some questions before buying (Full Version)

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PFrancis -> some questions before buying (8/23/2009 2:01:08 AM)

Some months ago I bought Toaw III and I`m loving the game until this moment, but visiting this site I saw an AAR showing a punic war mod and this grabbed my attention. The fact is that I`m always after games that can represent different periods... an universal system. I would like to place some questions to determine if it`s worth buying this game.

1. Are those mods, like the punic one, consistent. I mean, does the editor allow for a good representation of such different periods or is it just an adaptation, something like tanks or artillery with different icons adapted within possibilities to different functions?

2. Is it possible to find opponents to those scenarios or most of the people will only accept to play WWII scenarios? From my visits to Toaw forum, I noticed that even with a system less comprehensive than this one, WWII is preferred among players.

3. Is this community really active? I mean, playing against the AI tends to be very limited and from what I'm seeing, there isn't much activity on the general part of the forum and some players searching an opponent with no answers. In this aspect, it seems a little like Toaw: more activity among scenario designers than players... but I may be wrong.

4. I've read in a review that production doesn't differ in terms of time of production. A ship would take as long as a squad (or whatever) to be produced. Is there a way for designer to influence that? Even if I don't expect such a flexible game to be realistic to small details, this isn't so small a detail.

5. Perhaps the most important question: is this game in continual development? Are new versions planed? I'm always after a game that can be considered universal, like Toaw, since I don't want to go through a new learning curve just to be able to play another theater or period (scarce time for playing), but always, when I find something, it seems that it's condemned, that you have still some time ahead to get some benefit, but than, that's it. What's this game future in your opinion (if possible, unbiased opinion)? Will it be up to it's announced potential in the future, through users production of scenarios and mods or will it be one more of those old games with a dozen of residual players playing only the most popular scenarios?

I must apologize for all those questions, but as I said, I don't have the time to go through dozens of manuals of dozens of games to find the one that fits me. Comprehensiveness and an active community with opponents that will be as comprehensive as the game is what I'm looking for. A comprehensive game with players sticking to WWII is of no use to me, since then I would prefer to search for a specialized game.



82ndtrooper -> RE: some questions before buying (8/23/2009 2:43:32 AM)

I dont mod but ill try and answer your questions.

1. I think its very flexible. you can do a lot when creating a new unit type , like selecting which targets it likes to attack the most and how many times it can fire in a combat round its HP and morale etc...

2. i have never had a problem finding a game.  lots of times people just PM a poster without posting in his thread.

3. its a pretty active community I think.
4. i cant answer thgis one.
5. VIC the developer in very active on these forums and constantly answer questions and offers help to the players. he is also making a new game which will be compatible with the mods created for this game.

you can also look at this website and read about the new game in development and browse the scenario bank.  http://www.advancedtactics.org/ 

I personally feel this is the best turn based game i have played.

hope this helps



Grymme -> RE: some questions before buying (8/23/2009 10:01:06 AM)

Hi Pfrancis

Im happy my mod caught your attention. I have developed something like 16 scenarios for the game and might be able to answer some of your questions.

1) The editor is very "deep" which means you can change almost anything. Every type of unit can be changed for pretty much any statistic and the "ground rules" of the game can be changed. This means that almost any period/subject can be modelled. There scenario bank has everything from science fiction to fantasy (i made an LOTR scenario) and there are ACW, Napoleonic, WWI and some modern scenarios for the system. That being said there are some limitations (there are no line of sight which means that really small tactical scenarios can be difficult). I think there is something like 85 scenarios in the scenariobank right now (located here http://www.advancedtactics.org/scenariobank.php ) m. Also i host 10 scenarios in my webpage including the First Punic War.

2-3) The community is pretty active. It has been slacking of a little. But its still pretty easy to find opponents for almost all scenarios. I have never had problem finding an opponnet. The reason for the activity being a little lower than before is probably because 8-10 of the most active posters are Betatesting a second game by Vic. I currently have 3 PBMs going or starting. I do think that some scenarios are more popular than others, but they are not nescessarily the WWII. Also i think it becomes easyer finding PBEM opponents when you played the AI a while so you know the game and people know you.

