RE: Japanese airframe production (Full Version)

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ChezDaJez -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 8:43:14 PM)

quote:

In any case, regardless of whether the Model 32 was actually assigned to a carrier's fighter unit, surely the fact that they were equipped to do so is what should determine whether they were carrier capable. Certainly I would take a Model 22 over a Model 32 as the equipment of choice for my carriers, given its superior range. But if you don't have that choice due to losses, as may well have been the case at the time it was introduced, I see no reason to deny the option of sending the Model 32 to sea aboard your carriers.


The A6M3 model 32 was carrier capable and you can assign a land-based unit to a carrier. However, there is no definitive evidence that any Japanese carrier air group ever employed the model 32 even as replacements. Not saying it never happened, just that there is no evidence to support the idea.

Francillon's "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" alludes to the model 32 as being land-based but does not conclusively say so. Another of his books "Japanese Carrier Air Groups 1941-1945" mentions only Model 21s and Model 52s as being employed on carriers.

Hata and Izawa's book "Japanese Naval Aces and Fighter Units in World War II" lists the specific aircraft assigned to each carrier air group. Unit markings are also covered in good detail. The Model 21, 22 and 52 are all listed but the model 32 is not mentioned at all. You can find plenty of mention of the Model 32 in the land unit histories of this book. Many land-units flew a mixture of models. For example, the 2nd Air Group (renamed Air Group 582 Nov 42) operated out of Buna during the Guadacanal Campaign and employed both model 32s and model 22s.

I understand your point about replacing CV losses quickly. Truth is the Japanese just didn't do it that way. Carrier air groups were typically replenished upon return to Japan and would draw new aircraft there. You can transfer a land-based model 32 unit to a carrier as a stop gap measure.

Personally, I don't understand why the Japanese didn't assign Model 32s to CV groups and reserve the Model 22s for land units. Seems like a better fit to me in regards to range. I would want Model 22s to escort my Bettys and the model 32 has plenty of range to escort carrier bombers.

Anyways, we agree to disagree on this point. You can transfer a land-based model 32 unit to a carrier as a stop gap measure and there is always the editor.

Chez



Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 8:47:05 PM)

What do you think of this, guys? I'm thinking of adding the TBO in each box.



[image]local://upfiles/1598/D1750AE2F9D94D5DB047231690C6D87C.jpg[/image]



scout1 -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 8:51:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli

What do you think of this, guys? I'm thinking of adding the TBO in each box.



[image]local://upfiles/1598/D1750AE2F9D94D5DB047231690C6D87C.jpg[/image]


Sweet .... we's likes pictures ............[;)]



Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 8:56:21 PM)

It's interesting to see that the A6M2 is now pretty much a dead end. It's the A6M3 that evolves now.



Kitakami -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 9:21:39 PM)

I will have the TBO for INJ planes ready later on tonight. And the charts are a GREAT idea.
The question is then, what do we do with the 56(0) A6M2 factory now? And when? :)



Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 9:40:02 PM)

Good question, Kitakami. We'll need A6M2s for quite a while. I'd recommend to at least 12/42 when the A6M3a arrives. That's the next possible upgrade for carrier air. It's going to have to be expanded to 112 too.

I'll probably consider converting an R&D facility (late war) to the A6M2 Sen Baku, to get those planes in 2/44. There are a couple of daitai, I believe.



Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 9:54:33 PM)

Hmm, just discovered something. The A6M2 is not a dead end. Here's the upgrade path:

A6M2 (Fighter) --> A6M2 Sen Baku (FB in 2/44) --> A6M5b (Fighter in 6/44).



Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 9:56:32 PM)

Now I'm tempted to increase the A6M2 factory to 112, let it upgrade to the Sen Baku in 2/44, produce some number of them, then shut it off until 6/44 and turn it back on when it upgrades to A6M5b.



Monter_Trismegistos -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 10:22:22 PM)

Hi... a typo?

J2M2 -> J2M3 -> J2M2 (again?)



Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 10:22:36 PM)

Ok, I'm done with FF, FB and F. Note how they all feed into the A6M series:



[image]local://upfiles/1598/1E0F59C4CD694D1EBCB023C1716AC0E7.jpg[/image]



Monter_Trismegistos -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 10:24:50 PM)

Hi Mike - since you were writing a post, you probably missed mine - look up for my previous one.

