Best game to enter the genre? (Full Version)

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tellville -> Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 7:26:50 AM)

I love playing games like Risk and Axis and Allies. I also played heavily Master of Orion I & II, and all four Civilizations. I also played a healthy does of Heroes of Might and Magic III.

However, I am looking to get into wargaming. Axis and Allies is probably my favourite game from the bunch above. What would you guys recommend would be a good game to get one into the genre of wargaming? To be honest I feel a little intimidated by many of these games. At the same time they have an incredible draw. Any help would be most appreciated!




AttuWatcher -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 7:40:53 AM)

It was not too long ago that I was more of a general strategy gamer myself. I loved Master of Orion II [:)]

There are at least 4-5 games here that I think would effectively get you hooked into the vein of wargames but I think it will largely depend on what type of game you enjoy and how much or how little time you wish to devote to learning to successfully make the transition.

Do you prefer operational or tactical level control? (or something in between) (I prefer operational level)
Do you prefer a game with a moderate level of complexity/time investment or one with excruciating detail/large time investment? (I prefer excruciating detail)
Do you want to play against the AI or humans? (I prefer playing against humans)
Do modern graphics matter to you? (I don't really care about graphics as long as they don't annoy me or make the game cluttered)
Are you interested in any particular time/place in history?

I'm sure they are other considerations but this should be a start. Or you could just grab the first game that sounds cool but I wouldn't recommend it [:'(]



tellville -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 7:57:32 AM)

I'll answer your questions!

"Do you prefer operational or tactical level control? (or something in between)"

I prefer more macro level control. Something like Axis and Allies.


"Do you prefer a game with a moderate level of complexity/time investment or one with excruciating detail/large time investment?"

Knowing myself, I probably would need to start at a lower level of complexity. As time went on I am sure I would go to the more complex level but I would probably have a better go of it if I started at lower complexity.

"Do you want to play against the AI or humans?"

Due to my schedule playing AI is probably my best bet. I have time to play, but it is spread out at different times in the day and not really conducive to playing with others!

"Do modern graphics matter to you?"

I'll just use your answer "I don't really care about graphics as long as they don't annoy me or make the game cluttered"

Thanks!!




AttuWatcher -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:05:23 AM)

One more question I added; are you interested in any particular time/place in history?

And another: Do you prefer turn based progression or realtime/hybrid/whatever.

Anyway from your answers I would take a look at John Tiller's Campaign Series, Korsun Pocket, and Uncommon Valor (which happens to be on sale right now [:)])

But the answers to these other 2 questions are important!



AttuWatcher -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:07:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tellville
I have time to play, but it is spread out at different times in the day and not really conducive to playing with others!


That is perfect for Play by email (PBEM) I wonderful little wargaming invention that doesen't require you to continuously be at your computer to play online but only some games offer this feature.



tellville -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:11:33 AM)

Answers to more questions:

"are you interested in any particular time/place in history?"

WWII. But I am open to others. But WWII is definitely more where my interest lies. I should add that I like games where the outcome isn't totally predicted. I'm not sure how much I would like a game where the main purpose is just for Germany or Japan not to lose AS BAD as they really did. I understand realism is a factor and things were stacked in favour of the Allies over the long term and thus games will have to have this to a certain extent but it's nice to see if you can change history, if only a bit :p Also, if that means the game is focused on only a certain time frame or theater (where the odds were more equal) then that's fine.

"Do you prefer turn based progression or realtime/hybrid/whatever"
Definitely turn based.



Arsan -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:16:53 AM)

Hi!

WW2 grand strategy with low/medium complexity games currently at Matrix would be...

WW2: Time of Wrath (has a demo you can try)
Commander - Europe at War Gold
Gary Grigsby's World at War: A World Divided

Outside of Matrix and at a higher level of difficulty, the most ambitious WW2 global strategy wargame is Hearts of Iron (third version recently released) Check HOI3 thread on this general forum for some heated discussions about it... [;)]

FAsea recommendations are good games, but i think they are not the scale you ask for...
Campaign series is tactical
Korsun Pocket and Uncommon Valour are operational and probably too difficult (specially the second one) to start with.


Cheers!

