The Winter War movie. (Full Version)

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Tortfeasor -> The Winter War movie. (11/5/2000 11:00:00 PM)

Hi ! I have found one site with a true story of the Finnish Winter war. It is a amaising story, and it`s amaising that the finnish soldiers puld it off. By reading this site you will get a good picture off the Finnish movie "Winter War", which is also based on true events and persons. It is a MUST READ for a pro war fan. It is disappointing that so few Westerners know about the history of Finland. Their battle against invasion and tyranny is inspiring and deserving of recounting. Examples of individual bravery during the Winter War are the things of which true heroes are made. In one accounting, 32 Finn soldiers held off 4000 Russian infantrymen. By the end of the failed communist attack, 400 Soviets lay dead and the rest in retreat. Only 4 Finns survived, but they held the line. You cannot help but be amazed by this kind of sacrifice and bravery. I found it by typing "the white death" in http://www.google.com THE WHITE DEATH: ... 16. Chew, Dr. Allen F.; The White Death; The Epic of the Soviet-Finnish Winter War, Michigan State University Press, 1971. ... home.interserv.com/~tazio/7dSuomu.htm ------------------ [This message has been edited by Tortfeasor (edited November 05, 2000).]



ARIS -> (11/6/2000 3:02:00 AM)

It looks like everyone cares only for his own country. The bravery of our boys inspire us, we forget the rest. Greece fought a 6 month victorious war against Italy, defended the forts at the borders with Bulgaria for 7 days against the panzers, fought at the battle of Crete (and all movies not even mention that half of the troops were Greek... our British and Newzealand boys.), and even a small force was fighting at north africa. Are you interested for more details? Ofcourse not... I don't care if there is an earthquake at the other side of the earth. My tooth hurts!



Drex -> (11/6/2000 8:01:00 AM)

One of the many reasons I come to these forums is to pick up on history that otherwise I would be ignorant of. My only acquaintance with the finno-russian War of 1939 ( is that the proper name?) is through the rather slim volume "A Frozen Hell" by William Trotter. He does convey the great heroism of the Finns but you leave the book wishing there were more. I also believe thereis a website www.winterwar.com that deals with that desperate conflict. However the war didnot end in 1939 but went on for some years. Of that portion I am completely ignorant.



Warrior -> (11/6/2000 8:36:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Drex: One of the many reasons I come to these forums is to pick up on history that otherwise I would be ignorant of. My only acquaintance with the finno-russian War of 1939 ( is that the proper name?) is through the rather slim volume "A Frozen Hell" by William Trotter. He does convey the great heroism of the Finns but you leave the book wishing there were more. I also believe thereis a website www.winterwar.com that deals with that desperate conflict. However the war didnot end in 1939 but went on for some years. Of that portion I am completely ignorant.
Speaking of generally unknown conflicts, I understand the largest tank battle in history took place in Russia during WWII. I've love to see a scenario with that!



Viriato -> (11/6/2000 10:40:00 AM)

Hello all , REMF you mean the battle of Kursk , and there are a couple of scenarios already , the latest is "Elimination" ...



mogami -> (11/6/2000 11:27:00 AM)

Hi I don't want to be Doctor Technical but Kursk was the largest tank battle of WWII not in history the battle between Israel and the Combined Arab armies was larger in number of tanks involved. A Eygptian Tank Army was forced to surrender which lead to Eygpt pulling out of the alliance against Israel. ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction!



Grumble -> (11/6/2000 9:28:00 PM)

FWIW, I've done some post-grad stuff on the Winter War and Continuation War. I think part of the reason you don't hear much about it, at least in US/UK is the political situation. One has a democratic nation (Finland was at least as democratic as most European nations at the time) at war with a brutal totalitarian regime whose avowed goal is the overthrow of democratic/free market nations. This type of thing raises uncomfortable questions on the home front. At least it did in my relatives who were around at that time...