4) In the vanilla game locations (typically cities) produce production points. A city produces say 2000pps. A rifle subunit costs 100 and a light tank costs 2000. So during a turn the city could produce either 20 riflemen or a light tank. However a heavy tank costs 6000 pps. So that city would only build 0,3 of a heavý tank in a round and it would take 3,3 rounds for the city to produce a heavy tank. So yes there are delays in some cases. That being said, if you have enough production points in a single location you could always produce what you wanted in one round. So a huge capitol with 10 000pps could always produce a battleship/round. But that is in the unmodified game. Different mods have used different methods to delay production.

5) There is another game being developed which will be compatible with AT. But Vic would have to answer this more closely. But you can read this post by Vic. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2110563

Also it should be noted that Advanced Tactics is the second (commercial version) of the original Peoples Tactics which can also be found here. http://www.advancedtactics.org/index.php

_______________

On a side note. I have never heard of a player buying AT that has become dissapointed. Ive played every week since it came out, and its still giving me new things. I promise you that you will not be dissapointed if you buy it. And the AI can be pretty challenginging. I played the AI for 3 months before i started PBEMing.

So buy it!




Widell -> RE: some questions before buying (8/23/2009 10:20:05 AM)

The (northern hemisphere :-) summer is normally somewhat calmer on all gaming forums, so I expect the activity to increase as autumn and winter comes along, so I wouldn't be worried about 2-3 above. If you like TOAW, you'll like this one too if you ask me.



Grymme -> RE: some questions before buying (8/23/2009 10:40:26 AM)

Was actually thinking about that also.



AttuWatcher -> RE: some questions before buying (8/23/2009 8:11:11 PM)

I'm debating between purchasing TOAW III or AT. Like PFrancis the Punic War scenario caught my attention as well as the Space scenario, though not because I want to play space but as a testament to the flexibility of the system. 
Thanks for the answers.



Grymme -> RE: some questions before buying (8/23/2009 8:23:19 PM)

Here are some other AARs to show the flexibility of the game

1 Here is an War of the Rings AAR. This scenario hasnt been entirely finished, but it is fully playable.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2004893


2 And here is an AAR from another Roman imperium mod (yes there is 2 of them)

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1891312


3 Or maybe an AAR from a NATO vs Warsaw pact WWIII game

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1943200

4 Finally the mother of all Advanced Tactics this 80 turn AAR of an Barbarossa campaign with playing that lasted for half a year
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1866376

The game has something like 90-100 fan made scenarios together with the 20 or so that comes with the game. Not bad for a game that was published less than 2 years ago.



Joshuatree -> RE: some questions before buying (8/23/2009 9:34:05 PM)

Well concerning your point 5; definitely yes. It is continuously in development and Vic is indeed very active and fast with his support. In fact, concerning support, he's one of the best I've ever seen.
And there are many more scenarios and mods than I can play, so that's a good thing.
Personally I play only against the AI because of my gaming habbits, sometimes I play only one turn in smaller scenarios, and just a part of a turn in bigger scenarios.... sure the AI is no match for a seasoned player... but multiple AI+'s sure can create some headaches for you.



Tufkal2 -> RE: some questions before buying (8/23/2009 10:01:05 PM)

Agree with the posts above. Dont know TOAW III but heres my 2ct:
This game is extremely versatile. The variety of mods is really great and a lot of them provide a unique setting. With the editor it is well possible to create scenarios which are close to the original WWII scenarios or which fundamentally change the rules (like the Vietnam scenario which makes air units much more important as well as simulating guerilla warfare).
And it seems like a lot of new scenarios are still being developed continuously (there is a new Space-Scenario "Space Opera" now bringing the number of space scenarios to 3 iirc).
The AI can provide a challenge for 1-2 months while learning the game but PBM really rules.
Also the stability of the game as well as the support provided by Vic is first rate.



AttuWatcher -> RE: some questions before buying (8/24/2009 3:44:05 AM)

Well I've picked it up and played through the tutorial and training scens. It's very easy to learn, well designed interface, and things are organized in a way that seems to make sense. I have not really needed to pull out the manual yet. I've found the statistical pages quite useful too. All-in-all I really like it it just feels fun and easy to play.

Now I feel ready to try one of the Roman mods but both are giving me a strange graphical problem. Will post in the tech support area.



Vasquez -> RE: some questions before buying (8/24/2009 1:03:29 PM)

I own both (TOAW and AT) and I love both games.

But I play AT more frequently. I like the freedom to customize units as I want and when I want. TOAW has more limitations here.

