RE: French Question (Full Version)

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Kereguelen -> RE: French Question (10/6/2009 6:45:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

I have BIM but it came from an English text.


I've seen/read both designations (BIM and BFM) for the same battalion even in French texts about the campaign in North Africa (Bir Hakeim etc.).

Don't know which term is correct here, because the term infanterie de marine applies to French navy units that were employed overseas (then as part of the Troupes Coloniales) while the term fusiliers marins applied to navy units that were employed in France proper.


Thanks for the link, Dili. This sheds some light on this. Two different battalions (BIM and BFM) at Bir Hakeim. Never realized this before because I did not know that the BIM was merged with the Pacific Battalion later.



Terminus -> RE: French Question (10/6/2009 6:55:43 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Skyland

All infanterie de marine troops were named colonial infantery, in France and overseas until the 60's i think. Their insignia was an anchor.


Where they controlled by the Army or the Navy?



Skyland -> RE: French Question (10/6/2009 7:03:57 PM)

By the army at that time.



Skyland -> RE: French Question (10/6/2009 7:15:03 PM)

If you are looking for Navy units, Fusiliers Marins free french units like BIM or BFM as mentionned above are a possibility.



Terminus -> RE: French Question (10/6/2009 7:55:08 PM)

This is very confusing...[&:] What's the difference between fusiliers marins and infanterie de marine?

As far as I can see, the latter would be naval infantry raised for colonial service, but this would only be applicable in peacetime, and since Metropolitan France is occupied by Germany, fusiliers marins could easily have ended up in Indochina. Perhaps as a demi-brigade d'infanterie de marine?

(In case nobody noticed, I like the concept of the demi-brigade...[:D])



Skyland -> RE: French Question (10/7/2009 2:20:18 PM)

From what i understand : fusiliers marins could only be small units (commandos like) because composed of navy personnel assigned to a ship (security, landing parties,...). During the ww2, as many ships were out of service (following Armistice, Toulon scuttling and so on), some larger units were raised with free french navy personnel available in UK and later from '44 with former Vichy navy personnel.



Dili -> RE: French Question (10/7/2009 5:45:25 PM)

Apparently Fusiliers Marins were the troops that remained under Navy Command at start of WWII - Base security etc. But after 1940 everything was up in air and without a big Navy like in 1939 Fusiliers operated under FFL more or less unified command. Infanterie de Marine were "transformed" into colonial units before WW2, some retained the Marine name like the BIMP - Bataillon d'Infanterie de Marine du Pacifique, and the BIM i refered above formed in War.

There was a Regiment Fusiliers Marins in Italian Campaign operating as Army troops.



Shark7 -> RE: French Question (10/7/2009 9:39:21 PM)

Terminus have you found any good websites with info on the disposition of Free French forces in 1941? I've found a few, but their OOB is hard to find accurate records on.



Terminus -> RE: French Question (10/7/2009 9:44:01 PM)

Hard, to say the least. The answer is mostly no, but then I'm in the fortunate position of making an alternate history mod, so I can more or less do what I find best.



Shark7 -> RE: French Question (10/7/2009 9:49:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus

Hard, to say the least. The answer is mostly no, but then I'm in the fortunate position of making an alternate history mod, so I can more or less do what I find best.


It is nice that way. And while I'm doing a fictional mod as well, I'm also trying to keep some of the OOB intact while adding to it. I still haven't decided if I'm going to have the French Colonies go Free French or explore the possibilities of them being loyal to the Vichy.



Terminus -> Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/7/2009 10:12:28 PM)

As you can see by my land OOB, I'm trying for the same...

Anyhoo, just so everything doesn't turn all French and Thai, I give you the Chikugo, the sop to the hurt feelings of the IJN gun-club after the aviators won the battle for pre-war resources. There will be four of these, as replacements for the over-age Kongos:

[image]local://upfiles/16369/CD79283919DF466CAD648CE08DE3DA2E.jpg[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/7/2009 10:39:04 PM)

Is Chikugo based on an actual Design? I don't remember her in any Circle Plans, maybe it was considered and dropped.

I also LIKE the Kongos. Not the greatest ships, but they certainly aged pretty well.



Terminus -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/7/2009 11:41:52 PM)

Not an actual design, no. The Kongos were due for replacement in the second half of the 1930s and new designs were made, but the Yamatos sucked up all the resources. In my mod, there are no Yamatos, so you get these instead (among other things).

As should be obvious, the art is a modification of AE's Yamato.



Terminus -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/7/2009 11:42:30 PM)

And make no mistake, I like the Kongos too. Just want to try something else.



Terminus -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/8/2009 12:15:02 AM)

An IJN ship class I've NEVER liked, however, is the Agano. I see this as a real missed opportunity for the Japs to design a good light cruiser to replace their older designs which were desperately overage in 1941.

The Agano was delayed for a long time by internal bickering over the design, and when she finally joined the fleet, she was too small and too lightly armed for her job.

In my mod, the Agano design is a much bigger cruiser, much more heavily armed and survivable. The name ship is in service on the outbreak of war, and there will be five others (Yahagi, Sakawa, Noshiro, Oyodo and Yubari). The last two will not appear in their historical guises (I know, a horrible loss...[:D]).

[image]local://upfiles/16369/4D9266F1C0224FC2AA014E0C97306558.jpg[/image]



Q-Ball -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/8/2009 6:26:15 PM)

Goody! Since we're playing IJN Naval Budget Fantasy Island, why don't we relegate a few more wasted projects to the scrap heap and replace with some real ships:

All the Cruiser-Minelayers
The CS units
The Katoris. YIKES!
The entire Midget sub program

That's alot of wasted metal, surely there are a couple more cruisers or CVs in there?