Lars Remmen -> (11/6/2000 9:51:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by ARIS: It looks like everyone cares only for his own country. The bravery of our boys inspire us, we forget the rest. Greece fought a 6 month victorious war against Italy, defended the forts at the borders with Bulgaria for 7 days against the panzers, fought at the battle of Crete (and all movies not even mention that half of the troops were Greek... our British and Newzealand boys.), and even a small force was fighting at north africa. Are you interested for more details? Ofcourse not... I don't care if there is an earthquake at the other side of the earth. My tooth hurts!
I would rather that you would share your knowledge about Greece in WW2 than criticize others for their interest about their own countries. I for one would love to know more about the subject. So do share your knowledge. Also any good links and books (in English please as my Greek is...ahem...non existant) on the subject would be appreciated. ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide



Tortfeasor -> (11/7/2000 12:11:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by ARIS: It looks like everyone cares only for his own country. The bravery of our boys inspire us, we forget the rest. Greece fought a 6 month victorious war against Italy, defended the forts at the borders with Bulgaria for 7 days against the panzers, fought at the battle of Crete (and all movies not even mention that half of the troops were Greek... our British and Newzealand boys.), and even a small force was fighting at north africa. Are you interested for more details? Ofcourse not... I don't care if there is an earthquake at the other side of the earth. My tooth hurts!
Every War is on somebody`s backyard. As i said, It is a MUST READ for a profecional war fan. I am only shareing knowledge about Finnish Winter War. You should do the same, so tell us more about Battle of Crete and good internet sites off it.



ARIS -> (11/7/2000 2:50:00 AM)

To Lars & Tortfeasor: ===================== I was not critisizing anyone, just was telling how things are. I was not critisizing someone for the love for his country. I was saying that he shouldn't expect others to care about it. I don't expect people from Spain to care about the Greek-Italian war. I suggest to Tortfeasor not to care about what weasterners think about Finland. Finland, in her short history after the liberation from the Swedes (if I am correct) has achived many goals,and he should be proud of them. Despite the fact that you were on the looser side twice (WWII & Cold war). Now, about the Greek-Italian war, better read what the Italian generals had to say. About the Greek-German war, better read what Hitler said. I would be happy to tell you all those, but it has been some time since I read them, and I forgot them. Maybe if I try to find those history books... For the moment, you can check www.army.gr, under the historical notes, click "1940 epic". Tortfeasor, the text starts like this: "All Greeks feel an outstanding movement when they recall in their memory the epic facts of an heroic era: 1940." . All Greeks... and none else. Ofcourse the text is a bit Greek-oriented as expected. I love it!



Tortfeasor -> (11/7/2000 2:49:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by ARIS: To Lars & Tortfeasor: ===================== (You said) I suggest to Tortfeasor not to care about what weasterners think about Finland. (Of course i care) (You said) Finland, in her short history after the liberation from the Swedes (if I am correct) has achived many goals,and he should be proud of them. (You are correct there.) (You said) Despite the fact that you were on the looser side twice (WWII & Cold war). (you are wrong there) Finland 3 milion pop. Won the war(independens) against Russians 103 million pop. Stallin gave order to empty poppulation of finland because they didnt achieve objecktives in the Winter War. (You said) Finland lost the Cold war ???????????????? (You are wrong there). The cold war was between Warsova pakt and Nato not the Independent contrys.



Musti -> (11/7/2000 3:40:00 PM)

Excuse me ARIS. To say that Finland was on the "soviet side" after WWII is a little bit wrong. What the heck you greeks and turkish people look the same to me.



