What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (Full Version)

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hakon -> What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/11/2009 5:17:21 PM)

By allowing all that pre-order the game to download the betas that come out, it should be possible to start bringing in some cash (that I suspect would be quite welcome), while avoiding bad reviews by critics (they can't call it a review until it's done). There should be a separate subforum for the beta testers to post bugs that are found, even if the current beta testers' feedback should be given priority.

By being honest, and calling an unfinished product a beta, people that don't want to spend time and money on a product until it's running smoothly and mostly bug-free, can delay purchasing it, and while the biggest fans can probably still find a lot of enjoyment in the game, especially if multiplayer is working, even if the AI isn't. (I imagine that the AI will be very hard to fine tune so that it at least can beat a novice player).

Another advantage of making the game more available, would be to prompt some magazines or web pages to post previews, where the previewer is more likely to focus on the potential of the game, than on the number bugs, which will help marketing it.

For the free marketing to still be "hot" when the product is finished, there should preferrably not be much more than 3-6 months from the release of the public beta to the actual game release. And it would be best if either multiplayer or the AI is on such a level that it is possible to play the game, even if there are still bugs and weaknesses.

Stardock has been doing it like this for a while, and it looks like it's working quite well. It should, amongst other things, make it economically practical to wait some extra months before officially labeling the game "production" release, which should hold the Vultue Reviewers off until the game is good enough to get a 10/10.

Cheers
Hakon





micheljq -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/11/2009 6:57:27 PM)

Hi Hakon, the same who is the specialist of the Super Balbo?

I am surprised to hear that Stardock is doing this, about what Stardock's product you are reffering to?




Arctic Blast -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/11/2009 8:58:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: micheljq

Hi Hakon, the same who is the specialist of the Super Balbo?

I am surprised to hear that Stardock is doing this, about what Stardock's product you are reffering to?


Stardock has always done things this way, actually. Their new product he's referring to is Elemental.




PDiFolco -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/11/2009 9:39:17 PM)

Good idea, the game's release seems to *finally* approach, and an open beta would certainly allow to squash lots of issues.




Joseignacio -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/12/2009 4:13:40 PM)

I think it is a bad idea. As you say, the only ones to buy an unfinished product would be the a part of the hardcore fans of WIFFE. Counting myself as one of them, I will not buy the produt, but even for those who would, the good point of this systen is that it givea a little money a little time before (hopefully).

Having gone through a similar system with Ageod and Paradox, I can say that being a f*cking betatester for two years per game (hopefully less here) can sour the most hardened grognards and fans of the game.

True, this is voluntary, but dissapointment and tiredness would be all the same.

And besides, I think it would start a new precedent for the costume of selling (or preselling) unended games , which I consider close to a scam.




ypsylon -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/12/2009 6:15:23 PM)

There are '+'s and '-'s to this. While I agree about Stardock, let's face fact that WIF is not some sub-standard FPS sold in Millions of copies, or global hit from (example) EA. 95% of ordinary players will run away 10 seconds after starting the game*. You must be passionate guy/gal to enjoy stuff like this. Furthermore, pricing. Please understand that a lot of people (mostly outside USA) won't buy WIF because of the price - even if they like the general idea behind the game. There are various rumors around, and I don't want to dwell too much on this. But for example price of 75$ or 80$ for a very niche software it is far too much for most of casual gamers which are constantly feeded with more and software from big retailers for fraction of this value. They will simply ignore WIF because of the price (or they will obtain pirated version from somewhere).

* - I know this from my own experience. Whenever someone see me playing Victoria: Empire Under the Sun they say that I'm completely bonkers to play this thing. And WIF would be probably even more atrocious to play from ordinary player point of view.

Conclusion: While Open beta could help to speed up WIF release, I don't believe that it will increase sale of the game in the end. Like I said, WIF is not exactly e.g. 5816th re-release of Quake which even worst FPS player worldwide (me) can learn to play after 60 seconds. I will wait patiently. Waited for 10+ years, 6 months more won't make a difference to me. [:D]




Arctic Blast -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/12/2009 8:54:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

I think it is a bad idea. As you say, the only ones to buy an unfinished product would be the a part of the hardcore fans of WIFFE. Counting myself as one of them, I will not buy the produt, but even for those who would, the good point of this systen is that it givea a little money a little time before (hopefully).

Having gone through a similar system with Ageod and Paradox, I can say that being a f*cking betatester for two years per game (hopefully less here) can sour the most hardened grognards and fans of the game.

True, this is voluntary, but dissapointment and tiredness would be all the same.

And besides, I think it would start a new precedent for the costume of selling (or preselling) unended games , which I consider close to a scam.


The key is, do what Stardock do and be up front about it. If you decide to pre-order one of their games, you get the chance to take part in the Betas. They make it VERY clear every step of the way that you are not going to be playing a finished version of the game, and that (especially early on) it won't be fun. I have yet to see anyone over there complain about this process, and it often gives them a beta crew of THOUSANDS of people to try the game, rather than the 20 at most companies typically seem to use. That lets them find more bugs on different system configurations all that much faster.




wworld7 -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/12/2009 9:03:06 PM)

This idea has been discussed many times in the past.

