RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (Full Version)

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IKL -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 3:51:51 PM)

It's certainly something you need to keep in focus. I've reached mid-May in a campaign against Jap AI, and have avoided fuel shortages so far. I set up a conveyor belt of CS trips from LA to Pearl using AKs selected by capacity, so they all load at the same rate. Seems to work well and frees up the TKs and AOs for escorted, faster runs to where the bad people live. I've set up big forward fuel dumps at Noumea and Suva ready for the start of my counter offensive.
Having an absolute ball in Burma; Jap army is being written down in a very big way, and the increasingly desperate navy attempts to interfere, a la Guadalcanal campaign, are fascinating, bloody and very exciting.
40 years of wargaming, and this is the best ever by a very long way.




Jim D Burns -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 3:53:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
Its interesting reading these posts, as I have never ran short of fuel or suplys for the allies, theirs plenty to be had the only wory is simply moving it, and theirs plenty of lift for it.

I use Cape Town a lot though, not for the CBI realy but mostly to move stuff to Austraila.


Well I did say the tanker fleet would need to have taken a significant hit before problems would prevent building a decent stockpile. Have you lost many tankers?

How much fuel do you have stockpiled in OZ, New Zealand and Noumea? Have you started serious offensive ops yet in the south with large CV and battle fleets being active on most turns?

I know in WitP you could burn through several hundred thousand points of fuel per month once offensive ops were underway. I assume AE is the same, but haven't gotten that far in yet.

Jim




DrewMatrix -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 4:09:38 PM)

I am only to Feb 42 yet, but I have been moving fuel from Pearl to Oz regularly and also moving fuel from Abadan which helps. The Dutch have a lot of short range tankers but I can run Abadan - Columbo and Columbo - Perth and Perth - Brisbane. I'll see how I am in a few more months, but at the moment I have Brisbane in the 50-100,000 range up and down (I am running ops out of Brisbane) and have lots more on the way to Brisbane. I have lost very few tankers thus far (all the convoys are escorted and largish).

Another thing that helps a lot which I assume people are doing is judicious use of Do Not Refuel. Ships should only refuel at the base with the higher fuel supply eg only fuel at SF for an SF - Pearl run and only fuel at Pearl for a Pearl - Canton run.




Sardaukar -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 4:16:49 PM)

I searched manual, but could not find what Cross-load penalty is. It is mentioned multiple times, but not specified. AKs seem to be just fine to haul fuel and some of them also have small liquid capacity (like 5600/200). I have to check how much that penalty is in game...and is it for space or loading/unloading. Manual is very vague in this.

OK, found only this:

Fuel. Loaded in bulk at a specific rate. Counts against daily fuel limit unless in barrels and being cross-loaded into cargo space, in which case it counts against cargo limits. The Fuel Rate is 500 x (Port Size).
Cargo. Generally equipment and supplies loaded at a specific rate for packaged, palletized, and “large loose” items (tanks, etc) rate. The Cargo Rate is 100 x (Port Size)

So, basically your xAKs etc. load/unload cross-loaded fuel only 20% speed compared to fuel getting loaded/unloaded with specific liquid carrier space. But you are not usually in hurry with big routine supply convoys. Could not find any penalty for amount...for me it'd make sense that xAK of 5000t cargo capacity could not load full 5000t of fuel, since it'd have to be loaded in barrels.





Nikademus -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 4:37:45 PM)

If you tailor your naval forces to your logisitcal state you'll be allright. The biggest difference from stock is, it takes alot more time to build up Oz (so Feb42 offensives are not very viable) and you can't use big warships like Battleships for every op. There was a reason they didn't fly all over the map besides being high value.....they were fuel hogs.





Brady -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 4:38:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady
Its interesting reading these posts, as I have never ran short of fuel or suplys for the allies, theirs plenty to be had the only wory is simply moving it, and theirs plenty of lift for it.

I use Cape Town a lot though, not for the CBI realy but mostly to move stuff to Austraila.


Well I did say the tanker fleet would need to have taken a significant hit before problems would prevent building a decent stockpile. Have you lost many tankers?

How much fuel do you have stockpiled in OZ, New Zealand and Noumea? Have you started serious offensive ops yet in the south with large CV and battle fleets being active on most turns?

I know in WitP you could burn through several hundred thousand points of fuel per month once offensive ops were underway. I assume AE is the same, but haven't gotten that far in yet.

Jim



I rarely loses any tankers to the Ai, nothing to note at anyrate, and I move Fuel out of the SRA to help with Austrailia initialy then move the larger ones to cape Town.

West Coast tankers all fill up and Head for Austraila right off, I dont generaly wory about stock pilling fuel per say.

My test games tend to run diferently than what you might think normal. I go on the Ofensive right from the start as the Allies.

