Question: Airbase overstacking?? (Full Version)

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medicff -> Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/5/2009 3:32:13 AM)

Ok Singapore. size 6 base; Air HQ radius 3 (not same as base); 11 units lines but 3 fragments (2 det and 1 is /1)

Screen says its overstacked 9 of 7 administratively. I say 6(base) + 1/2 (Air Hq 3) = 7 administration which is what they say.

Is that correct?

Secondly 11 units - 3 group fragments = 8 (not 9)
plus look at screen 2 groups + /1 are on training and should not count. Does the info screen take into account the training/stand down groups?

What I am trying to say is how did the info screen come to their numbers?



[image]local://upfiles/14018/09C20B876EAA4DC58EF70B2B3017F513.jpg[/image]



medicff -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/5/2009 3:38:22 AM)

Here is Soerabaja. 11 full groups; size 4 af and air hq radius 5. 5 of those groups are training.

Thats 11 of 9 - 5 training = 6 of 9 so no overstacking, right?



[image]local://upfiles/14018/9DDCEB243D3C48778F51796DB5A75E03.jpg[/image]



medicff -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/5/2009 3:41:48 AM)

Ok last one [:)] Here is Soerabaja with no one on training.

Thats 11 of 9 should be overstacked administratively, right?

Can someone help explain these things to me, please?

[X(]

[image]local://upfiles/14018/268DD549D88A474B83BC50C368F9A38F.jpg[/image]



Scott_USN -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/5/2009 3:54:30 AM)

The problem I found with Singapore is that it has not RAF support. I could be wrong on that but then I stole all the good RAF commands for Burma... I am not sure if Army HQ's can handle air the same as Air HQ's can. You will notice in Sore you have a Air HQ selected? The barbell looking thing correct?

MLD is a fulltime Air HQ with Torp support.

I see one in Singapore also so not sure sorry nevermind... I know in Port Blair I have the 221 223 224 and 18 Air Units and no overstacking and in Rangoon and I have maybe one Air HQ and it over stacks at 8



Sonny II -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/5/2009 10:15:57 AM)

The Air HQ adds half of its command radius to the airbase size to get the limit of number of air units before it is overstacked.

So the air HQ in your example probably has a 4 command radius.

You don't have any fragments at that base but fragments do not count against the stacking limit.



medicff -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/5/2009 11:36:22 AM)

The command radius is 3 so 1/2 rounded down (HQ NOT same as base command) probably makes it for 7 groups. I reread manual and frags DO count if they are NOT of the same HQ as the base. However it does not seem to take into account any groups that in training/rest mode to NOT be counted.

Still doesnt add up. ARGH [:@]



medicff -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 3:57:11 AM)

bump

still hoping for anyone in the know for some answers.

Does the info screen numbers reflect training squadrons either at start of turn or running total towards overstacking?

Pat




Captain Cruft -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 12:16:37 PM)

I too am mystified by what constitutes airfield "over-stacking". It seems rather random. A clarifying logic dump would be most appreciated ...

Also, what exactly are the penalties for over-stacking airfields? The manual doesn't say.



onhilotime -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 1:29:43 PM)

my anecdotal experience is that at overstacked airfields CAP doesnt fly as often and damage from air raids is higher.

I also cant figure the formula. The base screen tells you once its already overstacked...as in "Base Administration 9 of 7 groups"...but why doesnt it give you the same information when you are not overstacked? Then you would know not to add that extra squadron. As it is i find myself saving before i transfer each unit.

Also, i cant tell whether having multiple air HQs at the same base offers cumulative effects...

Hilotime



Mike Solli -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 2:03:05 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: medicff

Ok Singapore. size 6 base; Air HQ radius 3 (not same as base); 11 units lines but 3 fragments (2 det and 1 is /1)

Screen says its overstacked 9 of 7 administratively. I say 6(base) + 1/2 (Air Hq 3) = 7 administration which is what they say.

Is that correct?

Secondly 11 units - 3 group fragments = 8 (not 9)
plus look at screen 2 groups + /1 are on training and should not count. Does the info screen take into account the training/stand down groups?

What I am trying to say is how did the info screen come to their numbers?



[image]local://upfiles/14018/09C20B876EAA4DC58EF70B2B3017F513.jpg[/image]



Is the S.19 Singapore III a flying boat? If it doesn't need an airfield, it doesn't count.



lazydawg -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 3:24:26 PM)

There does seem to be something hinky with base overstacking, so bear with me for a few posts.

Here is my situation in Singapore on Dec 12. Singapore is overstacked. So let's see what happens when I set all of the groups to training (see next post):



[image]local://upfiles/32389/B0203693736B42849C745BDA670E9A20.jpg[/image]



lazydawg -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 3:26:49 PM)

Okay all the groups are on training & Singapore is still overstacked. Let's assume that the check on base overstacking only gets updated during the end-of-turn or beginning-of-turn processing. I'll leave the groups on training and run the turn (see next post):



[image]local://upfiles/32389/B7D54228675D4887AEAD1D91076ECE38.jpg[/image]



lazydawg -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 3:28:36 PM)

Here's the next turn. All of the groups are on training & Singapore is still overstacked.




[image]local://upfiles/32389/5A67FDA3B1BE422981FE1271F78E4D16.jpg[/image]



medicff -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 3:32:21 PM)

Thats what I am thinking the computer doesn't account for training groups in its totals. Now the question remains does it only apply to the display numbers or does it actually affect the outcome of the flights (are they still penalized)


thanks for the posts, more clarity than mine [:D]



lazydawg -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 4:45:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: medicff

Thats what I am thinking the computer doesn't account for training groups in its totals. Now the question remains does it only apply to the display numbers or does it actually affect the outcome of the flights (are they still penalized)


thanks for the posts, more clarity than mine [:D]




The other questions are:

a) Is the game WAD (i.e. the manual is wrong & training groups count against stacking) ?