What will be, will be.




HansHafen -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/13/2009 8:23:11 AM)

Not by these guys apparently. Nor me. So I likey to hear.

What won't listen, won't hear.




morgil -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/13/2009 10:21:15 AM)

In Norway, where I live, most new games cost around $75. And most people here wouldnt lift an eyebrow until it passed $95.





brian brian -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/16/2009 6:17:43 PM)

as soon as they'll let me I'll be giving up $200 for a newly printed set of counters I don't actually need.




composer99 -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/16/2009 7:38:29 PM)

The MWiF game could cost anywhere from $75-$100 and still be much, much less than the board game.

Speaking of new ways to part World in Flames players and their money, we may be looking forward to khaki Commonwealth counters in the near future. Andrew Rader printed a few sets to try out at WiFCon and they were a hit. I think this was already brought up in the WiFCon '09 thread.




brian brian -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/16/2009 9:21:09 PM)

that's the counters I'm talking about. I hope they reprint the whole set of sheets, so aside from the new CW, all of the tinting on all of the Major Powers will match across all of the kits. it will be really and truly a drag to clip all those corners though. it was much easier to start with the Classic set and then clip new kits as I purchased them. My 1939 and 1940 German pieces look like they need to be sent back from the front for a total refit now though.




CSSS -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/17/2009 5:23:57 AM)

I spent over $600.00 getting all my editions laminated, all my counters plastic sprayed, and about 20 dollars on tacky to put on the counters. just to spent two weeks on vacation with 3 other buddies to play 18 hours a day.




Froonp -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/17/2009 8:31:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99
Speaking of new ways to part World in Flames players and their money, we may be looking forward to khaki Commonwealth counters in the near future. Andrew Rader printed a few sets to try out at WiFCon and they were a hit. I think this was already brought up in the WiFCon '09 thread.

Isn't there some photography or some scan of thoss counters he made up, so that we can see what it look like ?




hakon -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/17/2009 1:01:54 PM)

@michel : yes, I'm the same Hakon as in the Yahoo forums. I do lurk in this forum too, and post when I have anything relevant to add. In fact, I think it was on this forum that the term Super Balbo was coined the first time, several years back.

On topic: Like most of the posters here, I really want this game to succeed. But I think that a big danger with this kind of game, with such large scope and such limited budget, is that it will be rushed to the market before it's really ready, to make som short term profits. (Like Paradox recently did with Hearts of Iron 3). I work in a software company myself, and I'm afraid that it's just now that the development is entering it's most critical stage, the stage where first class game companies such as Blizzard put in that extra effort to make the product truely polished before releasing it, while other companies, like Paradox, tend to start rushing an unfinished product to the market, resulting in the permanent loss of customers.

Steve is bound to start feeling the fatigue now, more than ever before. While developing new functionality at the very least is pretty fun, the QA phase is a lot tougher on the motivation, especially for comples programs like this, where everything is affected by everything, pretty much. Now, even if Steve can control the number of unintended consequences of most bugfixes performed, it is really quite hard to avoid unintended results entirely. And few things are more frustrating than having ot fix bugs in your bugfixes.....

And on top of this, there is the AIO, for which Steve's ambition level seems to have been pretty high. Now, i will be extremely impressed if he can finish even a decent AI in only a few months. Most likely, I would guess that the AI needs at least about half a year of game testing and tuning before it's even remotely challenging to the average player. Of course, this means that a "finished product" would likely be a year or more in the future

On the other hand, I think that it's possible that we are now approaching the point where some players can find some amount of fun in the game, or at the very least will be willing to pay in advance to get a sneek peek at the game. I know that I will. The only game that I've preordered in this fashion from Stardock, is GalCiv2- Dark Avatar, but I did assume that this wa s a general policy. Hopefully, revenue from presales could keep Steve's motivation for and ability to actually finish the product. Many of the players are grown ups for who it really isn't an issue to pay $100 - $200 up front even if the game is not quite finished yet.

Cheers
Hakon





composer99 -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/17/2009 3:10:35 PM)

Good question, Patrice. Our table used the counters & if I hadn't left my camera on the plane on the way to Lansing I would have had pictures to post to show them off. [sm=Christo_pull_hair.gif]

I will ask Andrew about that. Maybe he can take some shots of the counter sheet, or his table had some 'action shots' that they could use.




Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/17/2009 6:43:14 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: hakon

@michel : yes, I'm the same Hakon as in the Yahoo forums. I do lurk in this forum too, and post when I have anything relevant to add. In fact, I think it was on this forum that the term Super Balbo was coined the first time, several years back.

On topic: Like most of the posters here, I really want this game to succeed. But I think that a big danger with this kind of game, with such large scope and such limited budget, is that it will be rushed to the market before it's really ready, to make som short term profits. (Like Paradox recently did with Hearts of Iron 3). I work in a software company myself, and I'm afraid that it's just now that the development is entering it's most critical stage, the stage where first class game companies such as Blizzard put in that extra effort to make the product truely polished before releasing it, while other companies, like Paradox, tend to start rushing an unfinished product to the market, resulting in the permanent loss of customers.