In fact I normaly have so little concern over fuel, thats on hand, I just disband some tankers into ports and use them to refuel the ships instead of off laoding the fuel.

This helps to spead operations up at smaller ports like Nouma is initialy.




JohnDillworth -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 4:39:28 PM)

quote:

I love the fact that logistics plays such a big part in this game. Success in war depends largely on it, especially when fought over great distances on an area which is mostly water. Worrying about it makes you feel like you are conducting a massive war.

I love it to. One makes many of the same mistakes that were made at the time. If you survive, you learn. I have personally recreated the fuel crisis and the 3 month backlog of ships waiting to unload at Noumea. (forgot to take the engineers out of strat move, they sat around and did nothing, now it is a level 6 port)




sfbaytf -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 4:43:34 PM)

From Dec 8 onwards you need to begin moving fuel and supplies out of DEI and to Australia. Since fuel is so critical I load up AK's with it eventhough its inefficient. The supplies in Java is secondary. Once the area gets hot you need to break up the transport/tanker fleets into smaller groups to prevent a huge slaughter, create confusion and create so many potential targets the Japanese won't be able to hit all, should they choose to attack. Up until Java is actually taken, you can usually still get a tanker or 2 filled up and off to Aus. If need be use some of your combat ships and excellent Dutch subs with functioning torpedoes to keep the Japanese honest.

Plan your supply/fuel runs carefully and find out where the large fuel supplies are-you don't want to have to route your transports through the choke points. Once you have places like Darwin with large amounts of supply and fuel you can begin ferrying to Townsville, Brisbane and other places.

Make sure you have air ASW patrolls, ASW hunter killer groups and escorted tankers-although I have sent some unescorted and lost 1 or 2.

Those transports and tankers that began the war in the DEI are worth their weight in gold after the DEI falls, Don't let them get caught there.

Also make sure to send some if not all of the Dutch support ships to Oz. I'm not 100% sure of this, but you'll need Dutch ships like AS to support the Dutch sub in Oz when the DEI is over run. I'm also planning on using PP's to send some of the Dutch search planes to Oz when the DEI is about to fall. They will always be useful if I can use them in Oz.




crsutton -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 5:05:17 PM)

I am in May 1942. Here is what I learned and what I am doing.

1. Do not send BBs or a lot of surface ships to OZ early on. BBs drink gas like crazy. You will not ever have enough fuel. As it is, I have four carriers operating out of Sidney and can barely keep enough fuel in stock.

2. Japanese carriers and surface raiders seem to smell tankers from 1,000 miles away. I have lost about 25 tankers and it hurts big time.  And I have been careful. Be warned, this is not WITP and the AI can show up anywhere to raid.

3. You have more tankers than you need in the India theater. You can run tankers from Cape Town to Perth fairly safely. Send a an occasonal TF from Aden to Perth if needed but give them a good surface escort. India does not have a large need for fuel and is a short haul from Aden. You will have a surplus of tanker there. (That is until KB raids and sinks a dozen of them...[:@])

4. I found that I have a surplus of AK tonnage early in the game. (No troops to supply). Half of my Aks running to OZ  are carrying fuel. This really helps. The big Aks can carry plenty of gas.

5. Your options in the spring are limited. You really can't mount any big offensive operations. I have been fighting for PM and that is using up my fuel. I just don't have enough to make any major moves in the Solomons.

It is tight but I have enough fuel in Oz for now. But I am gonna have to go find some more tankers.




helldiver -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 5:22:20 PM)

I think Nikademus's comments are spot-on: the gorilla difference between stock and AE is tempo and time... it really reminds me of some of the differences between PacWar and Witp... everything in AE takes longer (in gametime, I mean) and it much more simulates the wartime long waits and preps punctuated by short bursts of intense activity.. this fuel business is deliciously maddening for Allies... it's not a bottomless cookie jar anymore... combined with the beefier AI, it really makes the Japanese a lot more menacing... as the Allies, it's keeping me up nights...

Regards,
Helldiver




Sardaukar -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 5:52:27 PM)

OK, here you see cross-load penalty for transporting fuel in xAK. First ship (and similar ones in TF, there is one bigger with 500t liquid capacity) have capacity of 5800t. It's divided to 5600 cargo and 200 liquid space. Ship could take 200t fuel with 100% efficiency and 2800t of fuel in barrels in 5600t cargo hold. So, you can load only 50% of capacity with this cross load. Looks very realistic to me. And remember, it loads and unload with cargo rate, which is only 20% of fuel/oil rate.





[image]local://upfiles/4867/E163DF23B6264407BAFC3B41F667903D.jpg[/image]

BTW, just noticed that TF commander has Leadership 17, Inspiration 13...Captain Bligh? [:D]




John Lansford -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 6:37:33 PM)

He's a merchant ship captain dragooned into the war; of course he's not in a very good mood!