The editor is also very good and stable. But it take some time to understand the mechanics and functionality.



PFrancis -> RE: some questions before buying (8/24/2009 9:42:10 PM)

Thanks all! It seems in fact very promising. I think that such a flexible engine can go far with time given continuous support. But one thing got me worried: I've read the brief description of the new game to come in the page 82ndTrooper mentioned and it seems more specialized than the current version, i.e. more based on WWII specific variables. Will it keep the universal character of advanced tactics or will it bring it nearer to being one more WWII specialized engine?

Two extra questions:

I have seen some pictures of the game and I was only able to notice 4 or 5 terrain types (woods, forest, hills, open, mountain). I wasn't able to find things like escarpments, swamps, badlands, dense jungle etc. Does the editor provide ways of modeling other terrain types or one must do with what is available? If so, what are the terrain types available? I love map making and love analyzing maps for a best strategy and would like to know if the editor offers ways of modeling regions specificities.


The last question (not a very important one, in fact): Is there a way to change the proportion of the hex. I see that it was made so as to represent some tilt on the board, but with no perspective, which give me the impression of a squeezed view and since the counters aren't tilted in the same way, this impression gets stronger. Is there a way to mod that, changing the hex proportion to a regular one?

EDIT: Reading through the forum, I came across this: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2073797&mpage=1&key=
Even if it seems to have come to a halt, it shows the potential of such flexibility. Sure one can find specialized boardgames for any period and use vassal, for example, to play them, but then one has to learn a new system for each period and go after opponents in each case. Having an engine that can do it all (even if not necessarily 100% realistic) is my dream. If someone can answer the questions above, I promise I won't bother anymore with further questions... at least, before buying the game.[:D]



Barthheart -> RE: some questions before buying (8/25/2009 3:03:44 AM)

First question: With the editor you can make any kind of terrain you want.... even outer space!

Second question: No. The hex size and proportion are fixed.



Grymme -> RE: some questions before buying (8/25/2009 9:19:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: PFrancis

Thanks all! It seems in fact very promising. I think that such a flexible engine can go far with time given continuous support. But one thing got me worried: I've read the brief description of the new game to come in the page 82ndTrooper mentioned and it seems more specialized than the current version, i.e. more based on WWII specific variables. Will it keep the universal character of advanced tactics or will it bring it nearer to being one more WWII specialized engine?

Two extra questions:

I have seen some pictures of the game and I was only able to notice 4 or 5 terrain types (woods, forest, hills, open, mountain). I wasn't able to find things like escarpments, swamps, badlands, dense jungle etc. Does the editor provide ways of modeling other terrain types or one must do with what is available? If so, what are the terrain types available? I love map making and love analyzing maps for a best strategy and would like to know if the editor offers ways of modeling regions specificities.


The last question (not a very important one, in fact): Is there a way to change the proportion of the hex. I see that it was made so as to represent some tilt on the board, but with no perspective, which give me the impression of a squeezed view and since the counters aren't tilted in the same way, this impression gets stronger. Is there a way to mod that, changing the hex proportion to a regular one?

EDIT: Reading through the forum, I came across this: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2073797&mpage=1&key=
Even if it seems to have come to a halt, it shows the potential of such flexibility. Sure one can find specialized boardgames for any period and use vassal, for example, to play them, but then one has to learn a new system for each period and go after opponents in each case. Having an engine that can do it all (even if not necessarily 100% realistic) is my dream. If someone can answer the questions above, I promise I won't bother anymore with further questions... at least, before buying the game.[:D]



Pffrancis. Vic has said (i think) that the new game will be backwards compatible with AT. So that scenarios and such developed for AT will be playable in the new game. As for the specifics of the game. Advanced Tactics full name is Advanced Tactics - World War II (or something like that. It hasnt stopped people from developing all kinds of scenarios and i figure it wont with the new release either.

The terrain included in the basic game is plains, sea, light forrest, heavy forrest, low mountain, high mountain, swamp, urban, fortification, there are also streams, rivers and roads. But, as Barthearth says different mods have indeed included deserts, shallow water, mountain edges, escarpments etc. Terrain is entirely moddable. There is really several different types of map features. There is landscapes, locations, rivers and roads. Different locations can use different landscape types but also add such things as production, damage, port/airport ability etc. The river feature is really just a feature that sets up lines between hexes and can be used for escarpments, mountain borders etc also. And roads can be used to construct raillines etc also (although there is a limitation that engineers can only construct one type of road).