EDIT: ops i forgot... Hearts of Iron is pausable real time. All the rest are turn based.




tellville -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:22:33 AM)

I've looked at those games:

WW2: Time of Wrath (has a demo you can try)
Commander - Europe at War Gold
Gary Grigsby's World at War: A World Divided

World at War looked interesting because it looks like an advanced Axis and Allies. Does it suffer from Axis always lose syndrome?

Also, what are the pros and cons of each of those games?



AttuWatcher -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:24:24 AM)

John Tillers Campaign series does have an operational view but yes it's geared toward tactical.

I still recommend Uncommon Valor and maybe even Norm Koger's Operational Art of War III, you could probably play some smaller less complex scenarios to get started with that one and when you get better these games will still be complex enough to be fun.



Arsan -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:33:06 AM)

Now that i think about, Commander - Europe at War Gold also have a demo to try
http://www.gamershell.com/news_48842.html

Never played to World at War.
Many people love it and his designer (Gary Grisby) has a great reputation, so i'm sure its a good game.
But having so little map regions had always put me off. [:(]
The other two are Europe Theather only (not global) but have big maps with lots of hexes to move around.
Commander Europe at war is the more simple of the three. Fun, to play, easy to learnt and not too deep. That this is a good thing or a bad thing depends of your tastes.[;)]

WW2: Time of Wrath. I have tried a little the demo. Offers more options and realism, but its still pretty easy to learn and play. Its has been recently released so probably is not as polished as the other two (still...)

If i were you i would get the demos and try them by your self.
Cheers



Arsan -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:35:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FAsea
I still recommend Uncommon Valor and maybe even Norm Koger's Operational Art of War III, you could probably play some smaller less complex scenarios to get started with that one and when you get better these games will still be complex enough to be fun.


I much prefer TOAW3 to the games i recommended (a little too shallow for my tastes), but as he is asking for beginner level games...
After he gets into wargaming, TOAW woudl be a gerat next step! [&o]



tellville -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:45:30 AM)

Uncommon Valor and it's cousin War in the Pacific look really interesting but they also look about 10 times more complex than anything I have ever played before. I don't know if they would be a good starting point :S



AttuWatcher -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:56:05 AM)

In Uncommon Valor you can play smaller scenarios that really aren't that complex, nothing more than complex than say a full giant sized galaxy game of MOO2.
But whatever you go with there will be a certain amount of adjustment that needs to take place. That's just wargaming.



doomtrader -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 10:44:23 AM)

I think that the best you can do is to get the demo and try games by yourself.



06 Maestro -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 5:38:05 PM)

And...don't discount the continuous time games. Those are pausable. CotA has a "run until" tool which let's you set a given amount of time in hours or minutes-and then it stops upon reaching the desired time. If one so chose, he could play the entire game like that. By giving giving orders while the game is paused and using the run until tool, you would be playing in sort of turn based-except both sides going simultaneously. HoI3 is similar, but on a grand strategic level. However, HoI3 is going through some nasty birthing pains right now-I wouldn't recommend it to a non HoI veteran.

However, for your stated preferences, the games mentioned in previous posts will be a good place for you to start.



Lützow -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 5:55:01 PM)

CotA, UV and TOAW are probably too complex for a beginner. Aside of this the previous suggestions are reasonable well in my eyes and I additionally would recommend 'Advanced Tactics' (Matrix) and 'Strategic Command 2' (Battlefront).



V22 Osprey -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 6:34:26 PM)

John Tiller's Campaign Series and Advanced Tactics are great games to start off with.[8D]



killroyishere -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 7:06:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tellville

I love playing games like Risk and Axis and Allies. I also played heavily Master of Orion I & II, and all four Civilizations. I also played a healthy does of Heroes of Might and Magic III.

However, I am looking to get into wargaming. Axis and Allies is probably my favourite game from the bunch above. What would you guys recommend would be a good game to get one into the genre of wargaming? To be honest I feel a little intimidated by many of these games. At the same time they have an incredible draw. Any help would be most appreciated!




http://www.killerbeesoftware.com/

Right up your alley to start off with like an Axis & Allies but more depth to production. Empire Deluxe or Empire Deluxe Enhanced Edition if you're brave and like a bit more detail and more different troup types and tactical gameplay.

