US entry question

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obermeister -> US entry question (7/30/2009 3:46:32 PM)
Here's an interesting rules as written / as coded question. I'm not sure that the rules are real specific about what happens in this case. 1. Germany and Japan are at war with the Commonwealth. Netherlands are neutral. 2. Germany declares war on the Netherlands. Commonwealth takes control (aligns) the Netherlands. Does the US get to roll only for the entry effect of Germany declaring war? Or does this also count as a Japanese declaration of war? More critically, does the US get an extra chit each turn from Japan being at war with the Netherlands?

Froonp -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 4:10:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obermeister Here's an interesting rules as written / as coded question. I'm not sure that the rules are real specific about what happens in this case. 1. Germany and Japan are at war with the Commonwealth. Netherlands are neutral. 2. Germany declares war on the Netherlands. Commonwealth takes control (aligns) the Netherlands. Does the US get to roll only for the entry effect of Germany declaring war? Or does this also count as a Japanese declaration of war? More critically, does the US get an extra chit each turn from Japan being at war with the Netherlands? I'd say : No US Entry roll for Japan, but no surprise effect either. This one I'm not sure. No extra chit either, as there was no DoW fro Japan to the Netherlands. This one I'm less sure.

obermeister -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 4:49:38 PM)
Does it strike you as odd that Japan could avoid a massive US entry hit in this way? Especially consider what would happen if Japan had DCW'd the Commonwealth if the Netherlands had been aligned PRIOR to that point. According to 9.2 in RAW: "a declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country that major power has aligned", so there would be a US entry effect for Netherlands in that case. So if 1. Germany DCW Netherlands, 2. Japan DCW Commonwealth, there is a US Entry for both commmonwealth and Netherlands for Japan. But if 1 and 2 are reversed then there is only US entry for Commonwealth and not Netherlands. That doesn't seem broken to you?

sajbalk -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 4:57:56 PM)
Situation: Germany and Japan at war with CW. Germany DOW Netherlands; CW aligns Netherlands. First, Japan did not DOW the Netherlands, so no USE roll for that. Second, the US does get the German entry roll, a 3, I think. Third, there is no extra US chit each turn. The US gets a chit IF Japan has DOWed someone. Per (1) Japan did not. Is this unfair for the Allies? Well, Japan is already at war with CW which, assuming Japan DOWed, is 28 plus 1 chit per turn. The Allies, in this instance, really should have aligned Netherlands with France or Free France, or even an active Russia. This will ensure problems for the Axis and/or additional chits for the Allies.

sajbalk -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 5:01:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obermeister Does it strike you as odd that Japan could avoid a massive US entry hit in this way? Especially consider what would happen if Japan had DCW'd the Commonwealth if the Netherlands had been aligned PRIOR to that point. According to 9.2 in RAW: "a declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country that major power has aligned", so there would be a US entry effect for Netherlands in that case. So if 1. Germany DCW Netherlands, 2. Japan DCW Commonwealth, there is a US Entry for both commmonwealth and Netherlands for Japan. But if 1 and 2 are reversed then there is only US entry for Commonwealth and not Netherlands. That doesn't seem broken to you? I think you are misinterpreting the rule. If Japan DOWs the CW which has previously aligned the Netherlands, there is only 1 USE effect, for a DOW on the CW. You cannot DOW seperately a previously aligned minor. For example, if Japan DOWs the CW, there is not a seperate entry role for Japan also DOWing a previoulsy aligned Belgium. As to your second question, the Allies should align Netherlands to France if Germany DOWs it after Japan is at war with the CW. This forces a Japanese DOW on France.

obermeister -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 5:31:05 PM)
I'm just reading the rule as it is written. If a "declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country that major power has aligned", I'm not seeing anything in there that says there wouldn't be a US entry effect for those DoW's on those minors.

micheljq -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 6:40:10 PM)
Japan already at war with Commonwealth, yes 1 more U.S. chit per turn already. It won't be long before U.S. enters the war anyway. Assuming that Japan did DOW Commonwealth and not the reverse.