BTW. When can I expect your first AAR? I liked your listing of each turns reinforcements and where you are sending them.



Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 10:26:37 PM)

Yup, it's a typo. Supposed to be J2M5. That's what happens when you copy and paste. [:D] Thanks.



Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/8/2009 10:29:52 PM)

AAR? LOL This fall, maybe. My long time PBEM partner (tc464) and I are going to start one in a couple of months. I've only run one turn and that was the historical 7 Dec turn to see what changes there were in the industry. Still messing around with my love - production.



vonSchnitter -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 7:20:21 AM)

Here comes the list of all IJ airgroups - which should help a little for factory capacity planning.
The pic just shows the results for the claude.

The xls is set up to group air units by AC type and to filter by spawn date.
This way the numbers for AC actually in the group or in reserve are added up and can be compared to AC required by totalling the max AC colum.

Keep in mind though: The spawn dates of ship-borne airgroups depend on the date of their respective ships arrival. (spawn date 99999)

Filtering on say groups spawning until end of 42 will not show the requirements of Junyo etc.
I have omitted the unit withdrawals completely.

IJ Airgroups








[image]local://upfiles/12623/53443599982F495CBCA263C77BA6303E.jpg[/image]



Gilbert -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 1:18:44 PM)

@ Mike Solli
Thanks for the Plane wire chart, very neat and useful[&o]

@ VonSchnitter

Thanks for this incredibly amazing IJ airgroups chart[X(][&o]

Gilbert



Mike Solli -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 2:38:09 PM)

vonSchnitter, thanks much.

I'm still working on the diagrams. About 2/3 done. Hope to finish them today. Then I'll figure out how to post a link. (I'm computer illiterate when it comes to that.) [:D]



Kitakami -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 3:03:36 PM)

A very simple TBO tabulation that includes upgrade paths and CV air groups, but without dates.

It has some minor errors (I missed some group resizings), and I did not include detachments in the numbers, but it should give us a decent idea of how many planes of each are to be constructed without PDU on. With that, it becomes a totally different thing entirely :)

Files is a csv file renamed as txt. rename before using.

Hope it helps.



erstad -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 3:13:30 PM)

No production of the C5M2, and no upgrade path till the Irving comes along. Seems like with the limited factory situation, once I run out, they sit till Irvings. Anyone see it differently?

Too bad we can't navalize some Ki-15's.



Kitakami -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 3:27:26 PM)

@erstad,

It's either assigning a factory to that, or simply forgetting about them. I am inclined to just forget about them :)



n01487477 -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 3:45:59 PM)

Use it ... Don't use it ... but this has pretty much all you need[;)]

AirFrame Production
Engines & calc
ALL Airgroups

If you want to reinvent the wheel ...



Gilbert -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 3:53:12 PM)

Thanks Damian for your hard work[&o]

Gilbert



Kitakami -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 4:05:18 PM)

Indeed, Damian, many thanks!



vonSchnitter -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 5:11:41 PM)

Many thanks, Damian.

Just started on the next level, so to speak - what to produce ad how much - with PDU on.

The values for production results are quite fictuos (factory points = AC output/month) just to get an idea.
As you can see from the airgroups list some shipbased airgroups look like they come with planes ready, even though rumor has it, that all airframes come from the pool, I treat them as if the airframes are free with the group.

Lets start with the easy part:

Glen: since only 35 glens are active over the whole timeframe 9 production should suffice for this.
Even though the Glen on Subs can still upgrade to other FPS.

Jake: The Jake is pretty much the best FP so far, even though the E15K1 Norm looks interesting.
I guess I will keep the Jake as the only FP for a while - freeing up a Factory for Petes early on.
27 production points should suffice to fill out the gaps and replace shipboard Daves, Alfs and Petes eventually.
Besides the Jake has the N-6 Radar option.

The M6A1 Seiran is something of a special case - an FP Torpedoplane. It is coupled with some Sub upgrades (I.402-1, I.401-1, I.400-1, I.14-1, I.13-1) and can operate form these subs only. 15 AC needed.

