Submarine Warfare (Full Version)

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Magister Militum -> Submarine Warfare (9/17/2009 10:17:25 AM)

I have a couple of questions about Submarine warfare. Playing as the allies in late Feb 1942 I have listed as sunk 17 Japanese SS. I am sure this is over stated and assume it is the Fog of War. I would guess I have sunk 6 or 7 SS in reality based on their activity levels (15-20 working out of Truk, and the same rotating around the WC. Does anyone know how bad the FOW is for sub sinkings. I know I could reload as the Japs but that just seems like cheating. It doesn't really how many are sunk (I guess the real point is that heavy use of aircraft and ASW groups can keep merchant losses way down) but part of me would like to know. Normal FOW is working but the submarine side seems extremely FOWed.

Also on the allied side all my submarines are working on patrol orders (aside from 3 sunk and several undergoing repair). Every now and then however I find one that has converted to computer control and is patroling somewhere very strange (west of Singapore is common despite no shipping being there). Is this a bug or is there a reason for the reset to computer control for patrol groups? The Dutch by the way are pure butchers, they even took out a CVL.

Finally Matrix are evil for making me stay up so late so often, I have no control, I must play more.

Cheers,

Richard



rockmedic109 -> RE: Submarine Warfare (9/17/2009 3:43:28 PM)

As a rule of thumb, two actual hits on an IJN sub where the "penetration" shows in the combat replay will doom the sub....if they are depth charges.  Mousetrap and Hedgehg probably need a few more. Also if you watch the replay or read the combat report it will sometimes say the sub was forced to the surface or lookouts report seeing debris.  This is probably a kill. 

Dunno about changing to computer control.  Never had that problem. 



HHI -> RE: Submarine Warfare (9/18/2009 4:46:43 PM)

I am surprised no one has commented on the effects of submarines from the update. Since the update, (Allies vs. Japanese AI) I have seen no successful attack on a sub, mine or theirs in about three months game time. On the other hand, I have seen no successful attack on an escorted TF, mine or theirs. The result is that I am forced to escort everything. OK, fine. I disagree, but I can live with it. However, it renders the automatic convoy systems too dangerous to use. I tried to go back to the original version, but my save wouldn't load.

While I'm here, there seems to be a problem with getting subchasers on the board. These ships are vital, given the sub situation created by the update. However, they run out of fuel in the pipeline. The task force screen is different in the pipeline from offboard and does not permit refueling from accompanying ships. This should be fixed.




rockmedic109 -> RE: Submarine Warfare (9/18/2009 5:07:18 PM)

I haven't seen any changes in sub warfare with the update.  Are you playing on Hard or Very Hard?  They {at least Very Hard} will give combat bonus' might cause this.



Methuen -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/7/2009 5:39:39 PM)

I've also noticed this. Before the .84e update my Jap destroyers with good captains were making good progress against US subs around Manila, but since the update - not one successful ASW attack. Also noticed a marked drop off in successful sub attacks???



PaxMondo -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/8/2009 2:38:29 AM)

No, I am in the GUA scenario and I've been able to get kills ... takes a lot of coordination though AIR+SEA.



Schatten -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/8/2009 4:07:56 PM)

fewer attacks and mostly misses (as ally 04/42) after patch, for sure.
but it looks more historical, it was all time hard to hit a submarine with direct hit in WW2

The only thing i not sure are ASW Patrols...1 Ship and 4 TF´s or 4 Ships in 1 TF....especially since after patch only 1 shipdetect and attacks the submarine, from the other 3 you see nothing (bevore patch the other ships have attacked too, i think they have build in a bug here).



Shark7 -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/8/2009 5:31:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

As a rule of thumb, two actual hits on an IJN sub where the "penetration" shows in the combat replay will doom the sub....if they are depth charges.  Mousetrap and Hedgehg probably need a few more. Also if you watch the replay or read the combat report it will sometimes say the sub was forced to the surface or lookouts report seeing debris.  This is probably a kill. 

Dunno about changing to computer control.  Never had that problem. 


I've had a few of the really big boats (read: Glen Carrier) survive 2 direct hits, but not many. Most of the time 2 direct hits is a guaranteed sinking.



Venividivici10044 -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/26/2009 4:50:36 PM)

I've only explored the Coral Sea scenario so far; using it as a tutorial to learn the basics. I've had zero success with American subs; but the Japanese wreaked havoc sinking Lexington, and 2 Heavy Cruisers. American escorts have prosecuted several contacts with mixed success.



rockmedic109 -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/26/2009 9:33:23 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Schatten

fewer attacks and mostly misses (as ally 04/42) after patch, for sure.
but it looks more historical, it was all time hard to hit a submarine with direct hit in WW2

The only thing i not sure are ASW Patrols...1 Ship and 4 TF´s or 4 Ships in 1 TF....especially since after patch only 1 shipdetect and attacks the submarine, from the other 3 you see nothing (bevore patch the other ships have attacked too, i think they have build in a bug here).

Put four ships in one task force. If a sub attacks, the other three will probably get to counter attack.



GB68 -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/27/2009 2:34:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

As a rule of thumb, two actual hits on an IJN sub where the "penetration" shows in the combat replay will doom the sub....if they are depth charges.  Mousetrap and Hedgehg probably need a few more. Also if you watch the replay or read the combat report it will sometimes say the sub was forced to the surface or lookouts report seeing debris.  This is probably a kill. 