Extraneous -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 6:59:03 PM)
micheljg is correct. quote: Original: WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf 20, 31 & 32 Major Power declares war on neutral minor - roll once for each major power declaring war on this minor this impulse. Your major powers can declare war on major powers from the other side or on unaligned minor countries. You can’t declare war on • any major powers or minor countries on your side; or • a country you are already at war with; or • a minor country that is already controlled by a major power on the other side. However, a declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country aligned to that major power. The Netherlands East Indies is a minor country consisting of all the 1939 NEI-controlled hexes in the Bay of Bengal, Bismark Sea, East Indian Ocean, South China Sea and Timor Sea. Its capital is Batavia. The Netherlands is a minor country (RAW7scenario.pdf 29. 1936~1945 World Order of battle), and controls the NEI a minor country (WiFFE-RAW-7.0.pdf). power. quote: Original: wifchart.pdf US ENTRY ACTIONS 20. Axis declares war on 7: Poland, Spain, Turkey or any American country 5 (12) Belgium, Finland, Rumania, Sweden or Switzerland 5 (8) Other minor or Vichy France 5 (3) 33. Japan declares war on the CW, France or Netherlands (Ja) 3 & 5 (28) 3. The USA also picks 1 extra chit a turn for each action (except conquests by surrender). It must go into the marked entry pool. 5. Rolled once per city, major power, neutral minor country or search. 7. Place chit in Ja pool if Japan declares war, the Ge/It pool otherwise. The number in () is the roll needed for a chit for the Japan pool or Ge/It pool. Germany has made a DOW on the Netherlands (#20 Die roll 3). Japan has made a DOW on the CW (#33 die roll 28). Italy may DOW the Netherlands (#20 Die roll 3) or the NEI (#20 Die roll 3). The CW is at war with Japan and has aligned the Netherlands and its minor country the NEI. There is no additional US entry action for Japan because the CW has aligned the Netherlands and its minor country the NEI.

Extraneous -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 7:13:49 PM)
My question is: If the Japanese player had not DOWed the CW. Could the Japanese player DOW the unaligned minor country the NEI (#20 die roll 3) without DOWing the unaligned minor country the Netherlands (#33 die roll 28)?

brian brian -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 8:38:18 PM)
the NEI is never unaligned. it is aligned to the Netherlands at start, and the Netherlands controlling major power after a DoW on the Netherlands.

Froonp -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 8:40:04 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Extraneous My question is: If the Japanese player had not DOWed the CW. Could the Japanese player DOW the unaligned minor country the NEI (#20 die roll 3) without DOWing the unaligned minor country the Netherlands (#33 die roll 28)? No, same as you can't DoW Burma without Dowing the CW, or Algeria without DoWing France. The NEI is never "non aligned".

Froonp -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 8:43:19 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obermeister I'm just reading the rule as it is written. If a "declaration of war on a major power is also a declaration of war on every minor country that major power has aligned", I'm not seeing anything in there that says there wouldn't be a US entry effect for those DoW's on those minors. The FAQ says : ************************************* Q9.2-3> One DOW on a major power is also a DOW on each controlled minor. And only one roll is made on the US entry table for the one DOW on the major power. Correct. Date 30/01/1998 *************************************

obermeister -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 9:00:48 PM)
Ok, thanks for clearing that up. What about the following situation: 1. France has not been vichied and is at war with Germany. 2 Germany DCW Netherlands, France takes control of Netherlands. 3. Germany conquers Netherlands (but not NEI) and Vichies France. At this point NEI would either go Vichy or Free France, depending on the Vichy variant you are playing with. Say for the sake of argument that it goes Vichy. What are Japan's options regarding NEI at this point? There is an option for Japan occupying Vichy-controlled French Indochina or Vichy Madagascar. Would Japan need to declare war on Vichy France to take control of NEI?

Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 9:39:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obermeister Ok, thanks for clearing that up. What about the following situation: 1. France has not been vichied and is at war with Germany. 2 Germany DCW Netherlands, France takes control of Netherlands. 3. Germany conquers Netherlands (but not NEI) and Vichies France. At this point NEI would either go Vichy or Free France, depending on the Vichy variant you are playing with. Say for the sake of argument that it goes Vichy. What are Japan's options regarding NEI at this point? There is an option for Japan occupying Vichy-controlled French Indochina or Vichy Madagascar. Would Japan need to declare war on Vichy France to take control of NEI? No. Vichy France and Japan are on the same side. I would think that Vichy could create a Trade agreement with Japan and send its oil to Japan. Also, Japan could put a HQ in NEI and then bring in more units under foreign troop commitments. But I am not sure about all of this.

composer99 -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 9:44:25 PM)
It would, but it can't, as you can't declare war on powers on your own side. The real question is, what happens to the NEI oil? Does anyone (Japan/CW) get any, and if so, can Japan get cut off by the embargo?

