Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (Full Version)

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Wittmann30 -> Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 12:41:41 PM)

Hi there,

i wonder how accurate the combat reports are. Do they also have a new FOW feature build in?

Example of an PBEM turn: combat report tells several shell hits and two torpedo hits on a ship. When i loaded the turn, this ship has 1 System Damage and 1 Flooding Damage only ( yes..that ship named coincidentally USS Boise )

So FOW on in combat reports?




khyberbill -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 12:49:32 PM)

I would think it would be on since both sides see the combat replay or there would be no point of FOW.



John Lansford -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 2:20:56 PM)

What I find amusing is when the on-screen combat reports tell me that a "Gearing class DD" was sunk by enemy air attack, when I'm sitting there watching the Dutch DD Piet Hein go under.  How do my own men get one of their own ships that wrong?



aciddrinker -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 2:26:44 PM)

remember that in pbem both sides see same turn replay, so i guess that was FoW, jezzz ppl for this what was sunked and destroyed is OpRaport.



Wittmann30 -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 2:29:57 PM)

Thanks for the answers, so i see FOW is on in combat reports. But technicaly, how accurate are they? Example: Ship X recieved 10 Shell Hits according to combat report. Is there percentaged aberration up and down of "real" hits programmed?





Marty A -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 2:32:58 PM)

With all the fow it is hard to know what is really going on with false sights and combat reports yet the naval and sub react is infallible.



Xargun -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 2:34:16 PM)

I can't speak for the Dev Team or the specifics, but usually when I only see 1 hit (shell, bomb or torpedo) I usually don't count it as a hit. I figure roughly 25% of all reported hits, planes destroyed, etc.. are lies. Only until I get that 2nd or 3rd hit on a ship do I get a smile.

What I do like now in AE is that FOW affects the sunk ship list. Nothing like having a ship show up as sunk only to run into it again the next turn [:D]

Xargun



Wittmann30 -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 2:41:30 PM)

Ah, okay, 25% of false reports could be...but what me come to mind (sounds a bit crazy), if it maybe has something to do with the "hit spotters" experiance...could that be? Dev Team maybe answers?
Overall i like the new FOW in AE right out of the box, i am just curious how the programm handle this kind of FOW..




fbs -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 3:35:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wittmann30

Hi there,

i wonder how accurate the combat reports are. Do they also have a new FOW feature build in?

Example of an PBEM turn: combat report tells several shell hits and two torpedo hits on a ship. When i loaded the turn, this ship has 1 System Damage and 1 Flooding Damage only ( yes..that ship named coincidentally USS Boise )

So FOW on in combat reports?




This is a recurring point that I fought around for the original WITP (the developers weren't moved then), then I raised again in AE (still they weren't moved), so I created one permanent thread about changes to avoid this going to the limbo once again (but still no answers from developers).

The combat animation and the combat reports are always fogged for both sides, so you can see your own ships sinking when they weren't, have your squadron leader reporting he lost 20 of his aircrafts when he lost 1, the task force commander will report wrong hits, incorrect damage, and so forth.

For me this is the single most annoying, cumbersome, unrealistic, frustrating and unlucky issue in the entire game. I understand there is no way around this for PBEM, but when playing against the AI, why can't the fog be lifted for my own losses??! It forces me to review every single one of my air groups after each combat, and in many cases forces me to reload the previous turn to find out how many aircrafts were actually lost.

Perhaps if I complain long and enough about this, this dubious "feature" may be removed by 2030.

fbs



Sheytan -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 4:13:44 PM)

lol!

Perhaps if I complain long and enough about this, this dubious "feature" may be removed by 2030.

Worse part is a PBEM game, I put 3 torps and some bombs in a US CV even saying it was obscured by smoke etc, and it will probably sink one of my battleships next turn![;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


quote:

ORIGINAL: Wittmann30

Hi there,

i wonder how accurate the combat reports are. Do they also have a new FOW feature build in?

Example of an PBEM turn: combat report tells several shell hits and two torpedo hits on a ship. When i loaded the turn, this ship has 1 System Damage and 1 Flooding Damage only ( yes..that ship named coincidentally USS Boise )

So FOW on in combat reports?




This is a recurring point that I fought around for the original WITP (the developers weren't moved then), then I raised again in AE (still they weren't moved), so I created one permanent thread about changes to avoid this going to the limbo once again (but still no answers from developers).

The combat animation and the combat reports are always fogged for both sides, so you can see your own ships sinking when they weren't, have your squadron leader reporting he lost 20 of his aircrafts when he lost 1, the task force commander will report wrong hits, incorrect damage, and so forth.