Or

b) Is the manual correct (the game is not WAD) ?



Q-Ball -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 4:49:37 PM)

I am equally unclear on how airbases get overstacked and the consequences.

With regard to PENALTIES, the manual is vague, from 9.4:

"An overstacked airfield affects how many aircraft can be launched, casualties from attacks and aircraft repairs."

...more specifics would be helpful to know the penalty

I am also unsure how best to track it. I understand the calculation with engines, but I have had overstacked airbases that shouldn't be by my engine calculations, so there must be other factors.

I also can't tell if I've overstacked an airbase, it seems, until the turn is resolved. Is there a way to tell DURING the planning that you are overstacking the base? Or do you always have to do manual counts, and hope you're counting correctly, which you won't know until tommorow?

Thanks, I need some help on airbase stacking!



Mynok -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 5:37:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncdawg

a) Is the game WAD (i.e. the manual is wrong & training groups count against stacking) ?



I would lean this way. What about a 'training' group would NOT use base resources? You still have to park, service, fuel, etc the planes plus board the trainees. Everything except supply ammo really.




lazydawg -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 6:26:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: ncdawg

a) Is the game WAD (i.e. the manual is wrong & training groups count against stacking) ?



I would lean this way. What about a 'training' group would NOT use base resources? You still have to park, service, fuel, etc the planes plus board the trainees. Everything except supply ammo really.





I assume that the points you made in your message above would be covered by the "physical" overstacking limit (i.e. the air base limit on total number of planes and/or plane engines). I further assume that the "administrative" limit (that we are trying to get a handle on) would account for the mission planning, intelligence, bomb damage assessment and other support functions.



michaelm75au -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 9:17:38 PM)

I am hazarding a guess that the AF (Singapore) is physically overloaded - planes x engines.

If the base is not physically overloaded, you can generally get away with 'administrative' stacking.

The whole purpose here is penalize putting too many planes into an under-sized base.



Scott_USN -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 9:23:06 PM)

Something does seem to be wrong I have at Rangoon a size 6 airfield, over 200 air support for 118 planes. I have Malaya Army command and RAF HQ's more than one and the Burma Army command... If I put more than 6 air units there it is over stacked. I have in contrast 20 units at Port Blair on a size 5 airfield.... No over stacking there :)



Graymane -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 9:33:39 PM)

Here is what I take from the manual.

1. Is airfield size 9+? No overstacking.
2. Count groups. Training groups are not counted. Split groups only count if of a different HQ.
2.2 Find Air HQ of same base HQ with best command. Subtract that many groups.
2.3 Otherwise, find Air HQ of different base HQ with best command. Substract 1/2 that many groups.
3. Are adjusted number of groups greater than airfield size? Admin overstacked.
4. Count the number of ENGINES on the airfield. An airfield can hold 50 engines per size. Training groups count 1/3 ENGINEs. Split groups count ENGINES normally or 1/3 if in training mode. Is the total number of ENGINES is greater than 50 * airfield size? Physically overstacked.

My guess is that you are physically overstacked. But I'm too lazy to count all the planes [:)]



Scott_USN -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 9:49:33 PM)

Well At Rangoon I could have as many as what 300 engines? I have 118 planes, there may at the most be 16 of those 2 engine Hudsons.... I moved all the bombers up north to rest and rebuild or most of them,.



Graymane -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 9:58:01 PM)

Ok, looking at the composition of those groups on the first screen, it looks like roughly 130 engines. Way under the limit for physical. Most all of the units are ABDA though including the /1 fragment. I think it should be 7/7 instead of 9/7. If it is counting training units though. All of the units training are ABDA. If it counts training, shouldn't it be 11/7? Where does 9/7 come from? Only thing I can think of is training counts as 1/2 or different commands training counts as 1/2 for admin overstacking.



Cap Mandrake -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 10:04:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Graymane

Ok, looking at the composition of those groups on the first screen, it looks like roughly 130 engines. Way under the limit for physical. Most all of the units are ABDA though including the /1 fragment. I think it should be 7/7 instead of 9/7. If it is counting training units though. All of the units training are ABDA. If it counts training, shouldn't it be 11/7? Where does 9/7 come from? Only thing I can think of is training counts as 1/2 or different commands training counts as 1/2 for admin overstacking.


[X(] Ugggh. <grabs bottle of Advil>



Graymane -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 10:06:03 PM)

Looking at the other 2 screenshots, it seems you have a lot of float planes (T.IVa, Do-24K-1, PBYs). Although I can't find it in the manual, as someone mentioned up above, float planes don't seem to count against the stacking limit. If that is true, looks like 8/9 groups that would count there.



Graymane -> RE: Question: Airbase overstacking?? (8/6/2009 10:07:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake


quote:

ORIGINAL: Graymane

Ok, looking at the composition of those groups on the first screen, it looks like roughly 130 engines. Way under the limit for physical. Most all of the units are ABDA though including the /1 fragment. I think it should be 7/7 instead of 9/7. If it is counting training units though. All of the units training are ABDA. If it counts training, shouldn't it be 11/7? Where does 9/7 come from? Only thing I can think of is training counts as 1/2 or different commands training counts as 1/2 for admin overstacking.


[X(] Ugggh. <grabs bottle of Advil>



I think Scotch would be more appropriate [:)]



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