Pt Boat Carnage

Pt Boat Carnage (Full Version)

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Top Cat -> Pt Boat Carnage (8/3/2009 4:05:01 PM)
Some refugee PT Boats from Manila ran into a large Japanese transport fleet, thought I might get a lucky hit or two... But, I didn't expect the following massacre. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Time Surface Combat, near Jolo at 74,90, Range 1,000 Yards Japanese Ships PB Koei Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire PB Kyo Maru #12 AK Yamasimo Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk xAK Sydney Maru, Shell hits 9, on fire xAK Hawaii Maru xAK Kagu Maru xAK Kano Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk xAK Tokai Maru, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage xAK Arimasan Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk xAK Rasin Maru, Shell hits 5, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk Allied Ships PT-31, Shell hits 1, heavy fires PT-32 PT-33 PT-34 PT Q-111 PT Q-112 MTB 8 MTB 9 MTB 11 MTB 12 Japanese ground losses: 4462 casualties reported Squads: 11 destroyed, 205 disabled Non Combat: 8 destroyed, 362 disabled Engineers: 1 destroyed, 5 disabled Guns lost 11 (3 destroyed, 8 disabled) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Time Surface Combat, near Jolo at 74,90, Range 1,000 Yards Japanese Ships PB Koei Maru, Shell hits 83, and is sunk PB Kyo Maru #12 xAK Sydney Maru, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk xAK Hawaii Maru xAK Kagu Maru, Shell hits 3 xAK Tokai Maru, Shell hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage Allied Ships PT-31, heavy fires PT-32 PT-33 PT-34 PT Q-111 PT Q-112 MTB 8 MTB 9 MTB 11 MTB 12 Japanese ground losses: 1515 casualties reported Squads: 22 destroyed, 62 disabled Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 114 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Time Surface Combat, near Jolo at 74,90, Range 1,000 Yards Japanese Ships PB Kyo Maru #12, Shell hits 26, and is sunk xAK Hawaii Maru xAK Kagu Maru, Shell hits 4, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk xAK Tokai Maru, Shell hits 1, and is sunk Allied Ships PT-32 PT-33 PT-34 PT Q-111 PT Q-112 MTB 8 MTB 9 MTB 11 MTB 12 Japanese ground losses: 2312 casualties reported Squads: 13 destroyed, 129 disabled Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 166 disabled Engineers: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Time Surface Combat, near Jolo at 74,90, Range 1,000 Yards Japanese Ships DD Usugumo, Shell hits 23, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk xAP Kamakura Maru PB Yamahagi Maru #3, Shell hits 2 Allied Ships PT-32 PT-33 PT-34 PT Q-111 PT Q-112, Shell hits 4, and is sunk MTB 8 MTB 9 MTB 11 MTB 12, Shell hits 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Day Time Surface Combat, near Jolo at 74,90, Range 1,000 Yards Japanese Ships DD Ikazuchi, Shell hits 26, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk PB Ikunta Maru, Shell hits 13, on fire xAP Terukuni Maru Allied Ships PT-32 PT-33 PT-34 PT Q-111 MTB 8 MTB 9 MTB 11, Shell hits 1, on fire MTB 12 Made my Cruiser attacks look feeble in comparison! Cheers TopCat

scott64 -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/3/2009 4:07:19 PM)
That will wear off, I done similar too, but after a string of success, the Jap Navy is on the lookout and the Jap TFs evade me. [8\|]

Hornblower -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/4/2009 10:54:13 PM)
[X(]

bklooste -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/5/2009 11:33:54 AM)
All 3 ARs i saw had big PT results like the Light Cruiser and 4 DDs ( 1 sunk) loosing to 3 PTs . Another guy wasnt worried about Boise he put his Sallies on PT duty. I dont think these are aberrations due to the frequency of this happening in AARs.

John Lansford -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/5/2009 11:51:55 AM)
That's a lot of torpedo hits for 10 PT's, but similar to what I've been seeing too. One of my MTB TF's torpedoed and sank Maya in a surprise naval battle north of Brunei, and I've also had successful attacks in broad daylight against a docked transport TF. Eventually though the PT's will pick up system damage, slow down and the IJN will start using old DD's to chase them down or escort the TF's. I also found that CV's and their heavy AAMG's are death to PT boats; one squadron found Ryujo and she shot up two of them before they could get in range to fire.