Bullwinkle58 -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 6:54:18 PM)

[/quote]

Well, you can ship fuel with your AKs in a pinch. It just is not as efficient, since they have lower cargo efficiency (modelling the shipping fuel in drums in cargo space). I do it a lot in my Scen 6 (Dec8 start) campaign when lacking tankers.

[/quote]

Ditto for me. I'm not proud; if it floats, it hauls gas. There is plenty of time to have the escapees from the PI and Hong Kong run by Borneo to take a load south. 100,000s of fuel into northern Oz. Same goes for the Perth eastbound run to Sydney. There are more than enough idle xAKLs hanging around waiting for Cape Town convoys to fill their own pipeline. I haven't fiddled with CONUS west coast fuel convoys on that long southern run yet. I'd rather try way-pointing from Abadan to Perth, swinging far to the western map edge, than risk the southern tier with its commerce raiders. Maybe the IO will fill up with raiders later on, but so far it's an allied highway.





Buck Beach -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 7:00:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Oh, also, a word of warning; the AI likes to make raiding TF's of a pair of CL's and some DD's and send them into the area bordered by the Marshalls, Palmyra, Pearl Harbor and PagoPago.  Unless you've got a CA or two with a TF, they'll chew up a couple of DD's or anything smaller and sink your ships. 

That may explain the AI's extreme interest in Baker and Canton, too; if you have those two bases you can spot enemy TF's fairly quickly, without them they can wander around without being spotted until they find a convoy to ravage.



Great information, BUT, this what Andy Mac has been trying to keep us from doing and spoiling the little AI surprises for the rest of us.[:-]




Sardaukar -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 7:07:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Buck Beach

Great information, BUT, this what Andy Mac has been trying to keep us from doing and spoiling the little AI surprises for the rest of us.[:-]


Spoilers are bad. [:'(]

Well, at least according to him, there are 13 main "strategy" scripts and AI picks one when scenario starts (since he said they managed to squeeze in AI script selector). And there is total space for 99 (these are major ones, smaller ones go to thousands, I think he said main campaign now uses about 1500)...which I think will get used in modded scenarios. So there is immense replayability value.




Justascratch -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 7:32:47 PM)

Well crud. Now that I've read this thread I can see that I am in deep trouble with tanker losses. Looks like it's time for a restart - - - again.




jazman -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 7:38:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Justascratch

Well crud. Now that I've read this thread I can see that I am in deep trouble with tanker losses. Looks like it's time for a restart - - - again.


You would have figured it out eventually: "um, er, hey! I need more fuel around here. So that's what all those sunk tankers were for...", and the lesson would have really sunk in. Like a tanker going under.




JohnDillworth -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 7:53:43 PM)

quote:

Well crud. Now that I've read this thread I can see that I am in deep trouble with tanker losses. Looks like it's time for a restart - - - again.


[:-]
More realistic if you play it through. I have lost 15 tankers and 6 AO's. I am going to slog through




jazman -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 7:59:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Well crud. Now that I've read this thread I can see that I am in deep trouble with tanker losses. Looks like it's time for a restart - - - again.


[:-]
More realistic if you play it through. I have lost 15 tankers and 6 AO's. I am going to slog through


If you play a human, he may target the TK and AO, so it's good to figure out how to slog through. You may learn the slogging well, but what happens after that? You may never get to it.




John Lansford -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 8:05:39 PM)

So all of you concerned about "spoilers" aren't reading AAR's, right?  If no one can talk about the issues popping up in the game (like the need to escort all transport TF's, and not to build up bases too close to where the fighting is), then there's not much to talk about in the game.

Others have said to watch about the KB raiding into the Indian Ocean; well, that's not happened to me so is it a "spoiler"?  Someone else said they had a landing on the WC?  Is that a "spoiler"?  This is going to get really boring if we can't talk about some of the events that have happened in our games.




JohnDillworth -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 8:55:32 PM)

quote:

If you play a human, he may target the TK and AO, so it's good to figure out how to slog through. You may learn the slogging well, but what happens after that? You may never get to it.


I lost a lot but I think I can recover. Burnt much fuel, but sunk 2 CV's and a CVL with no losses ship losses of my own. I lost to many aircraft. I will not be doing much for months anyway. That is probably[:)] also realistic




Don Bowen -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 8:57:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

OK, here you see cross-load penalty for transporting fuel in xAK. First ship (and similar ones in TF, there is one bigger with 500t liquid capacity) have capacity of 5800t. It's divided to 5600 cargo and 200 liquid space. Ship could take 200t fuel with 100% efficiency and 2800t of fuel in barrels in 5600t cargo hold. So, you can load only 50% of capacity with this cross load. Looks very realistic to me. And remember, it loads and unload with cargo rate, which is only 20% of fuel/oil rate.