Also no wargamers library would be complete without Steel Panthers W@W and it's free.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/sp_waw.htm



jjax -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 7:26:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

quote:

ORIGINAL: tellville

I love playing games like Risk and Axis and Allies. I also played heavily Master of Orion I & II, and all four Civilizations. I also played a healthy does of Heroes of Might and Magic III.

However, I am looking to get into wargaming. Axis and Allies is probably my favourite game from the bunch above. What would you guys recommend would be a good game to get one into the genre of wargaming? To be honest I feel a little intimidated by many of these games. At the same time they have an incredible draw. Any help would be most appreciated!




http://www.killerbeesoftware.com/

Right up your alley to start off with like an Axis & Allies but more depth to production. Empire Deluxe or Empire Deluxe Enhanced Edition if you're brave and like a bit more detail and more different troup types and tactical gameplay.

Also no wargamers library would be complete without Steel Panthers W@W and it's free.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/sp_waw.htm


Sorry, as much as is like to support indy developers, that version of Empire deluxe is not worth the 35 they are asking for it!

When you consider the amount of clones and abandonware versions of the game that are on the net for free, that price is highway robbery.

However, the empire games are a great place top start. I played those games to death when I was a wee tyke.





Jeffrey H. -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 7:46:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax


quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

quote:

ORIGINAL: tellville

I love playing games like Risk and Axis and Allies. I also played heavily Master of Orion I & II, and all four Civilizations. I also played a healthy does of Heroes of Might and Magic III.

However, I am looking to get into wargaming. Axis and Allies is probably my favourite game from the bunch above. What would you guys recommend would be a good game to get one into the genre of wargaming? To be honest I feel a little intimidated by many of these games. At the same time they have an incredible draw. Any help would be most appreciated!




http://www.killerbeesoftware.com/

Right up your alley to start off with like an Axis & Allies but more depth to production. Empire Deluxe or Empire Deluxe Enhanced Edition if you're brave and like a bit more detail and more different troup types and tactical gameplay.

Also no wargamers library would be complete without Steel Panthers W@W and it's free.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/sp_waw.htm


Sorry, as much as is like to support indy developers, that version of Empire deluxe is not worth the 35 they are asking for it!

When you consider the amount of clones and abandonware versions of the game that are on the net for free, that price is highway robbery.

However, the empire games are a great place top start. I played those games to death when I was a wee tyke.






Sounds to me like you are advocating piracy.




WYBaugh -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:07:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax


quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

quote:

ORIGINAL: tellville

I love playing games like Risk and Axis and Allies. I also played heavily Master of Orion I & II, and all four Civilizations. I also played a healthy does of Heroes of Might and Magic III.

However, I am looking to get into wargaming. Axis and Allies is probably my favourite game from the bunch above. What would you guys recommend would be a good game to get one into the genre of wargaming? To be honest I feel a little intimidated by many of these games. At the same time they have an incredible draw. Any help would be most appreciated!




http://www.killerbeesoftware.com/

Right up your alley to start off with like an Axis & Allies but more depth to production. Empire Deluxe or Empire Deluxe Enhanced Edition if you're brave and like a bit more detail and more different troup types and tactical gameplay.

Also no wargamers library would be complete without Steel Panthers W@W and it's free.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/sp_waw.htm


Sorry, as much as is like to support indy developers, that version of Empire deluxe is not worth the 35 they are asking for it!

When you consider the amount of clones and abandonware versions of the game that are on the net for free, that price is highway robbery.

However, the empire games are a great place top start. I played those games to death when I was a wee tyke.






Sounds to me like you are advocating piracy.




What? Where did that come from?



pvthudson01 -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:19:00 PM)

Holy cow...Empire.. I haven't seen that in years.

Remember folks he is looking to break into the genre, not get a degree in wargaming. Suggesting things like WiP may be a bit too much.

I would look at things like Commander: Europe at War or maybe Strategic Command 2 first honestly, or WW2 Time of Wrath.

COTA is good also, but dang folks don't suggest things like Uncommon Valor, we want to keep him around not drive him away :) (not saying its a bad game either, but not for a beginner!)

if you really want a good answer, head into the boards of the games listed and read the After Action reports, see if you like the flow of the game, the look, the complexity and hope it has a demo!