Weasel -> (11/7/2000 5:10:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by ARIS: Finland, in her short history after the liberation from the Swedes (if I am correct) has achived many goals,and he should be proud of them.
Sorry, Aris, I just have to correct your history a bit´. I hope there´s no offence taken. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Finns long way towards independence went like this: Finland was claimed by Sweden in 1216, because that area did not belong to anyone then (that darn Pope let them do it!). Well we were loyal allies and helped the Swedes in their endless wars, which were mainly fought against Russia. But in 1809, after another war against the Russian Imperium, Sweden had to cede us to Russia. Everything went pretty well for us under the Russian rule, we gained autonomy and had our own currency, stamps, army and so on even though we officially were part of Russia. But in 1894 Nikolay II became the czar of Russia and that's when the tough times began. But as most of you know (I hope... If not, time to read some more history) the October Revolution in 1917 ended this as the Bolshevists (communists) rose to power in Russia which now became the Soviet Union. Finns saw the chance to use the current chaos for the realization of their plan and declared Finland as independent country. Surprisingly, V.I. Lenin, the Russian communist leader, had nothing against that. So we actually gained our independence from Russia, not Sweden. ´Nuff said. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] [This message has been edited by Weasel (edited November 07, 2000).]



ARIS -> (11/7/2000 7:00:00 PM)

So,you were liberated from Russia or from Sweden after all? You confuse me. Tortfeasor said you liberated from Sweden,Weasel says you were liberated from Russia.I'll trust Weasel for the moment. Tortfeasor: I said that Finland was on the looser side twice, not that it lost the cold war, neither it lost WWII! Germany lost WWII (and Japan/Italy ofcourse), and Russia lost the cold war. But Finland was under Russia influence after WWII(like Greece was/is under US influence ... pity),and also was a German ally in WWII. (Is it loser or LoOser the right word?)



Fredde -> (11/7/2000 7:15:00 PM)

When Sweden lost Finland to Russia i wouldn't say Finland was liberated. More like "traded" from one bad ruler to another. The Swedes have done many bad things to Finland (long ago) and so have the Russians (not so long ago at all). I'd say that the Fins liberated themselves from Russia and defended their liberty with much courage in the next war. Sure, Finland formally "lost" the war against Russia.. but due to their very fierceful fighting they got themselves much much better negotiation conditions than they would have had otherwise. Being invaded by Russia, should they really refuse to take German help to defend their country? I'd say Finland was a neutral party of the cold "war", just like Sweden. I am fairly confident that the Finnish military during the cold war, just like the Swedish, always made their plans against bad guys coming from the east.. [This message has been edited by Fredde (edited November 07, 2000).]



stinkf -> (11/7/2000 8:05:00 PM)

Finland gained independence from Russia, not Sweden. Finnish military has been pretty right wing since beginning, and currently the only potential threat to Finland is Russia so it's pretty obvious to train to fight against them. Anyway, the White Death is well done text about the Winter War (as we call it) and it explains the backgrounds extremely well. Anyone interested in WWII should read it. I would be very interested to read about Greece's fight against Axis, I don't know much about that except that Italy didn't do well against Greece so then Germany had to help it's ally out of the hard place.



Kluckenbill -> (11/7/2000 9:09:00 PM)

ARIS wrote:
quote:

But Finland was under Russia influence after WWII(like Greece was/is under US influence ... pity),
Surely you jest. I'd love to know of a single instance where Greece helped the US in any way that was not in Greece's own interest. Mind you I'm not complaining, its understandable that a nation act in its self interest, I just resent it when we (the US) get blamed for actions that other countries take for their own self interest. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !



Lars Remmen -> (11/8/2000 12:58:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by ARIS: To Lars & Tortfeasor: ===================== I was not critisizing anyone, just was telling how things are. I was not critisizing someone for the love for his country. I was saying that he shouldn't expect others to care about it. I don't expect people from Spain to care about the Greek-Italian war. I suggest to Tortfeasor not to care about what weasterners think about Finland. Finland, in her short history after the liberation from the Swedes (if I am correct) has achived many goals,and he should be proud of them. Despite the fact that you were on the looser side twice (WWII & Cold war). Now, about the Greek-Italian war, better read what the Italian generals had to say. About the Greek-German war, better read what Hitler said. I would be happy to tell you all those, but it has been some time since I read them, and I forgot them. Maybe if I try to find those history books... For the moment, you can check www.army.gr, under the historical notes, click "1940 epic". Tortfeasor, the text starts like this: "All Greeks feel an outstanding movement when they recall in their memory the epic facts of an heroic era: 1940." . All Greeks... and none else. Ofcourse the text is a bit Greek-oriented as expected. I love it!
Aris I am getting a bit confused. Was your original post to be read as 'I don't care'? Also, I would naturally read what the Germans and Italians had to say about the engagements. But since there are two (at least) sides to any story I would also like to read the Greek version. That was why I asked you about sources. ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide



Tortfeasor -> (11/8/2000 1:24:00 AM)

So Grease won a fight against Italias mighty forses, it must have been a hell of a fight. [This message has been edited by Tortfeasor (edited November 07, 2000).] [This message has been edited by Tortfeasor (edited November 07, 2000).]



Tombstone -> (11/8/2000 1:31:00 AM)

I care about other countries and their military history. If a person enjoys military theory and history he doesn't really give a crap where the data comes from as long as it's reliable. Every armed conflict that has ever occurred is of some value to the military history enthusiast. I would say that I care more about what has happened in other countries than mine, since I know a fair amount of my country's history. Anyways, as far as Russian tank battle scenarios... I'm on the cusp of uploading a gigantic scenario that represents the last days of the Citadel offensive at the Kursk salient in 1943. There are other scenarios that deal with that operation. You need only look for them. As far as Israel's wars though I think that there were more tanks there than at Kursk, but as far as operations are concerned WWII takes the cake. Russia alone lost almost 3000 tanks in the defense of Moscow (way more at the outset of barbarossa but we dont have to count that), and like 3500 taking East Prussia. As far as battles I don't think that Isreal ever had huge numbers of tanks all in the same place. They did crazy things with way less force than was seen at Prokhorovka June 10-12 1943. (who knows though, I may be wrong) Tomo



ARIS -> (11/8/2000 2:39:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Kluckenbill: Surely you jest. I'd love to know of a single instance where Greece helped the US in any way that was not in Greece's own interest. Mind you I'm not complaining, its understandable that a nation act in its self interest, I just resent it when we (the US) get blamed for actions that other countries take for their own self interest.
It seems that we haven't been acting on ourselfs latelly. After the dissaster of the Greek army in 1922, 60km away from Ankara, the lesson was clear: do what we say,or you'll face death.Ofcourse it was the european powers that were helping Turkey at that time. US came up as a new fruit for Greece,after WWII. I didn't say that Greece helped US, US forced Greece to do things out of our interest,and for US interest ofcourse. After WWII there was a 3 years civil war: one side was the silly communist party, the other side was the silly western influeced (say US/Britain) Greek goverment. Ofcourse the goverment won cause, as we all know, after WWII the world had been dominated to US/european influence areas and Russian areas. Now tell me,what was Greece interest to fight a civil war after such a disasterous occupation of Axis forces at WWII? It was US who needed a steady ground at the Balkans, a backup of Turkey for Nato purposes. US needed to have control over the aegean sea. Should I now start talking about Cyprus? The good Nato aircraft carrier near middle east? Divide and conquer is the key here, if we divide it betwin Turkey and Greece, we have maximum benefits: both will try to please us. So,lets install a nice dictatorship at Greece (1967), fool around, remove it when we succeed our purposes,do the same to the Turks... Poor Turks,they had (and still have) tons of military equipement because it was THEIR interest to serve NATO... Too bad all that was turned against Greece, now that WP is no more. Isn't it strange that every time Greece and an other country (usually Turkey) have trouble, the good samaritan (US) pops up, and gives the nice solution? Hell, those Finn guys never give a damn about the Balkans, only US cares. They never invited Greece and Turkey to Helsinki,inhospitable people. Now that Cyprus is well divided, it is time for aegean to be divided. Divide and conquer, the undersea resources of aegean will be very usefull to the US. There were even talks after the Imia crisis, that those resources should be 33% Greek , 33% Turkish. I'm not a good mathematician, I though the sum was 66, but it is 100. Should I now start talking about the , oh well, "Macedonians" north of our borders? Your goverment guys I think is getting pissed off because we are turning towards the EU. I have the following suggestion to make: don't trust your media, if you want to be fair. They always present US as the peace maker, the good Samaritan. And your media will always obsess you with an enemy: first it was the bad-evil Ruskies (now presented as the half-silly helpfull people), then it was Iraq who threaten with armagedon the whole world,now it is the Chinese agressors who just want back what they had before (Taiwan). Notice that in science finction movies, some alliens (all that look like humans) have "Mongolian" like eyes, I mean you are obsesed against China- Japan. Just came to my mind, the bad race in Babylon5 was a race named something like "Balkans"? And they looked like Chinese?? Just relax guys, and visit Pekin once. Anyway, I think I'm out of topic right now. Lars Remmen: What I said was: "I don't care if there is an earthquake at the other side of the earth. My tooth hurts!" I said that to empasize the fact that we care much more about us, than about the others. The public doesn't care about Greek and Finnish heroisms. They care about private Ryan and public Bryan etc etc. I am messed too. Are we talking about Fin heroism, about Greek wars or about US influence anyway? And now a Greek joke: Those who believe that they know everything, irritate us because we do. And don't dare to forget: www.army.gr , obsolute equipement from the absolute friend.