[image]local://upfiles/4867/E163DF23B6264407BAFC3B41F667903D.jpg[/image]

BTW, just noticed that TF commander has Leadership 17, Inspiration 13...Captain Bligh? [:D]


If you want to calculate the offset, just click on one of those ships and then mouse over the cargo. Then a little simple math.




Sardaukar -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/20/2009 10:00:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

If you want to calculate the offset, just click on one of those ships and then mouse over the cargo. Then a little simple math.


Yep, but in this picture says more than 1000 words. [8D] This game has already given me more than my money's worth of enjoyment. [:)] Gotta love the detail.




wdolson -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/21/2009 12:43:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns
There needs to be some way for the allies to respond to difficult situations that develop in game. The ridiculously low replacement pools and under-represented tanker and AK fleets are just too damned restrictive if they suffer high losses. In reality it would have been easy to order more tankers, airframes, tanks, guns, etc. produced if they were needed. But because they weren't needed historically, the allies don't get the capacity to build them that they historically had and easily could have used if needed.


If you do some reading about the war, the Allies had a tanker shortage until 1944 and even then supply just kept up with demand. Tankers are usually larger than regular merchant ships and require larger shipyards. The number of ship yards in the US which could build tankers were limited and many were building higher priority ships like cruisers and carriers.

At the start of the war, the Germans recognized the tanker shortage and sent their u-boats to the East Coast of the US in an attempt to force Britain out of the war by strangling the fuel supply. The u-boats focused on tankers moving from Texas on up to form up into convoys in Canada. The campaign was very successful, but Doenitz, fearing losing a significant number of u-boats far from home pulled back his boats before finishing the job.

The CVEs Sangomon, Santee, Chenago, and Suwanee were converted from Cimarron class AOs. They were much better CVEs than later built CVEs, but the shortage of AOs and TKs prevented any more being converted. The subsequent CVEs all had to be built on much smaller AK hulls. If the US had the capacity to build as many TK hulls as it wanted, all CVEs would have been built on tanker hulls.

So the tanker shortage is realistic. With some practice, you can get enough fuel to Oz to keep the war going.

A couple of things to keep in mind if you are doing a fuel relay. Make sure the intermediary ports are large enough. Fuel and supplies spoil if the levels are over the limit for the port size. Dumping large amounts of fuel in small ports will probably result in fuel loss due to spoilage.

Another thing to keep in mind is the time trade off between sending the tankers on one long trip vs the time taken to load and unload at intermediary ports. Some ships don't have the fuel capacity for long trips, so shorter trips, or mid-point refueling are necessary, but thinking through the logistics can be important.

Making sure the destination doesn't get too crowded is also a factor. If you have too many ships trying to unload at one port, a lot of ships will sit there waiting to unload which could be time spent moving to the next port. Sometimes congestion may be inevitable. Historically Noumea had some huge back logs before they got the port facilities running right.

Bill




Don Bowen -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/21/2009 12:56:35 AM)


And rembember guys, you can part a (full) Tanker at a small port and use it as a gas station. Until it runs dry, that is.




Central Blue -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/21/2009 3:20:33 AM)

may I suugest the Table of Distances Between Ports Via The Shortest Navigable Route? It is published by the Navy Hydrographic Office and is available for free on Google books. You can consult the differences between the 1918 and 1920 editions, but I don't think they were accounting for continental drift in those days.

Consider that the distance from Auckland to Panama is 6,512, from Auckland to Frisco is 5680. So if you are interested in a safe southern route to build your relay.... Anyway, I plan to test it.

The publication is probably handy for other purposes as well




wdolson -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/21/2009 4:41:00 AM)

Of course the continents have moved a grand total of a few inches since 1918.  Probably not worth worrying about in game terms. [:D]

Bill




Central Blue -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/21/2009 4:46:42 AM)

yeah, no trouble at all for those 18 knot oilers currently hiding out at MINSY. They are looking forward to building up experience on a nice milk run from the east coast to Cristobal with no U Boats to worry about.




afspret -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/21/2009 5:19:23 AM)

With all the rail lines running from ports in western & northern Oz, I don't understand why some of the fuel off loaded in these areas can't be shipped to the eastern & southern ports?  The same thing was true in WitP as well.




sfbaytf -> RE: IF it is Spring 42, and you are the Allies, you are out of fuel! (8/21/2009 5:24:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: afspret

With all the rail lines running from ports in western & northern Oz, I don't understand why some of the fuel off loaded in these areas can't be shipped to the eastern & southern ports?  The same thing was true in WitP as well.


The designers and programmers would then have to model in the number of rail tanker cars, locomotives and rail capacity to keep everyone happy!




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