BB's too fragile now?

BB's too fragile now? (Full Version)

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John Lansford -> BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 11:45:29 AM)
In 4 months of campaign games (3 months the first one and 1 in the 2nd after the patch), the AI has had 4 BB's sunk. In the first one, Hiei went down from a single torpedo hit, and Kongo sank from a single 800kg hit by a lucky Dutch bomber. In my 2nd CG, Yamashiro was pounded to bits by PoW at close range (a dozen or so 14" hits), and Hyuga was sunk by a PBY Catalina's torpedo hit. That's three out of four BB's that sank from single hits. Some of this might be FoW stuff, but at least one of these sinkings were confirmed later on. Has anyone else noticed this? OTOH, even some of my smaller cruisers have taken Long Lance torpedo hits and made it back to harbor without too much trouble. Java and Tromp have both been hit by LL torpedoes and are now in Singapore getting patched up.

Mus -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:10:32 PM)
Unless the single hit caused a catastrophic secondary explosion like a magazine going up single hit BB sinkings don't seem very plausible.

EUBanana -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:11:26 PM)
Maybe the AI does a sucking job of getting damaged BBs home in time.

hellfirejet -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:13:09 PM)
Can't really help with that one,since I have always felt that ships are to easy to sink in the stock game,I never play the stock version,all my ships have increased AA weapons capability via the editor,plus better durability and manouverability,my version the ships give the planes as good as they get.[;)]

John Lansford -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:29:15 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EUBanana Maybe the AI does a sucking job of getting damaged BBs home in time. That may be it; Hyuga was moored in (enemy controlled) Davao harbor when the PBY torpedoed it. Kongo and Hiei were cruising off of Palembang in my first CG and had been there for over a week, not doing anything but steaming in one or two hexes. It's possible that the damage routines telling the AI "get this ship repaired" aren't being triggered until the ship's crippled from fire or flooding, and then it's too late.

Terminus -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:37:07 PM)
Good grief... First merchies are "too fragile" and now it's battlewagons...[8\|]

John Lansford -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:39:09 PM)
I think it's a bit unrealistic to sink 3 of 4 BB's with single hits, Terminus. One sinking from a lucky magazine hit, sure, but 3? My guys don't have LGB's or guided torpedoes, you know.

tigercub -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:40:59 PM)
something to keep a eye on, 3 losses to single hits is a little worry Any more losses to single hits should posted here to give them all an idea of whats going on. Tiger!

Jensemann -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:42:08 PM)
Didnt you say only one of thoose sinkings were confirmed?

michaelm75au -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:42:49 PM)
Without some save to look at and see what state the BBs were in, it is a bit hard to say what is right or wrong.

Aterpa -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:46:13 PM)
You should be very careful now with the sunk ships list. There is a lot of FOW! In my current game I thought I had sunk 3 USN BBs. But meanwhile all of them have been reported to be still in service. Sometimes it takes several months after the supposed sinking until you get the corrected report.

Mike Scholl -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:46:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John Lansford I think it's a bit unrealistic to sink 3 of 4 BB's with single hits, Terminus. One sinking from a lucky magazine hit, sure, but 3? My guys don't have LGB's or guided torpedoes, you know. Are you playing with FOW on? I get a report of every ship I hit "sinking", but apparently they grow little wheels on the bottom and drive back to get fixed.

EUBanana -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:56:41 PM)
FOW is major, I saw CV Wasp take a sub torpedo and was promptly in my list as 'sunk', and I know full well it wasn't sunk. Wasn't even left on heavy damage.

Terminus -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 12:58:27 PM)
There's one thing all you people seem to fail to grasp here. The ships ARE NOT DIFFERENT!!! They have the same armour, the same durability, the same maneuverability rating, everything. What's different is what can go wrong with them. Pick up on that instead of harping on about "fragile" ships.

AW1Steve -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 1:09:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Terminus There's one thing all you people seem to fail to grasp here. The ships ARE NOT DIFFERENT!!! They have the same armour, the same durability, the same maneuverability rating, everything. What's different is what can go wrong with them. Pick up on that instead of harping on about "fragile" ships. So the next battlecry will be "The FOW is Broken!" ???[:D]

John Lansford -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 1:13:44 PM)
It may be FoW; all those pilots and sub commanders reporting the ships sinking as they watch. I'm thinking that Hyuga sinking from the torpedo hit may be accurate, though; after the PBY hit her the TF remained in the harbor and no longer reports the BB as being there. Perhaps the ships aren't "fragile" but the AI isn't figuring out when to send them off for repairs before it is too late? For example, an ABDA squadron sank Chiyoda last night, but an earlier TF had shot her up a few days before this one found her. She was still in the same hex, only now burning, when the 2nd TF sank her. I posted the AAR in the "surface combat" thread this morning.

tigercub -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 1:18:28 PM)
Good update thanks lots of people would not know that so it does help! his problem would be just FOW. Tiger!

jimh009 -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 2:26:20 PM)
All I know is that the Allied carrier air wings have bombed the hell out of Japanese BB's in my game, but most of the BB's seem to live on. Moreover, the bombing of Japanese BB's led to LOTS of air casualties for the Allies. It's the primary reason my carriers are now sitting in port...waiting for replacement aircraft. While I've sunk three Japanese BB's, it was anything but easy and cost-free and it required multiple air strikes over several days. Torpedoes, not surprisingly, are much more effective against BB's than bombs. The three BB's sunk in my game have the DevastatorsAvengers to thank for it...I don't think the 1000 pound bombs dropped on them did much damage.