ARIS -> (11/8/2000 2:51:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Tortfeasor: So Grease won a fight against Italias mighty forses, it must have been a hell of a fight.
It looks to me that the winter war happened at winter. Finland is far to the north, so it is a northen country. Thus it is too cold at a winter war. It also looks like some Fin guys can spit it out and far away from any "mouth" they have, thus making me thing that, when the 32 soldiers used all their bullets, they started farting towards the Russians, inflicting heavy casualities.



Tombstone -> (11/8/2000 6:09:00 AM)

Madness, this thread is getting a little convoluted. I don't know what the topic is really (especially that last post), but I think I remember seeing a really well done comprehensive winter war series of scenarios out on the net somewhere. I bet it could be retooled to the SPWAW engine to good effect. I think it was for sp3, but had a small amount of units. It could probably be put together in campaign too. The guy who did it put a text file in the zip that talked about his interest in russo-finnish war. Maybe someone should email him and tell him about SPWAW. Tomo



Lars Remmen -> (11/8/2000 12:31:00 PM)

ARIS, I understand what your intention was now :-) I don't agree 100% but I understand. Furthermore I agree that we have to get this thread back on track. Some name calling and 'below the belt' remarks have allready been posted and I think the majority here would not like to see that happen again. ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide



Heartland -> (11/8/2000 1:17:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by ARIS: Should I now start talking about Cyprus?
Er, you are blaming the US for the division of Cyprus? That's a pretty interesting point of view. Didn't the turks invade because of the way your military junta acted on the island?
quote:

Just came to my mind, the bad race in Babylon5 was a race named something like "Balkans"? And they looked like Chinese??
There is no "bad" race in Babylon 5 (not really, that's one of the main points of the series fer cryin out loud!), there is no race that looks Chinese, and there is no race named anything remotely like "Balkans". Nice try though. ------------------ "Anytime you lose a war, you just wait a few years, and you'll hear from everyone who thought that we could've won if they had done the fighting." - Sheridan, Babylon 5:"And Now For a Word"



