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Edge -> Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 6:17:20 PM)

Hi,

I'm a total newbie to all this and would like help choosing my first game.

To give you some background, I used to play chess to club level, and still play online and against a computer, but I'm looking for something that will give me a similar feel of thinking moves ahead and plotting attack/defence but provide a new arena.

Therefore, it would need to, if possible:

1. Be turn-based or equivalent so that I can spend as long as I want thinking about my moves.

2. Have a set number of starting pieces that you cannot add to. ie, once a unit is killed that's it, you can't build more. I know some games have reinforcements, but so long as you know when they're coming, I figure that adds in to the tactics (ie, defending until your reserves are due or having to attack quickly before their reserves arrive), but I don't want a game where you can do research and/or produce more units like in Civilisation, for example.

3. Have a nice steady learning curve for a beginner, preferably where I can build up from playing with a few units on a small map. (I played the demo of Commander: Europe at War and the map was huge, plus it had production and research, so I think I'd be looking for something where you're trying to capture/defend towns or areas with a small number of units at your disposal, rather than entire countries with entire armies at your disposal).

I hope that narrows the field down, so that people know what I'm after. Feel free to ask questions to narrow it down further if I've not been clear enough. I'm sure there's loads of obvious information I've omitted.

Note, I'm not worried about what time period it's based in.

Thanks in advance,

Edge



Terminus -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 8:04:01 PM)

Welcome aboard, Edge. Looking over your list of requirements, I can think of two or three possible choices, these being The Operational Art of War III, John Tiller's Campaign Series and Steel Panthers: World at War. If you want to go a little deeper into Grognard territory, there's a game like Conquest of the Aegean to consider.




Hertston -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 9:27:24 PM)

I'd agree with Terminus on TOAW 3 and JTCS, although I would certainly recommend you take JTCS first. Both have scenarios ranging from small to 'monster'. CotA, while it is a terrific game, rather less so if only because it isn't turn based (although the scales mean it's hardly a click-fest, either). The best match I think of would be the Tin Soldiers games (Caesar or Alexander) and I certainly suggest you check those out.



06 Maestro -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 9:38:31 PM)

Welcome to the cutting edge of gaming, Edge.

Your preferences are so clear it is almost shocking. I saw your posts earlier, but Terminus beat me back here. I have to say that the games he suggested are exactly what I was thinking. The games that you seem to prefer are not exactly cutting edge anymore, but those have been modernized somewhat and are still very good, and very popular, games.

The game called CotA is not turn based, but real time pause-able. This is still a very good (or great) strategy game. One of the biggest difference comes when you get into playing against other humans. Turn based games are then more like chess than the continuous time games.

Here is a link to the suggested WW2 titles.
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tt.asp?forumid=652




Valgua -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 9:54:27 PM)

I would probably start with TAOW III. It offers not only very different map sizes but also very different settings. You could play anything from a small confrontation during WWII to the invasion of Iraq. I am also a chess aficionado but I think that wargaming is more than strategy. It is history recreation. Much of the enjoyment depends on your personal interest for a certain period. For instance, I have been a WWII buff since I was a kid. As a consequence I enjoy much more games that deal with that conflict. TOAW III would let you explore different periods and perhaps help you discover your personal wargaming Nirvana. 



Lützow -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 10:17:15 PM)

I would recommend JTCS. TOAW 3 may be still too intimidating for a beginner, since for most scenarios one has to manage a lot of counters.

Still remember when TOAW demo got distributed over promo cd's, I initially hated the game due to the high level of abstraction in comparison to Panzer General, Close Combat and East Front II - the titles which introduced me into wargaming.




