Any tips for the Intercepting side? (Full Version)

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sprior -> Any tips for the Intercepting side? (9/30/2009 1:36:39 PM)

I'm about to embark on my first ever BTR CG as the Axis side. Whilst I understand the mechanics of it the strategy and tactics are a little opaque. Any hints?



DBS -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (9/30/2009 2:24:32 PM)

In the early stages of a 43 campaign, you can do worse than follow real-life German practice and be wary of being drawn into big fights with 8AF escorts over France and the Low Countries. If your opponent or the AI is silly enough to go deep, leaving the P-47s and Spitfires behind, then hit him. If it looks like he is just trying to turn Amsterdam red, you might want to leave him alone unless you feel confident you can muster a minimum of 6-9 gruppen - and even then chances are you will at best be trading losses in fighters fairly evenly.

Don't use zerstorer within his escort envelope if you can help it - they will get monstered. Eventually you will have to play vs P-51s, but sending Me410s vs P-47s or Spits over Lille in September 1943 is, IMHO, daft.

Try to use your aircraft at their best alt - send the 109 G5s from the Hohen staffels after the top layer of the escorts. Remember that a raid can take time to develop its full shape after it first shows up on radar. A raid departing East Anglia at 1000 will often show up on radar immediately - say 600 aircraft reported at 1001 or 1002, at say 120-180 mph and an altitude of 20k. This would be a full strength B-17 raid plus some close escorts. From 1001 to 1003, say, other raids will start showing up around it, tending to be reported higher or slightly lower. Unless the opponent is being very sophisticated, these will be the high escorts. Remember that early radar is not very good at heightfinding, and tends to under-estimate. That raid at 20 or 22k feet may really be at 28k... So don't rush to intercept when the first raid gets plotted - wait a couple of minutes to see how the high escorts are shaping up and task vs them.

When Bomber Command comes visiting, look carefully at the speeds reported by your radar in the List Raids screen. As I say, they will usually under-report altitude, but be better on speed. If you see raids showing up in the 280-360 speed bracket, chances are these are Mossies or nightfighters. Don't waste your time sending 110s, 88s or 217s after these - they will struggle to catch them. If you really do want to chase them, then you really need to use Stab/NJG1 with its He-219s, or one of the Wilde Sau single-engined units.

David



sprior -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (9/30/2009 2:45:57 PM)

Thanks David. I didn't realise about the alt being under-reported.



DBS -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (9/30/2009 4:10:08 PM)

To be more precise - the altitude may be over or under, although I personally tend to find, when playing test head-to-head games vs myself, a tendency to under report. Bottom line is - usually wrong, whatever!

Going high, as a defender, has its risks, especially vs small raids - you may miss them if more than a few thousand feet above; as happened in real life in the BoB, when Keith Park had to remind everyone in the command chain to patrol/intercept at the height ordered by Group, rather than keep adding a couple of thousand feet on to reduce the risk of being bounced. That said, pretty unlikely that you will miss a major 8AF raid with escorts stacked above...


David



davidjruss -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (9/30/2009 8:34:26 PM)

DBS,,


Just been reading some posts I have saved on a disk by yourself,Hard Sarge,Harley etc on the pre Matrix BTR forum with posts dated March 2002. One particular thread which you contributed to is entitled "The Ultimate Allied Tactics 1943"

DavidR

Oops - posted this in the wrong thread - meant to put it in the Allied thread.



Dolby -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (10/9/2009 8:00:19 PM)

Hi.
one thing from the previous BoTR is to use the stabs flights to take out stragglers on the way home. Keep the flights on the ground until your gruppen have damaged bombers which will attempt to get home. Then send up your boys to rack up a score. if you keep knocking these cripples down it will really help. upgrade(?) the stabs to 110 or 410 and you can launch early and shadow the formation and attack cripples straight away.