Q-Ball -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/5/2009 2:04:22 PM)
I thought the same thing.....I counted 19 torpedo hits here, and those boats carry a total of 20. Smal sample size, FOW, transports, etc, I get it, but still................95% hit rate? That seems high to me. And other players are reporting outsize results for PTs. I should have saved the screen shot, one of my PT TFs completely mauled a transport TF in the same way, without losses. While great for me, that's not realistic. I love AE, though I think on the list of objectives for AE was reducing PT effectiveness, or at least making it more dangerous for the PT boats. Has that happened?

fcam1387 -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/5/2009 3:54:40 PM)
Yes I've been repeatedly massacred by Allied PT's near Rabaul. Were they this effective? I thought they were basically floating tin cans with a torpedo attached...

treespider -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/5/2009 3:55:25 PM)
Does the Original Poster have the just before Combat save or at least the turn that generates the combat?

PzB74 -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/5/2009 4:38:27 PM)
Hm,hope the AFBs haven't been given to free reigns in AE [:-] [;)]

Andy Mac -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/5/2009 4:45:14 PM)
Its being looked at

Don Bowen -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/5/2009 5:58:55 PM)
All of these are at 1,000 yards. Enemy PTs get that close, you're in sheep dip.

kfmiller41 -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/5/2009 6:05:59 PM)
from what I have seen so far in my PBEM game it is not that PT boats are hitting to often, it is that enemy ships firing at them can't seem to hit them at all. I have had several clashed where my screening force has shot at a PT task force closing from 10000 yards and couldn't hit anything. Were talking about 7 DDs and a CL from a navy that was supposed to be pretty good at hitting what it aimed at (at least early in the war) I mean they have run out of ammo shotting at the little buggers[:D]

John Lansford -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/5/2009 6:31:02 PM)
I had a daytime engagement at Lingayen Gulf where the PT boats closed from 21,000 yards all the way to 2,000 yards, torpedoed and sank the transport, then retired to 21,000 yds and disengaged with the two escorts firing at them (and got no hits) the whole way.

bsq -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/5/2009 7:05:31 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Andy Mac Its being looked at Not too hard I hope as I offer this counter point. I have the KB off the southern coast of the Celebes and I have two PT boat squadrons on each side of the strait. When the KB is in range of both groups, I target them in a sort of variation of the 'hammer/anvil' technique beloved of Japanese torpedo bombers. The net result... Two shell hits on Kaga (MG/Light Cannon - like that hurts [;)]) Two PT boats sunk This result is consistent and repeatable - the boats launch 24 torps (Dutch 45cm ones) not one hit... So like I say don't look too hard as I think you have it right. PT boats vs unescorted merchants (that handled like bath tubs in sea state 10) = carnage. PT boats vs anything that can fight back and manoeuvre - a bit like being bitten by midge...

Top Cat -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/6/2009 2:57:23 AM)
Their machine guns are almost as deadly as their torpedoes (against destroyers and the like), but in turn the enemy can't hit them with machine gun fire at 1000 yards. Cheers Top Cat

bklooste -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/7/2009 3:13:01 PM)
Dont look at the merchant one . Look at the CL and 7 DDs from Miller41 and the 4 DDs in the other game. If DDs/Escorts cant hit them there is an issue.

Mistmatz -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/7/2009 4:01:21 PM)
For my upcoming game I'd like to ask for the names of the PT boat captains. [:D]

karmannkc -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/8/2009 6:22:49 AM)
Too be honest I was liking the teeth the PT boats had, as I have not had much luck with them in regular WitP. But after the results I just got on Dec. 30th 1941 off the coast at San Fernando in the Phillipines, I have to start scratching my head a little. I will post the report once I figure out how to collect the reports. I know there were some variables of the night time combat that were in my favor here, but I think my PT boats are jumping sharks or at very least Fubuki class destroyers. I don't understand how they are getting so close completely unscathed. Is there something in the programming that does not allow some ships to fire AAMGs and other smaller guns at PTs?

bklooste -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/12/2009 1:17:44 AM)
Historically there were MANY PT attacks during the war and the total result were insignificant I remember a light cruiser damaged and maybe 1 DD sunk ( though not sure) and that was over the whole war. It is certainly likely that the AA guns are not attacking them ,25mm AA guns vs PT boats is not pleasent.

Kwik E Mart -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/12/2009 7:07:09 PM)
Only 7 total PT boat losses in entire war due to enemy surface ships according to this source... http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-5a.htm

Q-Ball -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/12/2009 7:18:11 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart Only 7 total PT boat losses in entire war due to enemy surface ships according to this source... http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-5a.htm That is interesting, look at all the losses for friendly fire, fuel accidents, grounding, etc. I don't think the Japanese lost alot of ships to PTs either. So, both those things are either because there wasn't alot of surface combat really involving PTs, or the combat was often inconclusive with nobody hurt. Probably a combination of the two. I think like many there is a PT boat problem, I don't think the fix is to make PTs more vulnerable to Japanese fire, I think it's to make them much less deadly (and maybe suffer more accidents).