Brigz -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 10:22:12 PM)

I notice a lot of you recommend TOAW III to newbies. It seems to me that TOAW is pretty complex for someone who has never played a wargame before. There is a lot going on there for a new person to assimilate. I would think that Tin Soldiers or the Tiller bundles would be much easier to start with. What is it about TOAW III that makes you guys think it's good for a beginner? I know it offers a lot of bang for the buck in the multitude of scenarios and eras but it sure seems to me that there is a fairly big learning curve just to get the game interaction down pat. I would think it might frustrate someone who has little gaming experience.



rickier65 -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 10:26:46 PM)

Well,

I'm going to have to disagree with some of previous posters. TOAW III might start much to large for you. It scales nicely from moderatey small engagements into an entire front! Don't get me wrong I was (and am) a fan of TOAW having bought two of the original games in series and buying TOAW II when it came out here with Matrix. AND you probably can find some smaller battles to get sgtarted on, but most of the battles are still pretty unit dense.

So, couple of recommendations from me.

1st for small tactical engagements you might want to try Panzer Command Kharkov. you can easily play games with less than a dozen or less units on each side. there is a tutorial series of battles that take you through using units. It's turn-based (though you have a joint turn resolution phase).

Another game you might want to look at is Harpoon Commanders Edition. a resurected oldie that plays nice. totally different style of course.

and for counter-style games (excuse me Matrix) you might give John Tillers Squad Battles series a look.

Rick



Terminus -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 10:33:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

I notice a lot of you recommend TOAW III to newbies. It seems to me that TOAW is pretty complex for someone who has never played a wargame before. There is a lot going on there for a new person to assimilate. I would think that Tin Soldiers or the Tiller bundles would be much easier to start with. What is it about TOAW III that makes you guys think it's good for a beginner? I know it offers a lot of bang for the buck in the multitude of scenarios and eras but it sure seems to me that there is a fairly big learning curve just to get the game interaction down pat. I would think it might frustrate someone who has little gaming experience.


Perhaps, perhaps not. If you really think about it, how many controls are there to use in TOAW? Start with some of the smaller scenarios, and work your way up. TOAW has such a broad spectrum of scenarios that there's stuff in there for everyone from the greenest newbie to the most jaded veteran.

YMMV.



Joe D. -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 11:19:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edge

Hi,

I'm a total newbie to all this and would like help choosing my first game ...


I'm assuming it's a wargame as this is a wargaming forum, so what are your other preferences: air, naval or land combat?

Do you like to micro-manage, or would you rather give some general instructions and let the game go?



Wolfe1759 -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 11:27:39 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

I notice a lot of you recommend TOAW III to newbies. It seems to me that TOAW is pretty complex for someone who has never played a wargame before. There is a lot going on there for a new person to assimilate. I would think that Tin Soldiers or the Tiller bundles would be much easier to start with. What is it about TOAW III that makes you guys think it's good for a beginner? I know it offers a lot of bang for the buck in the multitude of scenarios and eras but it sure seems to me that there is a fairly big learning curve just to get the game interaction down pat. I would think it might frustrate someone who has little gaming experience.


Although I own TOAW III (along with a lot of other Matrix games) I have to agree with Dave on this, I really don't think it is the best first step into computer wargaming.

Given Edge's three criteria I would also recommend either of the Tin Soldier games, also they are not the most expensive way of testing the water of the wargaming pond.



AttuWatcher -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/22/2009 11:34:00 PM)

I agree with the Tin Soldiers recommendation. You can try the demo first so no heartache over paying for a game you end up not liking.

Also as an alternative to TOAW III you could try Advanced Tactics:WWII. I haven't played it and there is no demo but from what I hear it's similar to TOAW but just bit more accessible and easier to play.



Hertston -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 12:14:44 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FAsea
Also as an alternative to TOAW III you could try Advanced Tactics:WWII. I haven't played it and there is no demo but from what I hear it's similar to TOAW but just bit more accessible and easier to play.


Yes, Advanced Tactics would be a very good choice as well. There isn't a demo but its predecessor 'People's Tactics' is now freeware, and will give you a pretty good idea of the gameplay (and is worth playing on its own merits) - remember AT has moved on a lot from that, though.




Fallschirmjager -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 2:53:46 AM)

Conquest of the Agean and it's prequels are probably among the easiest of wargames to learn. The AI takes your orders and does all the hard work for you. It has been among the best wargaming systems since it's inception.