IJN Divebombers:

There are two distinct production lines:

a: D3A1 Val, D3A2 Val, D5Y1 Myojo
b: D4Y1 Judy, D4Y2 Judy, D4Y3 Judy, D4Y4 Judy

The D3A2 Val has shorter range than the D3A1, and the Myojo is not carrier capable. In many ways, the Val is a dead end.
However, at least 36 D3A2s should be produced in order to have sufficient ACs for spawning air groups.
The snag here is, that the upgrade for D3A2 is due in 8/42 while the new Judy comes in 4/43.
That would probably be not so good (range). Since the first AG spawning with the A2s is due 9/43 switching the A1 factory to "keep" and switching it manually once Judy production is in full swing is probably the better solution


D4Y1 Judy becomes available in 4/43 and uses the same engine as the Val - upgrading the Vals to Judys is almost a no-brainer.
Both D4Y1 Judy and D4Y2 Judy have R&D factories assigned - for the time being, I leave them both alone, since the demand for DBs may change a lot over time due to carriers available - or not.












[image]local://upfiles/12623/F2139BF5B7894F34AE222195E899BB40.jpg[/image]



Gilbert -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 5:26:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: vonSchnitter


quote:

Jake: The Jake is pretty much the best FP so far, even though the E15K1 Norm looks interesting.


Interesting calculation. What about E16A1 Paul ? In my opinion, it was a good FP. Would you consider it possible to increase its production ?

Thanks in advance

Gilbert



vonSchnitter -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 5:51:15 PM)

Gilbert,

the Paul is a Dive Bomber with floats - similar to Seiran. FPs cannot change to this type.
4 groups will spawn with it: T-302 Hikotai, T-301 Hikotai, Ise-1, Hyuga-1.
The Ise and Hyuga groups are related to an upgrades.

I have not found any other airgroup to upgrade to Paul - so far.

The Paul has an R&D factory at Maebashi



Gilbert -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/9/2009 6:04:40 PM)

Thanks for the info. Aircraft cruiser Mogami should carry it as well IMO. I know it was planned at some stage but due to shortages of this FP type, she carried instead F1M2 and E13A1.

Gilbert



vonSchnitter -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/10/2009 9:44:19 AM)

Carrier Capable TBs next

Jean - the only thing worth noticing here is, that one airgroup will spawn with Shoho.

B5M1 Mabel: Mabel and Kates are quite close in performance. The difference is in the engines used.

Since no B5N2 Kates are in production (or no TBs at all) it could be quite tempting to down-grade the land-based TBs to Jean - esp. those with permanently restricted HQs - to get a few reserves.

However: At least 6 Mabels and 12 B5N1s should be retained to accomodate later spawning of airgroups equipped with the type. Zuiho-2, Shoho-2, Ryujo-2 Airgroups come with B5N1s - not getting carrier trained AGs would hurt a lot.

The B5N2s will have to soldier on for quite a while. Upgrading the single B5N1 Factory at Hiroshima to B5N2s and expanding it, is a must.

There is no upgrade path for Jean, Mabel and Kate.

In any case, retain a number of B5N2s, since the type has access to MAD and N-6 Radar, which may turn an obsolete type into a useful ASW platfrom.

Jills: The three Mks of Jill have an upgrade path, with the N1 and the N2 having both an R&D factory.
I would earmark the B6N2 factory for conversion - once things settle down.

[image]local://upfiles/12623/63191754018249A6B74957BD8C56E5DB.jpg[/image]



SireChaos -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/10/2009 11:29:15 AM)

There is a B5N2 factory, but it starts out as size 0(0), youŽll have to expand it.



vonSchnitter -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/10/2009 11:31:46 AM)

Right !

Thanks for finding !

Cheers



Kitakami -> RE: Japanese airframe production (8/10/2009 1:44:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

There is a B5N2 factory, but it starts out as size 0(0), youŽll have to expand it.


The fact that it starts as a 0(0) gives us the ability to decide what to build with it without loosing ANY production (switch first, increase afterwards). And so fa, the B5M1 seems to be what many of us favor.



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