Erik Rutins -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:23:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tellville
I love playing games like Risk and Axis and Allies. I also played heavily Master of Orion I & II, and all four Civilizations. I also played a healthy does of Heroes of Might and Magic III.


If you loved Axis and Allies, I would suggest the following, as these are some of our easiest games to get into and they cover the same kind of scale as Axis and Allies.

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/330/details/Gary.Grigsby%27s.World.at.War:.A.World.Divided

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/344/details/Commander.-.Europe.at.War.Gold

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/345/details/Advanced.Tactics:.World.War.II

And on the tactical scale, try:

http://www.matrixgames.com/products/368/details/Close.Combat:.The.Longest.Day

We also have new Sci-Fi game in the works that I think you will love, but that's not quite ready for release yet, so check back later please.

Regards,

- Erik





jjax -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 8:33:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jeffrey H.


quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax


quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

quote:

ORIGINAL: tellville

I love playing games like Risk and Axis and Allies. I also played heavily Master of Orion I & II, and all four Civilizations. I also played a healthy does of Heroes of Might and Magic III.

However, I am looking to get into wargaming. Axis and Allies is probably my favourite game from the bunch above. What would you guys recommend would be a good game to get one into the genre of wargaming? To be honest I feel a little intimidated by many of these games. At the same time they have an incredible draw. Any help would be most appreciated!




http://www.killerbeesoftware.com/

Right up your alley to start off with like an Axis & Allies but more depth to production. Empire Deluxe or Empire Deluxe Enhanced Edition if you're brave and like a bit more detail and more different troup types and tactical gameplay.

Also no wargamers library would be complete without Steel Panthers W@W and it's free.
http://www.fprado.com/armorsite/sp_waw.htm


Sorry, as much as is like to support indy developers, that version of Empire deluxe is not worth the 35 they are asking for it!

When you consider the amount of clones and abandonware versions of the game that are on the net for free, that price is highway robbery.

However, the empire games are a great place top start. I played those games to death when I was a wee tyke.






Sounds to me like you are advocating piracy.




[8|]
Excuse me?

Neither a clone or abondonware is considered piracy. A clone differs from the original product enough to avoid copyright laws. Abondonware, as the name suggest, is software whose copyright ownership has lapse.

Sounds to me like you don't know what piracy means.



Hertston -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 9:45:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jjax

Abandonware, as the name suggest, is software whose copyright ownership has lapse.


Rarely. More usually it is just older software no longer available to buy. How 'abandoned' or otherwise it might be seems to depend on the publishers, whether they are still trading, and whether they have joined some trade anti-piracy group (which is fair enough) staffed by suited idiots who can't distinguish between Descent 2 and The Sims 3 (which isn't).



Lützow -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 9:58:58 PM)

Panzer General should be abandonware and there was some clone for Jane's Fleet Command, called Global Conflict Blue or stuff. Anyway, since we're talking about a free games, I also would recommend Steel Panthers.



V22 Osprey -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 10:13:53 PM)

You can get JTCS for how much they charge for empire deluxe...

Another vote from me for Steel Panthers WAW.Its free, and it offers waaayyy more than empire deluxe.



tellville -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/10/2009 10:43:19 PM)

I'm currently leaning towards Gary Grigsby's World at War: A World Divided. Mainly because it look likes something I am already familiar with (Axis and Allies) and a few of you have suggested it is a great place to start. Thank you all for your suggestions! They have been a big help and have made the idea of going into wargaming a lot smoother!




AttuWatcher -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/11/2009 12:54:17 AM)

Good luck tellville, let us know if you have any further questions.



tellville -> RE: Best game to enter the genre? (8/11/2009 1:05:13 AM)

I asked this in the World at War forum but it doesn't look like it gets a lot of views. So I'll ask here as well.

Just some questions I have.

1. Is it possible for the Axis to conquer London? How about landing and holding the US? If possible, are these goals even worth pursuing?

2. Is Russia entering the war or the US entering the war on the allies side inevitable? I think I read in the FAQ that it is, but I'm not sure how up-to-date the faq is and whether any new updates have changed that possibility.

3. To learn the game is it better to start as the Allies or the Axis and is it better to start as one country or the whole team?



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