Mark.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (10/9/2009 9:04:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: DavidR

DBS,,


Just been reading some posts I have saved on a disk by yourself,Hard Sarge,Harley etc on the pre Matrix BTR forum with posts dated March 2002. One particular thread which you contributed to is entitled "The Ultimate Allied Tactics 1943"

DavidR

Oops - posted this in the wrong thread - meant to put it in the Allied thread.


there was a lot of good info on that forum, a shame the stuff that was lost

you don't happen to have Shaggy's list of pilots ?????




SireChaos -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (10/9/2009 10:05:38 PM)

Against 8th AF, it helps to send single-engined fighters to attack the escorts; this will send them home early and leave the bombers at the mercy of your heavier units. Also try to intercept the fighters coming to meet the bombers for the way home, to prolong the time the bombers spend without escorts.

For all Zerstörer units, always add extra cannons and then rockets - you need firepower.

FW-190F are pretty decent against heavy bombers, and more survivable due to their heavy armor; with rockets added, they can supplement the Zerstörer units, or substitute for them where they aren´t (France and Italy). They are also first-rate interceptors against medium bombers.


What I haven´t figured out yet is whether trying to shoot down recons is worth the effort.



Golden Bear -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (10/10/2009 1:36:05 AM)

[:)]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (10/10/2009 3:31:32 AM)

the thing with Recon is, it helps the bombers, they got a better chance of finding and hitting the target is the recon data is fresh

stopping the recon, hurts the bombers, but

DBS, and if I remember correctly, most of the squadron commanders told him to pound salt, most times, they went to the correct alt, and were under the bombers, and then had to do a steep climbing attack, which put in a bad spot vs the bombers and then to the fighters above them

along the same lines though, the high command wanted Downing to complain to his pilots that the orders were for Spitfires to attack fighters and Canes to attack the bombers, why were the Spits making bomber claims and why were the Canes making fighter claims

best thing about the F, is it carries double rocket loads, it don't have the same firepower that the A's have, but...







kitridge -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (10/18/2009 4:36:11 AM)

Here's a question for the pros:

How do you vector in your intercepts?  I've used the 'intercept raid' button predominately over my BTR/BOB career to vector in patrols or scramble squadrons against specific raid groups.  A lot of the time I find that these interceptors are at a disadvantage because the raid height is under-estimated by my radar operators; a fighter squadron listed  5,000ft below the bomber stream on my map is usually quite a bit higher above the bombers on a 'high escort' kind of mission.  I try and vector my 109's in against these fighters using the 'intercept raid' button but they end up getting the living snot bounced out of them because they've descended to the wrong altitude and are horribly disadvantaged against the escorts which are now high above (as if being in a 109 wasn't bad enough!).  Sometimes the 109's get lucky and they're able to climb up above the high cover unmolested and execute a bounce, but this usually means they waste all their fuel climbing back to altitude and are lucky to get in a single attack before they RTB

I've recently started putting patrols of 109's in the path of incoming raids at an altitude of 38,000 and waiting til they spot the raid passing beneath them and attack.  More often then not they pick out the high cover and actually get a few shots in before combusting and spiraling to the ground in flames.  Of course, there are problems with this: I can't specify what part of the raid group they attack nor can I be sure they are going to even see the raid.  It's also time consuming and frustrating to manage patrols in such a tedious manner.  I don't have any hard data to back this assertion up, but my gut feeling is that when I use the patrol method, I'm giving my 109's a greater chance of inflicting damage before they run out of fuel and get pounded into dust.   

Any thoughts?



KenchiSulla -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (10/18/2009 9:59:09 AM)

Kitridge, if you handle your patrols like that wouldnt the Bounce fighter/Bounce bomber/direct fighter/direct bomber doctrine kick in?

I have regular 109/190 on bounce fighter and the gun/rocket upgraded once on bounce bomber.



kitridge -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (10/18/2009 4:06:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Kitridge, if you handle your patrols like that wouldnt the Bounce fighter/Bounce bomber/direct fighter/direct bomber doctrine kick in?