The hex proportion is not moddable. But you can remove the hexes from sight. (although they are still there. Also you can make new terrain locations from a different angle (but the hex perspective is still there.



PFrancis -> RE: some questions before buying (8/28/2009 7:45:55 PM)

Thanks for the answers once more. One aspect I forgot to ask, you seem to have answered in anticipation: the lack of railroads. Looking at the maps on the AARs I noticed this. I went through some modding tutorials, even if I don't have the game yet, just to see, more or less, how the editor worked. It seems that one can't place one terrain type on top of another like in toaw, but it seems that there are ways of doing things like a mountainous forest region with a city in it by creating new graphics and setting terrain characteristics, isn't it? What about placing roads and railways in the same hex?

I know I promised to stop questions before buying, but the observation of using roads as railways brought me those doubts.s



Grymme -> RE: some questions before buying (8/28/2009 8:00:22 PM)

You can place locations in terrain so you can for example have fortresses in forests. But for terrain in terrain you will have to make that special terrain. Mountainous forrest. Then you make a new terraintype called mountainous forrest. There is a mod with lots of theese examples. I think its called classical wargame mod or something like that.

Placing several types of roads in the same hex is tricky. There really is no way to place several types of road in the same hex in the editor. But some workarounds is possible. For example Captain Cruft is working around the issue by making railroads a location instead of an road. Both are buildable by engineers. By doing that you can have a road in a hex and also have the hex contain a rail location. Another workaround might be to make a hex an "area" and then define that area as making certain SFTs (trail moving) move faster.

The basic principle is that there are different types of map features such as locations, roads, rivers and terrain, areas etc. You can only have one of each in each hex (except for areas). But there is no problem agains editing locations to behave like terrain, terrain like roads, rivers like certain terrain etc.



PFrancis -> RE: some questions before buying (8/28/2009 10:37:20 PM)

Grymme, let me abuse from your good will a bit.

The first thing I like to do with a game is to tweak the graphics, mainly when it`s not the strong point of the game. Is it hard to deal with graphics in AT? I have been analyzing some screen captures in this forum and it seems that each terrain type use one specific sprite, since the pattern repeats. At the same time, I see that it overlaps the hex borders, which suggests more than one pattern fitting together. Is it possible to use multiple patterns fitting together to create a more organic look or those parts overlapping the hex borders are one single huge sprite overlapping the nearby terrain graphics? If it is possible, how will the game know which patterns go together? I ask this because I have known awkward systems which would make one give up tweaking graphics because of the difficulty to make things fit. I work with graphics, so that creating the elements is easy, but I want to know if making them fit inside the game won't be a nightmare.



Grymme -> RE: some questions before buying (8/29/2009 12:59:06 AM)

No problem

Each terrain type can have an infinate (or at least many) sets of graphics. For example. For urban there is something like 8 different main sprites. Then each kind of urban can be loaded onto the map. Also there are something kalled "extra sprites" or something like that that are 64 different border sprites that can be used together with the sprite to make border areas. Then there is hex overlap factor that you can decide etc etc.

So yes you can create a more organic look. I dont think its difficult if you are graphicly gifted (thats the main thing keeping me from going to much in that direction. The game will know where to put these 64 extra sprites (how exactly but probably from the order). nr 1 etc. this is not my strong suite, although you can see some modified sprites here.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2199822

If you look at post 10. You will see that the mountains and forests have these organic forms because of the 64 border sprites. The urban hexes doesnt (or at least not activated), they are taken from another set of graphics. The fish cannery, mud baths, cement factory and old fort are all custom made sprites (although not very good ones). For example both Cement factory and old fort are the terrain "fortification", but use different sprites &jpgs. The editor can use both bmps, jpgs and pngs (maybe more formats, im not sure).

Fitting them will not be a nightmare. But this is not my speciality.


Btw. The "old fort" sprite is an actuall overview of the actual old fort in the Novorrosissk harbour which i zoomed in on with google maps. Cool :)



PFrancis -> RE: some questions before buying (8/30/2009 1:16:50 AM)

Apart from the limitations with roads, the rest sounds great. Thanks for your patience.



Grymme -> RE: some questions before buying (8/30/2009 10:27:50 AM)

No problems, let us know if you pick it up and want a game or help with the editor.



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