V22 Osprey -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 3:14:39 AM)

John Tiller's Campaign Series.

It's Platoon Scale, with the smallest scenarios being only like 10 units.You can play the Bootcamp scenarios, for which you learn infantry tactics, as well learning to call in fire support with a Mortar.Then as you move on to more complex bootcamp scenarios, you will command a few companies, defending positions, and using Armor.

Once you learn to command a Battalion(Remember, each unit is a platoon, so a Battalion scenario isn't big), there is a battle generator to create Battalion to Corps Sized engagements with a few settings.Of course there are full easy to use editors to create your own scenarios.

Oh, and lets not forget there's 2D and 3D view to fit any gamer's preference.[8D]



Valgua -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 8:17:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

Conquest of the Agean and it's prequels are probably among the easiest of wargames to learn. The AI takes your orders and does all the hard work for you. It has been among the best wargaming systems since it's inception.


I agree but I would not recommend COTA to a beginner. Not because it is very complicated or because I don't like it (in fact I love it), but because it is untypical. A beginner should probably get used to the many explicit or implicit conventions which characterize a "normal" wargame. COTA is very specific.



Valgua -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 8:24:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dave Briggs

I notice a lot of you recommend TOAW III to newbies. It seems to me that TOAW is pretty complex for someone who has never played a wargame before. There is a lot going on there for a new person to assimilate. I would think that Tin Soldiers or the Tiller bundles would be much easier to start with. What is it about TOAW III that makes you guys think it's good for a beginner? I know it offers a lot of bang for the buck in the multitude of scenarios and eras but it sure seems to me that there is a fairly big learning curve just to get the game interaction down pat. I would think it might frustrate someone who has little gaming experience.



Well, TOAW I was only the second wargame I purchased (right after John Tiller's Battle of the Bulge). I find it very user-friendly. The complication starts only when you begin to look "under the hood" and you notice that the game "knows" how many tanks an armor unit has, how many were disabled in battle etc. But all this amount of info is not necessary to have fun. You can play and enjoy TOAWIII at a superficial level or more deeply. In fact TOAW is very good if you plan to start casually but with the willingness to become a more serious wargamer.



planner 3 -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 8:17:02 PM)

Edge: For ease of learning, multiple scenarios, various versions, and FREE, did I mention FREE, SPwaw is a IGO-UGO Game covering WW2, Add ons IE; Mega Campaigns (3 vers) may be purchased from Matrix if you get bored with canned scenarios and campaigns. I personally have played/replayed over 1500 scenarios in this game over the years so I may be considered biased. Heck try it and if you don't like it drop it from your machine. You can get it at the SPwaw Depot (www.spwaw.com). Tell'em Chief sent you.



Edge -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 9:34:23 PM)

Thanks for all the responses. So far, it seems to be:

The Operational Art of war III: 3 for, 2 against
John Tiller's Campaign Series: 4 for
Steel Panzer: WAW: 2 for
Conquest Of The Aegean: 2 for, 2 against
Tin Soldiers: 3 for
Panzer CK: 1 for
Harpoon CE: 1 for
John Tiller's Squad Battles: 1 for
Advanced Tactics: 2 for

I've downloaded the free Steel Panzer and People's Tactics as suggested to have a look at. I've also tried to download the Tin Soldiers demo a few times but it says it's corrupt when I unzip.

I probably also should have mentioned that I'm running Vista.

In response to Joe D.'s questions. yes, I am after a wargame :) Would probably prefer land-based as I assume it would give more variety of types of unit than land or air, although I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise. As for micro-managing, I'm not sure what you mean. I want to be responsible for every single unit move, which is why I want to start off with small maps and number of units while I work out what I'm doing, rather than just give general orders, but also don't want to have the ability to research anything, build anything, or have any sort of diplomacy options.

Thanks again. Will no doubt report back with more questions after I've given Steel Panzers and People's Tactics a spin.