For me this is the single most annoying, cumbersome, unrealistic, frustrating and unlucky issue in the entire game. I understand there is no way around this for PBEM, but when playing against the AI, why can't the fog be lifted for my own losses??! It forces me to review every single one of my air groups after each combat, and in many cases forces me to reload the previous turn to find out how many aircrafts were actually lost.



fbs




fbs -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 4:24:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

lol!

Perhaps if I complain long and enough about this, this dubious "feature" may be removed by 2030.

Worse part is a PBEM game, I put 3 torps and some bombs in a US CV even saying it was obscured by smoke etc, and it will probably sink one of my battleships next turn![;)]




yeah, hahaha... actually I don't mind too much fogging of friendly ships, because you can infer a lot from the ship list (ship at sea, has damage, so it probably was damaged by the enemy, hehehe). But this is a real killer for air groups -- there is absolutely no way of knowing how many aircrafts you lost in a given air group in last turn, without reloading the turn and comparing all groups that match the aircraft type that was lost on last turn. Huge, huge, huge bugger there -- unless, of course, you don't mind not knowing how many aircrafts you lost on your air group on the last engagement with the Zeros :^)


Cheers! [:D]
fbs



grraven2004 -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 5:51:03 PM)

I love the new FOW. The missclassed ships. A2A not as accurate to judge off of. Makes a person wonder if they really did sink that ship. Just about every ship hit gets into the sunk ship list only to be removed later as it is shot at again or it is blasting you to bits. Nice change from the old game.



fbs -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/3/2009 5:56:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: grraven2004

I love the new FOW. The missclassed ships. A2A not as accurate to judge off of. Makes a person wonder if they really did sink that ship. Just about every ship hit gets into the sunk ship list only to be removed later as it is shot at again or it is blasting you to bits. Nice change from the old game.



Right, fogging the enemy ships is really cool -- also fogging the enemy air losses. All that is quite realistic. What's unrealistic is to not know your own losses.

Cheers [:D]
fbs



Pascal_slith -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 7:33:14 AM)

The basic problem comes from the fact that the Combat Report is visible to both sides. There are not two Combat Reports generated (with password protection for each so no cheating).

Somewhere down the road, two sets of reports (Combat, Ops) will have to be generated, and password protected, specific to each side. The SigInt reports could be password protected too...



jomni -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 10:39:44 AM)

quote:

For me this is the single most annoying, cumbersome, unrealistic, frustrating and unlucky issue in the entire game
.

I love firendly fog of war! It adds to the thrill of the game.
It is quite realistic. Think of yourself as a commander sitting in the General HQ and not the commander of the TF that is actually doing battle...



m10bob -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 12:47:23 PM)

I like FOW on both sides..If I am the overall commander, sitting on my keester back at Pearl, chomping on a 2 day old cigar I swiped from Bill Halsey and a report comes in, I should expect it to have some errors.
Sure, the report might have said a Gearing class DD went down, but if I'm such a lousy CO that I don't know Gearings were not in that force, maybe I need to spend more time down in the harbor, and less time in the head?



fbs -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 12:49:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

quote:

For me this is the single most annoying, cumbersome, unrealistic, frustrating and unlucky issue in the entire game
.

I love firendly fog of war! It adds to the thrill of the game.
It is quite realistic. Think of yourself as a commander sitting in the General HQ and not the commander of the TF that is actually doing battle...



That's ok, but how do you find out how many aircrafts one of your groups lost in the last air combat, jomni? You can't trust the combat report, the air group only give you the total pilots lost for alld dates, and the intelligence report gives you the totals for last day for all groups.

There is no way to know how many aircrafts a given group lost. In real life, the commanders know that.

Cheers [:D]
fbs



rubisco -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 1:26:22 PM)

It's quite straightforward. Play with automatic replacements turned off and then merely subtract the number of aircraft in the group this turn from
the number last turn. That will give your losses.



fbs -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 1:32:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rubisco

It's quite straightforward. Play with automatic replacements turned off and then merely subtract the number of aircraft in the group this turn from
the number last turn. That will give your losses.



Exactly -- so you need to either write down somewhere how many a/c your air groups have, or you need to reload the last turn.

Precisely my point: that's a lot of manual work.

Plus you'll need to balance that against total last turn losses, because your air group may have lost aircrafts for operational losses, and may have gotten aircrafts from replacements (you will have to turn replacement on at some point in time). And if you have multiple combats you'll never know how many were lost to each combat.