Dunno about changing to computer control.  Never had that problem. 


This certainly applied to WitP, but in AE, I have found that it generally takes many more "hits" to sink a sub. Even with "penetration" hits. I've had subs take up to 15 or 16 "hits" with several (4 or 5) penetration hits and survive most of the time. (Albeit only just).

In my current PBEM, I had one sub take 8 hits with (according to Combat replay) 3 penetration hits (i.e.-taking on water) and come out with damage of 21sys/26flt/2eng. Reasonable damage, yes. But not career ending. I've found this is very much the standard type of result.
To sink a sub with ASW in AE is quite difficult. Perhaps, in my opinion, just a little too difficult!

In WitP, it usually seemed to only take 2 or 3 "hits" to sink a sub. But it seems the definition of a "hit" has been altered in AE.



herwin -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/27/2009 11:13:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GB68

quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

As a rule of thumb, two actual hits on an IJN sub where the "penetration" shows in the combat replay will doom the sub....if they are depth charges.  Mousetrap and Hedgehg probably need a few more. Also if you watch the replay or read the combat report it will sometimes say the sub was forced to the surface or lookouts report seeing debris.  This is probably a kill. 

Dunno about changing to computer control.  Never had that problem. 


This certainly applied to WitP, but in AE, I have found that it generally takes many more "hits" to sink a sub. Even with "penetration" hits. I've had subs take up to 15 or 16 "hits" with several (4 or 5) penetration hits and survive most of the time. (Albeit only just).

In my current PBEM, I had one sub take 8 hits with (according to Combat replay) 3 penetration hits (i.e.-taking on water) and come out with damage of 21sys/26flt/2eng. Reasonable damage, yes. But not career ending. I've found this is very much the standard type of result.
To sink a sub with ASW in AE is quite difficult. Perhaps, in my opinion, just a little too difficult!

In WitP, it usually seemed to only take 2 or 3 "hits" to sink a sub. But it seems the definition of a "hit" has been altered in AE.


HISTORY

Submarines were too fragile in stock, but I believe this has been changed in AE. Note that serious sub damage has to be repaired in a shipyard.



Q-Ball -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/27/2009 4:27:55 PM)

Too early to tell IMO, but I have played 5 total months of PBEM play as both sides, and I haven't lost a sub to depth charge attack. (I've lost them to mines, bombs in port, and 1 sub-on-sub). As far as I can tell, I have sunk 1 enemy sub via depth charges.

I've had lots of subs damaged though.




Chickenboy -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/27/2009 7:39:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: GB68

quote:

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

As a rule of thumb, two actual hits on an IJN sub where the "penetration" shows in the combat replay will doom the sub....if they are depth charges.  Mousetrap and Hedgehg probably need a few more. Also if you watch the replay or read the combat report it will sometimes say the sub was forced to the surface or lookouts report seeing debris.  This is probably a kill. 

Dunno about changing to computer control.  Never had that problem. 


This certainly applied to WitP, but in AE, I have found that it generally takes many more "hits" to sink a sub. Even with "penetration" hits. I've had subs take up to 15 or 16 "hits" with several (4 or 5) penetration hits and survive most of the time. (Albeit only just).

In my current PBEM, I had one sub take 8 hits with (according to Combat replay) 3 penetration hits (i.e.-taking on water) and come out with damage of 21sys/26flt/2eng. Reasonable damage, yes. But not career ending. I've found this is very much the standard type of result.
To sink a sub with ASW in AE is quite difficult. Perhaps, in my opinion, just a little too difficult!

In WitP, it usually seemed to only take 2 or 3 "hits" to sink a sub. But it seems the definition of a "hit" has been altered in AE.

I think the 'penetration' hits are where it says, "DC hits SS-xx" then "hull penetration" or some such "severe damage". This is different than the garden variety 'taking on water' messages that one gets with a little bit of pressure hull leakage. An SS can take a dozen or more hits of the latter with only moderate damage, as you've identified. 2-3 of the former means a really bad day for the SS and its crew.



FOW -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/28/2009 2:35:42 PM)

The 'Taking on water' message conjours visions from the old films of, during a depth charge attack, the pipe in the control room bursting and a crewman frantically turns the stop-cock to halt the water [:D]

An AE sub can absorb many of these 'hits' or 'near misses' with minor damage.
Penetration / severe damage / flooding messages will put serious hurt on the sub.



PaxMondo -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/29/2009 5:11:33 AM)

I've got most of my sub kills with a/c.  Low level bombs.



GB68 -> RE: Submarine Warfare (10/29/2009 5:21:57 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I've got most of my sub kills with a/c.  Low level bombs.


What is your secret, because I don't think I've even recorded a single hit with an airplane on ASW.

Several attacks, but no hits. And lots of spotting, but that's about it so far! I usually have air units ASW searching and training (about 30% each) and an altitude of between 2000 and 4000 feet. Once the unit is trained up somewhat, (about ASW above 35 average) I switch them to solely ASW.

The Japanese, in particular, I don't really play the Allies often, have on average very low ASW skills. I'd say for a float plane or naval unit, the average is about 25-28 and for an Army bomber/light bomber unit, about 15-20 average. So, it takes a while for the skill to improve to an acceptable level.



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