Joe D. -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 2:41:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: John Lansford I think it's a bit unrealistic to sink 3 of 4 BB's with single hits, Terminus. One sinking from a lucky magazine hit, sure, but 3 ... I had a US BB in a 15-ship TF sunk by a single torpedo from a Kate in the 'Canal scenario; although there was no mention of a magazine explosion, or other catastrophic event, I have seen these messages in more plausable sinkings, i.e., a Beaufort's bomb explodes the magazine of an IJN CA and down she goes: those long lance torpedoes were a two-edged sword. BTW, I should have saved the screen-shot of an IJN SS releasing two torpedoes to sink its US counterpart as it sailed on the surface off its home port on the Aussie coast! Is it possible that the LLs are too powerful in AE?

John Lansford -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 2:55:24 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Joe D. quote: ORIGINAL: John Lansford I think it's a bit unrealistic to sink 3 of 4 BB's with single hits, Terminus. One sinking from a lucky magazine hit, sure, but 3 ... I had a US BB in a 15-ship TF sunk by a single torpedo from a Kate in the 'Canal scenario; although there was no mention of a magazine explosion, or other catastrophic event, I have seen these messages in more plausable sinkings, i.e., a Beaufort's bomb explodes the magazine of an IJN CA and down she goes: those long lance torpedoes were a two-edged sword. BTW, I should have saved the screen-shot of an IJN SS releasing two torpedoes to sink its US counterpart as it sailed on the surface off its home port on the Aussie coast! Is it possible that the LLs are too powerful in AE? Heh; I'm 1 for 1 when it comes to subs sinking other subs. One of mine torpedoed an I-boat and sank it, just this morning one of my damaged subs was headed for Manila when an I-boat found and torpedoed him. As for the LL's being too powerful, not from what I've seen. PoW took a LL in a melee and only suffered 20+ flotation damage. I also had both Java and Perth (both smallish CL's) get LL'ed and made it to Singapore with moderate damage. I've not had many ships get hit with them so far so my observations may just be on the low side of the bell curve, though.

JohnDillworth -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 3:14:06 PM)
quote: I think it's a bit unrealistic to sink 3 of 4 BB's with single hits ""Chatfield, there seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today." David Beatty

oldman45 -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 3:36:20 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: jimh009 All I know is that the Allied carrier air wings have bombed the hell out of Japanese BB's in my game, but most of the BB's seem to live on. Moreover, the bombing of Japanese BB's led to LOTS of air casualties for the Allies. It's the primary reason my carriers are now sitting in port...waiting for replacement aircraft. While I've sunk three Japanese BB's, it was anything but easy and cost-free and it required multiple air strikes over several days. Torpedoes, not surprisingly, are much more effective against BB's than bombs. The three BB's sunk in my game have the DevastatorsAvengers to thank for it...I don't think the 1000 pound bombs dropped on them did much damage. This happend in my game too.

DrewMatrix -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 3:44:12 PM)
Had consective engagements (Scen 6 Allies vs AI) between 2 IJ BBs and 6 US BBs + Hornet bombing a few times. The IJ lost 1 BB. The other IJ BB and the 6 US BBs took a few hits (some of the IJ damage inflicted SBDs) and sailed away. The less damaged IJ BB had 20-2-5-1 damage (which it was fixing even while retiring). Note that is after 2 days of air attacks and surface combat. So at least in that example the BBs seem resilient.

EUBanana -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 3:53:43 PM)
I've had torpedo hits on BBs do anywhere between 5 and 40 flotation damage. Much randomness. But I think on average a BB can absorb 1 or 2 just fine, its when you get up to 3 or 4 that there's a fight on to get it home. Usually 1 torpedo hit isn't enough to even get it to abort its mission. I've had BB Washington take single torp hits (plus shell hits from cruisers) on two occasions in the Guad scenario - both times it completed its mission, and damage was so minor it was only a couple of weeks shipyard time on both occasions.

rroberson -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 4:23:43 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: AW1Steve quote: ORIGINAL: Terminus There's one thing all you people seem to fail to grasp here. The ships ARE NOT DIFFERENT!!! They have the same armour, the same durability, the same maneuverability rating, everything. What's different is what can go wrong with them. Pick up on that instead of harping on about "fragile" ships. So the next battlecry will be "The FOW is Broken!" ???[:D] Clearly they are given that this isn't the first question regarding surface ships. I still believe Allied ships are having their way with the Imperial navy in surface battles (particuarly night ones).