Kwik E Mart -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/12/2009 9:51:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Q-Ball quote: ORIGINAL: Kwik E Mart Only 7 total PT boat losses in entire war due to enemy surface ships according to this source... http://www.history.navy.mil/faqs/faq60-5a.htm That is interesting, look at all the losses for friendly fire, fuel accidents, grounding, etc. I don't think the Japanese lost alot of ships to PTs either. So, both those things are either because there wasn't alot of surface combat really involving PTs, or the combat was often inconclusive with nobody hurt. Probably a combination of the two. I think like many there is a PT boat problem, I don't think the fix is to make PTs more vulnerable to Japanese fire, I think it's to make them much less deadly (and maybe suffer more accidents). After reading a little more on the subject, I would think the best portrayal of PT boats would be of a disruptive nature, ie they cause enemy TF's to use more move points or slow down, burn more op points, increase fatique/reduce morale of surface ships, especially cargo type ships. They shoud be a huge hinderance to barge operations (not sure if abstract barges even exist in AE). If used in conjunction with capital ships, they should cause screening destroyers headaches, ie not effective at screening due to dodging the mosquito boats etc...perhaps not doable with the current code, but maybe a future enhancement...

Kwik E Mart -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/12/2009 9:52:22 PM)
PS - maybe this should be moved from the AAR section to the main forum?

ShaiHulud -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/13/2009 12:03:44 PM)
A VERY long time ago I read that there was no record of an American PT boat sinking a enemy warship, of any type. They did have some small successes against merchant shipping and were successful at interdicting barge traffic. The results being reported here appear to be strictly at odds with history.

dr. smith -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/13/2009 5:47:41 PM)
Doesn't curvature of the earth factor into these sightings, especially one 21,000 yards away? Just simply using Pythagorean theorem says that a guy in a PT (lets' be generous and say he's 5 meters off sea level) can see 8730 yards in IDEAL conditions.� Playing around with the numbers, to see 21,000 yds would require a person to be 31 yards off sea level.� So unless PTs had 100 foot perches, it is quite impossible for a PT to do a sighting past 9,000 yards.� Of course this assumes absolutely CLEAR line of sight, not taking into account weather, haze, lighting. Used avg Earth radius of 6,372,797 m = 6,969,376 yds. http://wiki.answers.com/Q/How_far_can_a_person_see_before_the_curvature_of_the_earth_blocks_the_view

John Lansford -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/13/2009 6:52:42 PM)
A PT boat's sighting range depends on what he's looking at. A sub or low floating barge is harder to see than a carrier or BB with its high pagoda mast, and of course the plume of exhaust from the stack can often be seen further than the actual ship. Didn't the PT boats cripple Abukuma during the Leyte Gulf battle? The torpedo went through the entire TF and hit the CL on the far side.