Froonp -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 9:55:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obermeister Ok, thanks for clearing that up. What about the following situation: 1. France has not been vichied and is at war with Germany. 2 Germany DCW Netherlands, France takes control of Netherlands. 3. Germany conquers Netherlands (but not NEI) and Vichies France. quote: ORIGINAL: composer99 It would, but it can't, as you can't declare war on powers on your own side. The real question is, what happens to the NEI oil? Does anyone (Japan/CW) get any, and if so, can Japan get cut off by the embargo? At point 2. above, the NEI keeps on providing oil to Japan RAW 5.1 says "The Netherlands must supply Japan with 2 oil resources a turn. This continues until Japan is at war with either the Netherlands or the Commonwealth, or the US embargoes oil sales to Japan (see 13.3.2, entry option 31). A neutral Netherlands must supply the CW with all its remaining oil." So even French controlled, the NEI still lend 2 oil to Japan. The CW does not get the oil anymore, France does. At point 3. above, if NEI goes Vichy, then the controler of Vichy (Germany for example) can decide that Vichy have a trade agreement with Japan, and give Japan 4 oil if Vichy is active (non neutral) and hostile. RAW 5. : "You can only give resources (or build points) if you are an active major power and you can only give them to another active major power (exceptions: Trade agreements ~ see 5.1, US entry options ~ see 13.3.2 and lending to Vichy France ~ see 17.4). Vichy France must also be hostile to lend to other major powers (see 17.4)." And RAW 17.4 : "Vichy France can only give resources and build points to an Axis major power if she is hostile to an Allied major power (exception, see 5.1). The Axis major power that installed the Vichy government can always lend resources and build points to Vichy France."

Froonp -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 10:00:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obermeister What are Japan's options regarding NEI at this point? They still receive the oil as long as the US don't embargoe it and they are not at war with the Netherlands or the CW. See 5.1. quote: There is an option for Japan occupying Vichy-controlled French Indochina or Vichy Madagascar. There are close to none. Until Vichy is collapsed. RAW 17.4 "No Axis units may enter Vichy controlled hexes while Vichy France is neutral (except to collapse her administration, see below). While Vichy France is active, only units belonging to the major power which installed Vichy France may enter Vichy controlled administration groups, and even then must satisfy the foreign troop commitment rules (see 18.2) to enter each administration group. If Vichy France is active and hostile to any major power, units controlled by the major power that installed the Vichy government can enter any Vichy controlled hex without having to satisfy the foreign troop commitment limits." quote: Would Japan need to declare war on Vichy France to take control of NEI? Japan can't DoW Vichy : RAW 17.4 : "Vichy France can only declare war on major powers it is hostile to. There is no US entry effect for this act. Vichy France may not declare war on minor countries. Axis major powers can’t declare war on Vichy France. "

sajbalk -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 10:15:58 PM)
There are USE actions that Japan can take. Occupying a Vichy controlled Indochina and Madagascar is legal but has a USE cost. Better to wait until the US is in the war, then do it.

obermeister -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 10:32:23 PM)
quote: They still receive the oil as long as the US don't embargoe it and they are not at war with the Netherlands or the CW. See 5.1. Ok, that was going to be my next question: a vichy-controlled NEI is still subject to the US oil embargo. Wow. That's very interesting. So, post embargo Japan isn't going to see a drop of NEI oil until vichy gets collapsed.

sajbalk -> RE: US entry question (7/30/2009 11:26:27 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: obermeister quote: They still receive the oil as long as the US don't embargoe it and they are not at war with the Netherlands or the CW. See 5.1. Ok, that was going to be my next question: a vichy-controlled NEI is still subject to the US oil embargo. Wow. That's very interesting. So, post embargo Japan isn't going to see a drop of NEI oil until vichy gets collapsed. With all due respect, this might well be a question for HR. If NEI is Vichy, does US oil embargo impact it?

brian brian -> RE: US entry question (7/31/2009 2:40:18 AM)
while this is one of those semi-interesting theoretical WiF questions - "what happens if we crash rule A into rule B?", and the computer has to be able to handle those, I think it is of interest _only_ on the theoretical and computer coding angles, because this would be extremely stupid Allied play. Steve's original suggestion of aligning the Netherlands to France is more applicable to Free France, and this does have some good upsides in those games where Free France has been created before Germany is at war with the Netherlands. I type this more for the observers who are wondering what kind of crazy talk is this, a Vichy Netherlands East Indies? It is theoretically possible in the rules, but that doesn't mean you will ever see it happen playing against rational opponents.