LiquidSky -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 5:14:49 PM)
Before you alarmists start crying fire, I would suggest a couple of things... First of all. Turn FOW off. Telling me the random lies that spew out of the mouths of your pilots as god given fact is getting a little old. I am playing a PBEM game right now with a friend of mine, and we are always 'comparing notes'. The other day, he hit my 3 CA 4CL japanese fleet with two cv air strikes, reporting mass sinkings. The result? Mostly 1's and 2's and a couple of 7's with some guns knocked out. This morning I apparently sunk the BB North Carolina with a single torp hit from a Betty. Did I? I doubt it. The AA results are also way out of wack with reality. The combat results have so far (in 4 sorties) shot down 1.5 times as many planes as I have in the two squadrons. And the damages way more. The reality? Only about half the squadrons are shot down. One result that does seem to bode well is that a ship is on fire. So far that has been a good indication that a ship is going to sink. Second of all, Run a simulation several times. Should you be able to sink a ship from one shot? Of course. It should be improbable, and the only way to know that would be to run 10, 50, or even hundreds of simulations. Maybe it will be sunk 1 out of 100, or maybe 1 in 10,000...and it happened once in your game. Maybe even twice, but can you repeat it every game? So please...keep your FOW to yourself. If you want to contribute meaningfully, by all means, turn of FOW and tell us all about the strange events that are occuring. We would all benefit from your experiences.

rroberson -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 5:50:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LiquidSky Before you alarmists start crying fire, I would suggest a couple of things... First of all. Turn FOW off. Telling me the random lies that spew out of the mouths of your pilots as god given fact is getting a little old. I am playing a PBEM game right now with a friend of mine, and we are always 'comparing notes'. The other day, he hit my 3 CA 4CL japanese fleet with two cv air strikes, reporting mass sinkings. The result? Mostly 1's and 2's and a couple of 7's with some guns knocked out. This morning I apparently sunk the BB North Carolina with a single torp hit from a Betty. Did I? I doubt it. The AA results are also way out of wack with reality. The combat results have so far (in 4 sorties) shot down 1.5 times as many planes as I have in the two squadrons. And the damages way more. The reality? Only about half the squadrons are shot down. One result that does seem to bode well is that a ship is on fire. So far that has been a good indication that a ship is going to sink. Second of all, Run a simulation several times. Should you be able to sink a ship from one shot? Of course. It should be improbable, and the only way to know that would be to run 10, 50, or even hundreds of simulations. Maybe it will be sunk 1 out of 100, or maybe 1 in 10,000...and it happened once in your game. Maybe even twice, but can you repeat it every game? So please...keep your FOW to yourself. If you want to contribute meaningfully, by all means, turn of FOW and tell us all about the strange events that are occuring. We would all benefit from your experiences. No fire being cried here. Facts are facts. I have something like 8 or 9 PBEM games going and I am the japanese in the bulk of them (yea I'm insane [:D] ). And I have time and time again watched Japanese surface groups bear the brunt of surface battles. I had a lone beast torpedo one of my BBs and sink it. I have watched allied surface ships dominate heavier japanese groups "at night". It's not me being alarmist its me merely commenting on what I have seen. To say that this stuff isn't happening just because it has happened to "you" is to ignore the rest of us who have seen it happen. Now is it luck of the dice (bad) maybe, but it is happening.

pad152 -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 6:04:01 PM)
Fog of war is more like fog for players, I've seen the BC Prince of Wales reported sunk 3 times now, it's even in the list of ship ships yet, it's still sailing around. Japan seems to be fairing better in surface combat with the beta patch so far.

Mike Scholl -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 6:14:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: pad152 Fog of war is more like fog for players, And as a player you are in the role of your side's high command..., who were forced to sift through this kind of "pilot optimism" throughout the war. The Allied Command soon learned to take it with a big grain of salt (and to verify it with gun camera photos and broken codes). The Japanese seemed to have accepted it much more readily, which lead to a good deal of their own wishfull thinking in planning for continual "decisive battles" into late 1944.

John Lansford -> RE: BB's too fragile now? (9/1/2009 6:47:41 PM)
Well gee, Mr. LiquidSky, thanks for the informed opinion there. I guess noting that the BB in question was sitting in an Allied port and therefore well identified, and after the torpedo hit it disappeared and appeared on the sunk screen, isn't good enough for you? No cripples left Davao (the entire area is full of Dutch subs), no search planes spotted a second TF, nothing. And that's not the one that was confirmed, either. That one was the 800kg hit from the lucky Dutch pilot; the damage report was listed as "on fire" after the attack, and I DID see a 'crippled' TF leaving the well patrolled and spotted area. Then the TF 'lost' the larger ship and became only a pair of DD's, at which time the "sunk" appeared on the list. I'd say those two were definites; the one I was questioning was the lone torpedo hit by a sub, since I saw no evidence of a seriously damaged ship leaving the area. So, in response to your "keep your FoW out of these comments", I'd say that I'm hardly reporting what the pilots/captains tell me here, so perhaps you could think next time before you post?

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