Cheers [:D]
fbs



Nux Mortis -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 1:38:49 PM)

For my playstyle, i just dont need to know how much aircraft in a turn got lost exactly, so i have no manual work.



xj900uk -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 1:51:36 PM)

FoW on your own side was quite common in WWII.  Lots of people were reported as killed in action, dead, buried and funerals held only to turn up when hostilities ceased in 1945...

I had a distant great uncle who was reported killed when Singapore fell in February 1942.  His wife re-married in 1944 and lo and behold guess who should walk through the family door on Christmas Eve 1945, completely immaciated and suffering from several diseases after workign for a couple of years on the Death Railway.?
Incidentally, they weren't very pleased to see him and threw him out.  As my great uncle had been declared legally dead he needed a court order to get this over-turned & access to the family funds/fortune/family house - he failed and ended up on the streets with nothing (before the war he'd been quite high-placed in a well-known oil company).
Fortunately for all concerned his experiences working on behalf of the Emperor of Nippon had left him permanetnly weakened and he died in a hostel for the down&outs from pneumonia in 1948.

On a more slightly amusing note,  the Ark Royal was reported sink several times by German propaganda before a sub finally got her in 1941.  More to the point on a couple of occassions the BBC reported it sunk as well...

Family history over - proof of the point is that Fog of War affects both your own reported losses/deaths/sinkings as well as that of the enemy.



fbs -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 4:31:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

FoW on your own side was quite common in WWII.  Lots of people were reported as killed in action, dead, buried and funerals held only to turn up when hostilities ceased in 1945...

I had a distant great uncle who was reported killed when Singapore fell in February 1942.  His wife re-married in 1944 and lo and behold guess who should walk through the family door on Christmas Eve 1945, completely immaciated and suffering from several diseases after workign for a couple of years on the Death Railway.?
Incidentally, they weren't very pleased to see him and threw him out.  As my great uncle had been declared legally dead he needed a court order to get this over-turned & access to the family funds/fortune/family house - he failed and ended up on the streets with nothing (before the war he'd been quite high-placed in a well-known oil company).
Fortunately for all concerned his experiences working on behalf of the Emperor of Nippon had left him permanetnly weakened and he died in a hostel for the down&outs from pneumonia in 1948.

On a more slightly amusing note,  the Ark Royal was reported sink several times by German propaganda before a sub finally got her in 1941.  More to the point on a couple of occassions the BBC reported it sunk as well...

Family history over - proof of the point is that Fog of War affects both your own reported losses/deaths/sinkings as well as that of the enemy.



Hahaha.. that's true soldiers get catch in friendly forces fog. But it is unrealistic that every single air combat report is inaccurate.

I have this mental picture:

"-- Squadron Leader Joseph, this is your boss; how are you doing?"
"-- I'm not sure, Sir; my pilots told me half the squadron was shot down yesterday, but I can't trust the dirty bastards, as they are always lying"
"-- You don't know how many aircrafts you lost yesterday?"
"-- That's right, Sir. For example, Flight Officer Barnabe told me yesterday evening that he was killed in the afternoon. I believed his report, but an hour later I found him in the Mess messing with the nurses."
"-- So the report you sent me yesterday was wrong?"
"-- No, Sir, the report is right."
"-- How come?"
"-- I shot pilot Barnabe and dumped his aircraft on the river, so now he is actually dead."
"-- Good job, Squadron Leader, keep it up!"

Cheers [:D]
fbs



steveh11Matrix -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 4:51:37 PM)

The real problem with FOW on your own side's losses/damage is that, while reasonable where the player represents the high-level commander, it's totally unreasonable where the player represents the ship or squadron commander. WitP has always had a schizophrenic side, and it comes out quite strongly here.

Related question: If I turn FoW OFF, is it really off? I get the strong impression that the answers "No, not really, it's just a little less obvious!" but it would be good to know.

Steve.



Wittmann30 -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 4:52:00 PM)

Hehe...good one fbs [:D]

I have to say, my intention of starting this thread was not about pros and cons of FOW...but actually ask HOW that FOW technicaly works, which factors are relevant to get false reports, dependencies etc...maybe an official of the Dev Team could maybe give an answer.

Maybe a short question list helps:

1. What are the dependicies and factors lead to a false report? (technicaly)

2. Is it possbible that combat report also tells false ship names/types? ( simple example: combat report tells BB Ise is in a TF but in real it's not BB Ise but BB Kongo )

3. Ground combat, if the enemy captures a base, combat report reveals the attacking ground units by name. Is this correct or could be also false?

Thanks in advance :)




witpqs -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 6:29:12 PM)

I like the FOW.



m10bob -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 6:30:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs

quote:

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

FoW on your own side was quite common in WWII.  Lots of people were reported as killed in action, dead, buried and funerals held only to turn up when hostilities ceased in 1945...