Steve is bound to start feeling the fatigue now, more than ever before. While developing new functionality at the very least is pretty fun, the QA phase is a lot tougher on the motivation, especially for comples programs like this, where everything is affected by everything, pretty much. Now, even if Steve can control the number of unintended consequences of most bugfixes performed, it is really quite hard to avoid unintended results entirely. And few things are more frustrating than having ot fix bugs in your bugfixes.....

And on top of this, there is the AIO, for which Steve's ambition level seems to have been pretty high. Now, i will be extremely impressed if he can finish even a decent AI in only a few months. Most likely, I would guess that the AI needs at least about half a year of game testing and tuning before it's even remotely challenging to the average player. Of course, this means that a "finished product" would likely be a year or more in the future

On the other hand, I think that it's possible that we are now approaching the point where some players can find some amount of fun in the game, or at the very least will be willing to pay in advance to get a sneek peek at the game. I know that I will. The only game that I've preordered in this fashion from Stardock, is GalCiv2- Dark Avatar, but I did assume that this wa s a general policy. Hopefully, revenue from presales could keep Steve's motivation for and ability to actually finish the product. Many of the players are grown ups for who it really isn't an issue to pay $100 - $200 up front even if the game is not quite finished yet.

Cheers
Hakon



Straight debugging is difficult. I do do that some days, and even for several days in a row, but I have taken to inserting 'breaks' where I work on the Players Manual, Training Videos, context sensitive Help messages, and the like. Then there are the omnipresent tasks of staying organized: task lists, spreadsheets, status reports, desktop tidyness (real and virtual), program listings. But debugging has been my main focus for the last 6 weeks. As long as things get fixed and/or work better, the positive feedback creates a positive feedback loop. When the compiler goes off into space, the hardwares glitches, and/or the operating system goes kerflooie, ..., well then it is important to prevent a negative feedback loop from spiralling into doom and gloom.
===
They have completed the first half of the new hospital next door (Shriners) and moved everyone out of the half of the old hospital that they had been working out of, and into the spanking new half. So the past few days they have been tearing down the remaining old structure, with 3 large backhoes crashing and banging, large trucks pulling up in a continuous line and being filled with steel beams, brioken concrete, and other rubble. From the 19th floor, I don't get that much noise, though the backing-up beeps can be annoying when they seem to be having some sort of bizzarre go around in a circle backwards race.

But meanwhile they are doing repair work on the condiminium I live in: 35 stories, 240 apartments, and 35 years old. What they have been doing is having crews hang off the side of the building looking for spalling (steel reinforced concrete cracks and flakes off due to the high level of salt water in the air). The fix for this is to drill into the concrete exposing the entire area and then patch it with new ~concrete. At times they have to cut the steel rebar using a high-pitched drill. Well, they have gotten around to my area of the building recently and yesterday they were drilling into the concrete a couple of floors above my apartment, which causes the entire building to shake.

Yesterday was also the quarterly window washing day, so those guys were hanging off the other side of my apartment banging on the windows with their suction pads while playing loud music.

At one point in the morning it was so noisy here I could barely hear the ambulance sirens as they went by in the street below.

If you have any image of working at home being like Thoreau on Waldon Pond, I must disabuse you of such a fantasy.




Skanvak -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/18/2009 6:51:04 AM)

quote:

Many of the players are grown ups for who it really isn't an issue to pay $100 - $200 up front even if the game is not quite finished yet.


Which means that many players have childrens and family to sustain, which meant that100$ is too much for a game. Unless you do discriminating selling. (that is Open beta 200 $ at start, then 100 $ at half the time and final product at 50$...and ten years later free :p )

As for the AI, I think it is a bit too much to ask, but better than a smart AI I'd like an AI that as the same psychology and plan as the real political leader of the time (ie Italy that want to conquer egypt and Greece alone, Hitler following his original barbarossa plan and no retreat policy after and so on...). That is not to have an easy victory but, to be able to really have a kind of replaying history feeling which I fear to lose with a game savvy AI (I don't advocate against, only to have both and that purely historical AI might be simple to code).




brian brian -> RE: What about an open beta, available to all that pre-order? (9/18/2009 3:37:44 PM)

If I could pick only two words to describe Matrix World in Flames they would probably be 'extra effort'.

As for generating some revenue, I would buy a beta version any time.

I would also buy immediately a paper copy of the map of China and Siberia. Say from Sakhalin to a little bit south of Hanoi and however much west from that line would fit on a piece of paper around the size of two of the current WiF maps. I thought it was rather unfortunate that the possibility of having some paper maps was sidetracked by the idea of printing the whole world, including copious quantities of useless blue paper that I certainly wouldn't buy. But I'd love to be using my cardboard counters on certain parts of the map if I could. Heck I'd pay up real money just for a download I could print myself even if I had to stitch together some pieces of cardstock on my end.




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