Depends on who they see first. Sometimes the high escort is lagging behind and the 109's try their luck against the bombers which is not what I want in most cases.



kitridge -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (10/19/2009 6:57:36 PM)

I've experimented with my 109's on direct-fighter instead of bounce-fighter and I'm finding they're getting better results against P38s/P47s/Spits than they were before; they're actually getting kills! This also seems to have taken care of the 'intercept raid' wrong altitude problem as they don't spend 10 minutes trying to get into position only to run out of fuel and get bounced.

Always learning...



jomni -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (10/26/2009 12:09:36 AM)

How do you handle the defending side in general?

When to start sending partrols?
When to intercept?
What to intercept?
What squadron to use?
When to rest?

I'm so overwhelmed playing defenders and feel that it's a crazy RTS clickfest (pausable of course).




wernerpruckner -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (11/2/2009 8:22:44 PM)

jomni: BoB or BtR?

BoB:
- as soon as there is enough radio chatter (100+)
- whenever you want....un-attacked bomber raids seem to have a much higher chance to damage the attacked sites.....
- Hurricanes vs bomber, Spitfires vs fighters........
- every unit that has a chance to get there in time and has a high morale and is rested enough
- rest whenever it is possible!

BtR:
- I do not use much coastal patrols like in BoB, patrols are primarily for moving your forces to a better point of attack and concentrating your forces ( thats for me...others may use patrol like in BoB)
- to be or not to be..... [:'(][8D]
- everything you can kill with as low own losses as possible!
- whatever is handy
- rest whenever it is possible!



Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (11/13/2009 11:06:18 AM)

Hi all,

i'm experimenting some strategies on the Axis side (BTR 43 camp).
Here are few considerations (for what they could worth):

  1. 110G-2s are the best B-17 killers for daylight interception. Their best configuration seems to be with extra cannons. Those units that are using cannons and rockets togheder seems to be too slow and those using only rockets have a significant disadvantage considering that those weapons very seldom hit something (even if when they hit they do A LOT of damage). The JU88C (daylight interceptors) is a piece of crap. Too slow and it very seldom destroy anything...at the same time it gets kicked back with bloody nose more often than not.
  2. 109s, even with the Mk108, are defenetly suffering too many losses against heavy bombers. It's a waste to use them in this way and, with the extra cannon, it becomes an easier target for enemy fighters.
  3. Against medium 2-Es bombers probably the best is to use the 190A6 with extra cannon (mind you, not rockets). With the 190A5s covering their backs against the enemy escort they can be deadly against B26s,B25s and A20s (which are damned fast!!!).
  4. The 190Fs with rockets seem to do weel against enemy bomber formations...but they get slaughtered by the escort...so i use them only deep into the Reich in assistance of the ZG formations.
  5. The 410 remains a mistery for me. It should be better than the 110 but the results i'm experiencing say exactly the opposite...will need more tests.
  6. Bounce bombers works better than direct bombers for the 110s as far as i can tell...probably the 190A6 with extra cannon, if used against the faster medium bombers, should have the direct bombers doctrine...but i still do not know...however the whole "doctrine" thing remains something difficult to understand for me....



Tuk -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (11/13/2009 11:35:27 AM)

What I find in my limited experience intercepting large heavy bomber formations is that the first couple of passes the interceptors lose badly whatever armament they have. Get a kill or two and a good handfull damaged and things start to improve. Pods, rockets, NJs, pile them all in and bit by bit the formation will break up and burn. The implication here is that to get the best kill ratio, concentrate on a few raids you can really hammer rather than try to get the lot.

Use small groups of just about anything to pick off the stragglers, even regular fighters have a decent chance if there's any left from seeing off the escorts. 410A's aren't much cop in my experience but the B looks promising.