karmannkc -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/15/2009 5:10:10 AM)
sorry guys...i meant to post this earlier, as these results were rather insane. I know getting a PT inside 1,000 yards is optimal for a PT, really, I want to know how they are geting in seemingly so easily. Or is it just a fluke, or am I a victim of FoW? Does FoW affect combat reports? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Time Surface Combat, near San Fernando at 80,74, Range 1,000 Yards Japanese aircraft no flights Japanese aircraft losses No Japanese losses Japanese Ships CA Suzuya, Torpedo hits 6, and is sunk PC Sumire, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk E Saga, Shell hits 2 xAK Kenyo Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk xAK Yasuteru Maru xAP Kamo Maru, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk Allied Ships PT-31 PT-33 PT-34 PT-35 PT-41 PT Q-111 PT Q-112 Allied Ships Reported to be Approaching! Japanese TF begins to get underway Improved night sighting under 89% moonlight Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 89% moonlight: 12,000 yards CONTACT: Allied lookouts spot Japanese task force at 5,000 yards Range closes to 1,000 yards... PT Q-112 engages CA Suzuya at 1,000 yards CA Suzuya engages PT Q-111 at 1,000 yards PC Sumire engages PT-41 at 1,000 yards PT Q-111 engages xAP Kamo Maru at 1,000 yards PT-34 engages xAP Kamo Maru at 1,000 yards PC Sumire engages PT-31 at 1,000 yards Range increases to 2,000 yards CA Suzuya engages PT-31 at 2,000 yards E Saga engages PT Q-111 at 2,000 yards PC Sumire sunk by PT-41 at 2,000 yards CA Suzuya engages PT-33 at 2,000 yards E Saga engages PT Q-112 at 2,000 yards E Saga engages PT Q-111 at 2,000 yards PT Q-111 engages xAP Kamo Maru at 2,000 yards CA Suzuya sunk by PT-35 at 2,000 yards PT-35 engages xAK Kenyo Maru at 2,000 yards PT-31 engages xAK Kenyo Maru at 2,000 yards xAP Kamo Maru sunk by PT Q-112 at 2,000 yards E Saga engages PT Q-111 at 2,000 yards PT-41 engages E Saga at 2,000 yards PT-35 engages E Saga at 2,000 yards E Saga engages PT-34 at 2,000 yards PT-33 engages E Saga at 2,000 yards E Saga engages PT-31 at 2,000 yards Leon V. orders Allied TF to disengage E Saga engages PT Q-112 at 2,000 yards E Saga engages PT Q-111 at 2,000 yards E Saga engages PT-35 at 2,000 yards E Saga engages PT-34 at 2,000 yards PT-33 engages E Saga at 2,000 yards PT-31 engages E Saga at 2,000 yards Range increases to 5,000 yards E Saga engages PT Q-112 at 5,000 yards E Saga engages PT Q-111 at 5,000 yards E Saga engages PT-41 at 5,000 yards E Saga engages PT-31 at 5,000 yards Range increases to 11,000 yards Task forces break off... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Night Time Surface Combat, near San Fernando at 80,74, Range 1,000 Yards Japanese Ships CA Mikuma, Torpedo hits 4, on fire, heavy damage DD Kagero, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk DD Isokaze, Shell hits 13, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk TB Hato, Shell hits 20, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk xAK Seattle Maru, Shell hits 3, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk xAP Taizan Maru Allied Ships PT Q-113 MTB 7, Shell hits 1, and is sunk MTB 8 MTB 9 MTB 10 MTB 11 MTB 12 MTB 26 Improved night sighting under 89% moonlight Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions and 89% moonlight: 12,000 yards Range closes to 4,000 yards... Range closes to 1,000 yards... TB Hato engages PT Q-113 at 1,000 yards PT Q-113 engages DD Isokaze at 1,000 yards TB Hato engages MTB 11 at 1,000 yards TB Hato sunk by MTB 10 at 1,000 yards MTB 9 engages DD Isokaze at 1,000 yards Range increases to 2,000 yards CA Mikuma engages PT Q-113 at 2,000 yards DD Isokaze sunk by MTB 11 at 2,000 yards CA Mikuma engages MTB 10 at 2,000 yards CA Mikuma engages MTB 9 at 2,000 yards MTB 8 engages CA Mikuma at 2,000 yards CA Mikuma engages MTB 7 at 2,000 yards CA Mikuma engages PT Q-113 at 2,000 yards DD Kagero engages PT Q-113 at 2,000 yards CA Mikuma engages MTB 10 at 2,000 yards DD Kagero engages MTB 9 at 2,000 yards CA Mikuma engages MTB 7 at 2,000 yards DD Kagero engages PT Q-113 at 2,000 yards CA Mikuma engages MTB 26 at 2,000 yards PT Q-113 engages xAK Seattle Maru at 2,000 yards MTB 7 engages xAK Seattle Maru at 2,000 yards DD Kagero sunk by MTB 12 at 2,000 yards CA Mikuma engages MTB 10 at 2,000 yards MTB 7 sunk by CA Mikuma at 2,000 yards Range increases to 3,000 yards MTB 12 engages xAK Seattle Maru at 3,000 yards MTB 10 engages xAK Seattle Maru at 3,000 yards CA Mikuma engages PT Q-113 at 3,000 yards MTB 8 engages xAP Taizan Maru at 3,000 yards Range closes to 2,000 yards CA Mikuma engages PT Q-113 at 2,000 yards CA Mikuma engages MTB 26 at 2,000 yards Range increases to 6,000 yards Range increases to 9,000 yards CA Mikuma engages MTB 8 at 9,000 yards Task forces break off...

bklooste -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/15/2009 7:34:26 AM)
Maybe all those 25mm AA which will shred PTs at 1000 yards should be set to DP guns. I notice in the first reports the allies sighting the Japanese but not for the Japanese.2 CAs ,3 DD down etc Forget Iowas ,Essex just get supply to the PI and build PTs.

RHoenig -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/15/2009 10:44:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: karmannkc Japanese aircraft losses No Japanese losses Japanese Ships CA Suzuya, Torpedo hits 6, and is sunk PC Sumire, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk E Saga, Shell hits 2 xAK Kenyo Maru, Shell hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, and is sunk xAK Yasuteru Maru xAP Kamo Maru, Shell hits 12, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk Allied Ships PT-31 PT-33 PT-34 PT-35 PT-41 PT Q-111 PT Q-112 Um, am I more lacking in math skill than usually, or are there realy 16 torpedo hits from 7 PT-boats?

karmannkc -> RE: Pt Boat Carnage (8/15/2009 11:24:16 AM)
See that is why I was wondering if Fog of War was taking effect here. Over exuberant PT captains? Though also if I recall correctly, Elco Boats carry 4 torps each. So, that might be right. Anyone able to confirm that? Maybe I just got lucky, one night. I dunno.

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