Extraneous -> RE: US entry question (7/31/2009 2:47:04 AM)
If Vichy is installed the NEI could become Free French. quote: ORIGINAL: Wiffe-RAW-7.0.pdf All other French territories and minor countries may be aligned with either Vichy France or Free France. 17.2 Determine control Roll a die for each of the other administration groups to determine who controls it. A group becomes controlled by the (Free) French player if the roll is within the range shown on this chart. Otherwise, it remains controlled by Vichy France: All other territories & minors 9–10 Regardless of the NEI’s controller the rules specify that the NEI no longer supplies resources to Japan. quote: ORIGINAL: Wiffe-RAW-7.0.pdf 13. Embargo on strategic materials - The US only convoys 3 resources to Japan per turn instead of 4. This takes effect from this step. Two of the resources must still be oil resources. Japan no longer needs to supply the USA with a build point. 23. Freeze Japanese assets - This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen entry option 13. The US only needs to supply Japan with 2 resources a turn in this and later turns. Both must be oil resources. 31. Oil embargo - This entry option can only be chosen if you have already chosen entry option 23. Japan no longer receives any resources from the US or from the Netherlands East Indies. You need no longer maintain a convoy chain to Japan.

paulderynck -> RE: US entry question (7/31/2009 3:11:52 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brian brian while this is one of those semi-interesting theoretical WiF questions - "what happens if we crash rule A into rule B?", and the computer has to be able to handle those, I think it is of interest _only_ on the theoretical and computer coding angles, because this would be extremely stupid Allied play. Steve's original suggestion of aligning the Netherlands to France is more applicable to Free France, and this does have some good upsides in those games where Free France has been created before Germany is at war with the Netherlands. I type this more for the observers who are wondering what kind of crazy talk is this, a Vichy Netherlands East Indies? It is theoretically possible in the rules, but that doesn't mean you will ever see it happen playing against rational opponents. I'm not so sure. This is one of those "thinking-outside-of-the-box" strategies but not so radical as FREX "No USA in Europe". NEI has a 40% chance of going FF, since it's on the Asian Map (7-10). If Germany is going for a French Surrender, then for sure it goes FF. FF can just lend two Oil back to the CW. Eventually Japan has to DoW FF and must think about just doing that and leaving the CW DoW until after war with the U.S. because of the big U.S. entry hits to do both. If NEI goes Vichy then the CW loses two oil but once the Oil Embargo is passed, Japan essentially loses four. This might be a good idea combined with an early Oil Embargo strategy by the U.S.

brian brian -> RE: US entry question (7/31/2009 4:18:29 AM)
the CW also loses ten CPs, a TRS, miscellaneous light SCS, and a nice little submarine all just for the thrill of doing something radical, 60% of the time. This naval force will also largely be immobilized once Germany crosses the Belgian border until Germany takes Paris, and would never stack with the CW, move CW units, nor base in a CW territory; and you will never know Germany's Vichy policy at the time of Netherlands DoW. Have never seen this happen and don't really expect to but if an Allied opponent wants to make the game different on a lark, I'd suggest they go for it. for me, skipping a German DoW until concurrent with the Japanese one and then going for a higher risk strategy in Belgium gives you the high reward of the CW economic empire being more tightly stretched for a while. but then I also don't like a Japanese DoW on the CW before the USA because you will regret that with each US O-Chit raining down on you later.

paulderynck -> RE: US entry question (7/31/2009 6:32:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: brian brian the CW also loses ten CPs, a TRS, miscellaneous light SCS, and a nice little submarine all just for the thrill of doing something radical, 60% of the time. This naval force will also largely be immobilized once Germany crosses the Belgian border until Germany takes Paris, and would never stack with the CW, move CW units, nor base in a CW territory; and you will never know Germany's Vichy policy at the time of Netherlands DoW. Have never seen this happen and don't really expect to but if an Allied opponent wants to make the game different on a lark, I'd suggest they go for it. for me, skipping a German DoW until concurrent with the Japanese one and then going for a higher risk strategy in Belgium gives you the high reward of the CW economic empire being more tightly stretched for a while. but then I also don't like a Japanese DoW on the CW before the USA because you will regret that with each US O-Chit raining down on you later. Good point about the ships, but I've never seen the sub as I guess we don't use that countersheet. The SCS are lucky to escape the homeland because you want to get the CONVs and so set them up in NEI. As for the TRS, for the number of times I've been hosed realizing I can't transport the Nigerian 4-2 or a US unit with it, I've wanted to sink it myself. [:@] The biggest issue are the CONVs and if they go FF, then they aren't lost. AAMOF it is great having ships to move with FF Navals rather than always having to do a Naval with the CW. If I was trying this I could get the ships to places likely to be FF, although along with an early Embargo strategy, I'd consider taking the BBs out of France and making an NEI Vichy into an 80% proposition - but raises the odds of no FF.