Gen.Hoepner -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (11/13/2009 3:23:30 PM)

The strategy i'm using...well i'm still learning a lot but...i was sayin' that the strategy i'm using is to wait for the big b-17s raids...usually they're well escorted by Mustangs and P-47s...i usually let them pass through the coastal line untouched...then i'll order the 109s and the 190A5s to intercept the escort (which by now should be more tired and have consumed lot of fuel)...normally my fighters get slaughtered in this process, cause the hordes of P-47s, Spits and Mustangs have an easy job on them struggling to get at the right altitude...this however leave the bombers almost without an escort...then i'll order my ZG groups to form a patrol 5k above the detected bombers altitude....the 190A6s (which are form my 2nd defendive line) are now ordered to take off and intercept the bomber formation...which is first hit by the FW and only then by the 110s/410s...
By the time when the raid is coming back (usually badly hit) the 109s take off again to patrol the coastal line where the second escort is arriving (usually spits) and engage them...the 190s take off again to intercept the bombers coming back which are still chased by the ZGs...

With this i'm killing hordes of heaviests...but my fighter backbone (109s and 190As) is suffering a lot of casualities....

Problem here is that the 17s are hitting hard my 190 factories, no matter what the cost they're paying for it...and my 190 production is struggling so much....
Another problem is that almost ignoring the "smaller" raids leads to the fact that HORDES of Typhoons, Spits, Hurris and 2engines bombers are destroying all my radar sites and airfields along the coastal line and till the borders of the Ruhr...which is pretty depressing!!!![:o]



artuitus_slith -> RE: Any tips for the Intercepting side? (1/25/2010 6:23:06 AM)

i have also recently started a germany game after getting frustrated with the weather in england during my allied game. one thing ive found is each turn takes alot longer as the axis, as long as 2 hours on my good days :) .

anyways, 5 days into the campain and i think im doing ok, losses are 2:1 in my favor with at least a third of my losses being Italian a/c. 348 b17 shot down in 5 days seems a bit extreme-but who am i too care? one thing that bothers me is that ive only turned back one bomber group one time despite the heavy losses. In fact i shot down 25 of 32 b17s from 99th bombing group over italy just to have them continue on and bomb the target-completely inaccurately to be sure but still i think they should have turned back long before reaching the target. Not that im complaining too much-i shot down the remaining 7 bombers on the return trip. which brought up a question-if a unit is completly destroyed in the air will does it exist anymore? I m sure they had a/c and crews in reserve but im also sure thier morale is pretty low after the beating they took :).

a couple of tips for the other new player-
1 like the guys say-let the 8th hammer targets in the low countries/france and wait to hit the enemy bombers on deep penetration daylight raids into germany-after playing a bit you will have a feel for when the escorts will have to turn back and just before they do start launching your interceptors.

2 since you're not worrying about enemy fighters at this point increase your cannons on most of your fighters. I try to keep my regular g-5 and g-6 units away from the big bomber formations until the return flight-after the formation has been hammered hard by the up cannon fighters. I do launch my g-6 units in groups of 4 behind the raid and pick of all the stragglers though-they do well against b17s in ones and twos.

3 since your not going to do much intercepting of enemy formations near england it makes since to pull back most of your units to a line roughly near the escort's fuel limits to limit your exposure on the ground-learned this the hard way.

4 rest your when possible-if there is no big 8af mission up there is really no reason to launch the bulk of your forces, they need the rest more than you need to kill a few boston IIIs or mitchel IIs or tiffies or whatever they launch-but if you see a mustang raid coming in it may be worthwhile to intercept it since they are almost gimme kills to your 109 g6 and 190a5 units.


one thing i have done is stop producing all the lesser planes- d520s, ms406s ect and all the italian types and had them all switch to producing fw 190 parts/engines planes- however i still get a certain number of 520s italian planes each day-whats going on? also i have tried using the inexperienced D520 pilots to intercept recon without any success-i have recently changed them to 109a-2s and hope to upgrade them to 109g-5s soon so hopefully they will start killing the recons a bit better-i figure shooting down recons who dont shoot back is the best form of training i can give them-as long as they dont stumble into the path of a real raid and get shredded:)

anyways sorry for the long post hope some of the info helps-one more thing- pull all your german units out of the 'toe' on the first turn and station them north of rome-the italian units are going to be lost soon anyways so its up to you to decide what to do with them-me i left them south of naples and honestly usually leave them on the ground unless i think an incoming raid is full of kittyhawks/p39s/p40Ls



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