ARIS -> (11/8/2000 7:05:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fredrik Rask: Er, you are blaming the US for the division of Cyprus? That's a pretty interesting point of view. Didn't the turks invade because of the way your military junta acted on the island? [QUOTE]Just came to my mind, the bad race in Babylon5 was a race named something like "Balkans"? And they looked like Chinese??
There is no "bad" race in Babylon 5 (not really, that's one of the main points of the series fer cryin out loud!), there is no race that looks Chinese, and there is no race named anything remotely like "Balkans". Nice try though. [/B][/QUOTE] So,who installed the junta on Greece anyway? As I was saying, it was US who installed them. About Babylon5 : it has been 2-3 years since it was playing here on Greek TV. I remember there was a "Balkans" or something like that race, because I was pissed of by it. To help you, I was watching the series before the "shadow" thinky wars. So, my reply to Kluckenbill had some facts. I'm sure that Kluckenbill doesn't know the story of Greece, so maybe he can't reply with convincing arguments. But you US people should already know that your goverment isn't just "helping" around... US didn't start the Turkey-Greek conflict,since there was no US at 1000AD. But US now is pushing the strings towards US interests. Or maybe it was very humanitarian of you to bomb the Serbs. Cool, nice flames, but you know, you could feed all Africa with the money those bombs costs! That would be humanitarian.



BA Evans -> (11/9/2000 1:02:00 AM)

Centari had the big hair, sticking straight up. Narn looked like lizard men. Mimbari had a big bone plate on the back of their head. They always wore robes. Vorlons had powerful mind powers and they wore encounter suits The Shadows looked like big black bugs. Pak' Marah had smashed in noses and were grey/green in color. Those are all of the races that I can remember.



Kharan -> (11/9/2000 2:21:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by ARIS: About Babylon5 : it has been 2-3 years since it was playing here on Greek TV. I remember there was a "Balkans" or something like that race, because I was pissed of by it. To help you, I was watching the series before the "shadow" thinky wars.
I don't normally post on any threads like this, but that has to be the most hilarious thing I've read for quite a some time.



Kluckenbill -> (11/9/2000 2:23:00 AM)

Aris, My comments were more directed toward your "is" than "was". However, the US and UK certainly had good reasons to try to stop Soviet expansion in Europe after WW2. I claim little knowledge of the Greek civil war, but I am curious if you think it would have been better if the communists won and Greece could have spent the next 50 years with a government and economy like Romania or Bulgaria. I pretty much agree with your assessment of current US involvement in the Balkans. One of the many problems with US foreign policy is that we want to make everything "right" very quickly. Instead we usually just cover up the underlying problems for a short time, spend enormous amounts of the taxpayers' money and make everybody hate us. I believe the main reason we got involved in Yugoslavia in the first place was because our European "allies" were too cheap and disorganized to act on their own.



ARIS -> (11/9/2000 4:03:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Kluckenbill: Aris, My comments were more directed toward your "is" than "was". However, the US and UK certainly had good reasons to try to stop Soviet expansion in Europe after WW2. I claim little knowledge of the Greek civil war, but I am curious if you think it would have been better if the communists won and Greece could have spent the next 50 years with a government and economy like Romania or Bulgaria. I pretty much agree with your assessment of current US involvement in the Balkans. One of the many problems with US foreign policy is that we want to make everything "right" very quickly. Instead we usually just cover up the underlying problems for a short time, spend enormous amounts of the taxpayers' money and make everybody hate us. I believe the main reason we got involved in Yugoslavia in the first place was because our European "allies" were too cheap and disorganized to act on their own.
It is a fact that Greece would be much better without US - Communists - Nazi. (Finns too,by the way would be much better, especially without the Cummunists...). Now you place a question to me: which patron to choose. I choose none ofcourse. The Yugoslavian war seems to me much like the move about a fake "Albanian" war, what was the name? About US policy and making things "right", I agree. """""Right"""""" is the right word. About the Babylon5 thing: I think I made a mistake, probably there is no "Balkan" race over there, it must have been in an other serial, or movie. So cease fire, cease fire.



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