Edge



Grymme -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 10:04:10 PM)

Ill add my ballot to World War II - Advanced Tactics.

Nice community, plenty of scenarios (90-100), incredibly flexible and an easy to use interface with huge depth under it.



Qwixt -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 10:07:10 PM)

It's hard to go wrong JTCS. It's like 3 games in one, and covers East front, West Front, and the war in the pacific. After the tutorial, you have the basics on how to play. You can put me down as a vote against TOAW III, because I do not think that is has a nice steady learning curve for a beginner.



Jonathan Pollard -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 10:15:12 PM)

If you like chess you might like the boardgame A House Divided by Phalanx Games, about the US Civil War. It does have replacement capability for both sides however. What makes it similar to chess is that you can move only a small fraction of your total units per turn, so choosing the right ones to move is often decisive. It also has a simple basic game for beginners and add-on optional rules for the more advanced player.



junk2drive -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 10:21:12 PM)

You have asked for opinions somewhat like asking what book should I read. There are so many choices. Narrowing it down to an historical period will help keep you interested while in learning mode.

I have:

SPWAW, free, good set of tutorials, lots of subject matter.

JTCS, not free but very good.

I don't have TOAW but think it might be more than you want.

PT, has supply management, may not fit your list.

PCK, beta team, good game but 3D and WEGO may not be for you.

If you wait a week or two, Operation Barbarosa will be released and is a good entry level WWII game. Somewhat chess like.





SeaMonkey -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 11:41:42 PM)

Edge just wait for Operation Barbarossa, I think this might be your cup of tea, a nostalgic initiation ala Panzer General.

What could be better?



V22 Osprey -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/23/2009 11:49:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey
What could be better?


John Tiller's Campaign Series.

Seriously, the votes speak for themselves, JTCS is the way to go.



killroyishere -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/24/2009 12:42:26 AM)

Well I'm going to step outside of just Matrixgames and recommend

Panzer General II

and

The Perfect General

and

Empires Deluxe

You can find demos of The Perfect General and Empires Deluxe here: http://killerbeesoftware.com/

and you can probably find Panzer General II here: http://www.ksourcerer.org/store/Discount-491286-B0007M1SMU-Panzer_General_II.html

You can probably find PG II cheaper if you just shop around that's just one source i've used in the past. Try Amazon.com and ebay.



ckammp -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/24/2009 2:14:39 AM)

deleted



SeaMonkey -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/24/2009 3:35:39 AM)

Probably correct with this, just make sure the game you choose has a low unit density, like chess.
quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey


quote:

ORIGINAL: SeaMonkey
What could be better?


John Tiller's Campaign Series.

Seriously, the votes speak for themselves, JTCS is the way to go.




Joe D. -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/24/2009 12:28:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Edge

In response to Joe D.'s questions. yes, I am after a wargame :) Would probably prefer land-based as I assume it would give more variety of types of unit than land or air, although I'm happy to be persuaded otherwise. As for micro-managing, I'm not sure what you mean. I want to be responsible for every single unit move ...


Being responsible for every single unit IS micro-managing, and you can do that w/the turn-based Tiller Civil War campaign series.
Of course, some of the larger battles, i.e., Gettysburg, require larger maps, but they can more easily be viewed at a smaller scale -- besides, the graphics on the larger scales leave much to be desired -- and there are many smaller scenarios w/each title.

My favorite type of turn-based game is WEGO, where both players make their respective moves, which are then simultaneously resolved. BoA and it's latest incarnation, WiA, comes to mind.

BTW, naval warfare can have many more units (ship types) than land warfare; PACWAR is a WEGO turn-based naval warfare game that is a free download on these forums, however, the learning curve is somewhat steep, but not nearly as steep as War in the Pacific or it's kid sister, Uncommon Valor.



vonRocko -> RE: Help choosing game please (8/24/2009 1:58:55 PM)

Try the new game Conquest medieval realms. It looks closer to chess then any others mentioned here.



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