Dili -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/8/2009 7:40:21 PM)

Katoris were a waste?



Terminus -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/8/2009 9:06:11 PM)

As training vessels, probably not. It's just doubtful whether Japan could afford to spend the money on ships of such limited operational capability.



bklooste -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 2:43:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Katoris were a waste?


Absolutely .. They had all those Armored Cruisers they could have used or even the refloated Chinese prices.

In terms of money instead of the 4 Yamatos they could have got 34 Takaos or in terms of steel 16 Soryus (and had armour plate to spare) ( assuming 30% spent on the #4) mmm good choice boys ...And that doesn't include the special 18" turret carrier , 18" ammunition development and manufacture etc.



Shark7 -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 3:11:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dili

Katoris were a waste?


Absolutely .. They had all those Armored Cruisers they could have used or even the refloated Chinese prices.

In terms of money instead of the 4 Yamatos they could have got 34 Takaos or in terms of steel 16 Soryus (and had armour plate to spare) ( assuming 30% spent on the #4) mmm good choice boys ...And that doesn't include the special 18" turret carrier , 18" ammunition development and manufacture etc.


You have a point there. But in truth all those relics were used as training craft and they still built the Katori's. So perhaps they needed even more training capacity than the relics could provide?



Shark7 -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 3:13:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Goody! Since we're playing IJN Naval Budget Fantasy Island, why don't we relegate a few more wasted projects to the scrap heap and replace with some real ships:

All the Cruiser-Minelayers
The CS units
The Katoris. YIKES!
The entire Midget sub program

That's alot of wasted metal, surely there are a couple more cruisers or CVs in there?


IJN Naval Budget Fantasy Island...lol.

The mod I'm working on is that on steriods...only the US, Britian and DEI get it as well. [X(]

Guess it may be time to start a mod thread of my own and quit trying to hijack Terminus's thread. [:D]



Q-Ball -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 5:44:01 PM)

It's fun to speculate what Japan could do with certain tonnage, etc. etc. Not building the Yamatos doesn't necessarily mean 140,000 tons of new CVs could have been built instead.

CVs were extremely expensive ships once you figured in the airgroups, and all the complex ships systems (aviation fuel, magazines, aircraft parts and shops, etc). In fact, I wonder if the Shokakus unit for unit were more than the Yamato, if you include the airgroups.

I guess in defense of the Katoris, the IJN had a serious shortage of Officers, because they belatedly realized they were going to need more to man all the ships they were building. Like everything else the IJN did, it had a cadre of really elite naval officers, but no effective reserve program, and too selective training program. I suppose the Katoris were part of an effort to address that.



Terminus -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 6:19:07 PM)

Aside from the fact that once the war started, the ships spent their time as submarine squadron flagships.[sm=crazy.gif]



Terminus -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 6:22:41 PM)

As for "Fantasy Island", I'm playing with the thought of eventually making two versions of my mod, one kinda low-key and *almost* realistic, and one completely nutzo over-the-top. Thread, I love that editor.



Dili -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 7:01:21 PM)

quote:

As training vessels, probably not. It's just doubtful whether Japan could afford to spend the money on ships of such limited operational capability.


That is the question. With Katoris they could train many without wasting lots of fuel. It made their training much more economical and much more efficient. I don't know how much they cost but i suspect it wasn't more than twice a destroyer.

quote:

Aside from the fact that once the war started, the ships spent their time as submarine squadron flagships.


Well it was war and they were scrapping the barrel.

------------------------
What you will do about Japanese fad for Floatplanes and all CS's , AV's etc...



Terminus -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 7:33:11 PM)

Well, there's no submarine-launched floatplanes in my mod, but the others... The concept itself wasn't that flawed, especially in a pre-war context, so I probably won't change much about it.



JWE -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 8:14:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
As training vessels, probably not. It's just doubtful whether Japan could afford to spend the money on ships of such limited operational capability.

Sorry I'm late to the ball. Oh, well.

I thought the Katoris were developmental ships, that incorporated a bunch of tweaks and twonks that went into the designs of the Mogamis and onwards. Yeah, they sucked, and once they were around, making them training cruisers wasn't a bad idea, but I think their design and construction had a certain degree of utility for follow-on designs, that might not be represented in their operational specifications.

Basically, I would keep them. Japan didn't have a good basis for CA designs, so they needed to do something. The Katori was a good interim test platform. So what do ya do with your test platforms? Maybe make them training cruisers and use them operationally, if necessary? Yeah, I would keep them.

Ciao. John



Terminus -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 8:23:14 PM)

The developmental ship you're thinking of was the Yubari, commissioned in 1923. The Katoris were constructed and commissioned from 1938 to 1941.



JWE -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 9:06:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
The developmental ship you're thinking of was the Yubari, commissioned in 1923. The Katoris were constructed and commissioned from 1938 to 1941.

Absolutely right. Had a bottle of St. Estephe and did a major brain fart. Please forgive.



Don Bowen -> RE: Japanese Tasty Goodness (10/9/2009 9:17:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE


quote:

ORIGINAL: Terminus
The developmental ship you're thinking of was the Yubari, commissioned in 1923. The Katoris were constructed and commissioned from 1938 to 1941.

Absolutely right. Had a bottle of St. Estephe and did a major brain fart. Please forgive.


Penalty: one bottle of St. Estephe.



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