design decision by 2by3, I respectfully put into consideration that I lost a great deal of interest in the game and, on the other side, just try keeping at it by suggesting to introduce the so wanted feature in a possible future expansion 



yep, would be very nice



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