I had a distant great uncle who was reported killed when Singapore fell in February 1942.  His wife re-married in 1944 and lo and behold guess who should walk through the family door on Christmas Eve 1945, completely immaciated and suffering from several diseases after workign for a couple of years on the Death Railway.?
Incidentally, they weren't very pleased to see him and threw him out.  As my great uncle had been declared legally dead he needed a court order to get this over-turned & access to the family funds/fortune/family house - he failed and ended up on the streets with nothing (before the war he'd been quite high-placed in a well-known oil company).
Fortunately for all concerned his experiences working on behalf of the Emperor of Nippon had left him permanetnly weakened and he died in a hostel for the down&outs from pneumonia in 1948.

On a more slightly amusing note,  the Ark Royal was reported sink several times by German propaganda before a sub finally got her in 1941.  More to the point on a couple of occassions the BBC reported it sunk as well...

Family history over - proof of the point is that Fog of War affects both your own reported losses/deaths/sinkings as well as that of the enemy.



Hahaha.. that's true soldiers get catch in friendly forces fog. But it is unrealistic that every single air combat report is inaccurate.

I have this mental picture:

"-- Squadron Leader Joseph, this is your boss; how are you doing?"
"-- I'm not sure, Sir; my pilots told me half the squadron was shot down yesterday, but I can't trust the dirty bastards, as they are always lying"
"-- You don't know how many aircrafts you lost yesterday?"
"-- That's right, Sir. For example, Flight Officer Barnabe told me yesterday evening that he was killed in the afternoon. I believed his report, but an hour later I found him in the Mess messing with the nurses."
"-- So the report you sent me yesterday was wrong?"
"-- No, Sir, the report is right."
"-- How come?"
"-- I shot pilot Barnabe and dumped his aircraft on the river, so now he is actually dead."
"-- Good job, Squadron Leader, keep it up!"

Cheers [:D]
fbs



No, you are not getting it, my friend.
The combat report is the one going to the highest muckity-muck..
If the squadron commander wants to know what his real losses are, he will look at his unit and see how many planes, pilots he has at end of day..



witpqs -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 6:41:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

The combat report is the one going to the highest muckity-muck..



Exactly! YOU are the same as the highest (albeit 'combined') muckity-muck in WWII. Instead of shuffling between an office and various conference rooms, reading and hearing reports made by subordinates in person and over the telephone, you read/see whatever information you get via the computer. You send orders to the units, remotely. You do not even get to deliver those orders yourself. That's the design of WITP/AE.



fbs -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 7:41:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
No, you are not getting it, my friend.
The combat report is the one going to the highest muckity-muck..


I'm not sure of that. The current combat report seems more like the vision that the flight commander had during the actual combat. It's more like: "Oh no, we lost Jimmy, Johnny and Juniper - I saw them smoking - but in turn we shot down 6 Japs". What the game calls combat report is that actual moment: 3 probable friendly losses, 6 probable enemy losses.

Then the flight commander comes back to base and finds out that Jimmy was shot down, but Johnny and Juniper managed to come back. So now he knows for certainty that he had 1 loss against 6 probable enemy losses. This is what he writes down and sends to his superiors -- but this is not anywhere in the game.

In no way the squadron commander would report to Gen Percival that he lost 3 aircrafts when he knows he only lost 1. That's impossible.


quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob
If the squadron commander wants to know what his real losses are, he will look at his unit and see how many planes, pilots he has at end of day..


Right, and the squadron commander has to remember how many aircrafts he had the day before. For us, that means writing down that somewhere, or reloading the last turn. That's quite a bit of manual work...

Cheers [:D]
fbs



witpqs -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 9:48:19 PM)

You are getting information within hours of the events. It takes hours for that information to move. So, you ARE getting the 'actual moment' type reports. When you want better info, look at the actual units to see how banged up they or at the actual ships to see the damage. That's the equivalent of later reports.

The alternative is that more complete and accurate reports for a given game-day could be delayed by two or three game-days. Then you would have to issue your orders for January 3rd without useful reports of what happened on January 2nd.

What we have is FOW reports right away, without getting fuller, more accurate reports two or three days later.



tbridges -> RE: Accuracy of Combat Reports (FOW?) (9/4/2009 9:54:58 PM)

I understand that the specific details on the Intelligence report are disguised in the name of FOW. Thats fine, but does that also apply to the current score? So its possible to be losing the game when you think you're winning? Or is the score accurate even though the details are not?



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