composer99 -> RE: US entry question (7/31/2009 1:55:48 PM)
Extraneous: You are correct in that a neutral Netherlands must halt shipping oil to Japan. However, if the Netherlands is aligned to France upon German declaration of war and the NEI are subsequently turned Vichy there are three things to consider: - First, the Netherlands (European home country) is conquered (by Germany), not neutral. - Second, the NEI is controlled by Vichy France, not by the Netherlands. - Third, there is an explicit rules citation indicating when Vichy France may lend resources & build points to other major powers (or as someone else put it, rule A crashes into Rule B and we have to sort out the wreck) which could override the embargo rule (since active major powers are not restricted the way neutral minor powers are). In MWiF I would have to say that I would dismiss out of hand the notion of aligning the Netherlands to France prior to Vichy declaration. In addition to the lost convoys and fleet elements, there is a resource in Dutch Guyana that I would not dare to have go Vichy French since it shortens CW convoy lines to bring that resource in rather than one from, say, India (or alternatively you may now ship that resource to go to a factory and ship oil that was previously factory-bound to be saved for oil purposes).

obermeister -> RE: US entry question (7/31/2009 1:57:33 PM)
Well, I've got a question in to Harry about the Oil Embargo effects on a Vichy Controlled NEI. And even if it's not smart play, it is something I think you'd want MWIF to be able to handle correctly, so figuring out what the correct answer is, is important to both MWIF and to RL games. If I had to guess, I'd say that the embargo wouldn't apply to a vichy NEI. Of course the oil embargo rule doesn't say the embargo doesn't apply if NEI is controlled by a power on your side. Let's go even crazier, and say that all active allied powers declined to control Netherlands. In that case she would be completely conquered, and NEI would be under German control. It really strains credulity to imagine that Adolf would honor a US imposed embargo against Japan. But Harry's answers have often surprised me in the past. I don't think it's addressed in the FAQ (at least a search for "embargo" comes up empty).

obermeister -> RE: US entry question (7/31/2009 2:13:54 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: composer99 Extraneous: You are correct in that a neutral Netherlands must halt shipping oil to Japan. - Third, there is an explicit rules citation indicating when Vichy France may lend resources & build points to other major powers (or as someone else put it, rule A crashes into Rule B and we have to sort out the wreck) which could override the embargo rule (since active major powers are not restricted the way neutral minor powers are). Well, if major powers are not restricted regarding resource lending like minor powers, then I would think that if Germany attacks the Netherlands and the Netherlands becomes Commonwealth controlled, then the Commonwealth could immediately halt NEI oil shipments to the Japanese. Maybe this is what happens? If so I would think the Japanese player might heavily discourage Germany from attacking the Netherlands in 1940.

Extraneous -> RE: US entry question (7/31/2009 3:21:48 PM)
Actually only major powers may give/trade/lend resources and/or build points to one another. Minor powers that are aligned or have been DOWed are controlled by a major power. This includes setup, movement, activity limits, resources, and etc. Normally when a controlling major power is conquered the minor powers under its control would just revert to their neutral status. According to the rules when Vichy is established any minor power that was controlled France has a chance to become Free French or Vichy. quote: ORIGINAL: Wiffe-RAW-7.0.pdf Its progress towards war is governed by the number of markers it has in 4 pools, the US entry pools and the US tension pools. By manipulating the markers in these pools, the US will be able to go to war with the Axis powers once it has judiciously applied pressure to control war-like Axis tendencies. U.S. entry option: #31. Oil embargo reflects applied political pressure by the U.S. on the NEI in an attempt to control Japans war-like tendencies.

Froonp -> RE: US entry question (7/31/2009 3:38:37 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Extraneous Actually only major powers may give/trade/lend resources and/or build points to one another. Minor powers that are aligned or have been DOWed are controlled by a major power. This includes setup, movement, activity limits, resources, and etc. Normally when a controlling major power is conquered the minor powers under its control would just revert to their neutral status. Whan Major Power is conquered, the Minor countries it still control are kept under his control. This is called "incomplete conquest". For example, when Italy gets conquered, if Italian Somaliland was still Italian controlled, then Italy is only incompletely conquered and Italian Somaliland is still italian controlled. Italy can even move its home country there. You might confuse with the case where a country (major or minor) is conquered, and only have territories left under its control. In that case this is called "complete conquest", and the remaining territories revert to neutrality, unless someone has unit in there. For example, when Greece is conquered, Crete (territory) becomes neutral if there are no unit in Crete. If then someone wants to enter Crete, he will have to DoW Crete that will be considered as a Minor Country for the DoW purpose.

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