JFB question - Marshall's defense (Full Version)

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Streptokok -> JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/1/2009 4:04:57 PM)

So how to put up a resistance here, or should I say is it worth trying?
Almost all places have max 6k troops, most of that is taken by default CD/Base Force.
In short, it looks almost undefendable to me. Im not saying I should be able to keep a division at each atoll, but there just isnt enough room for anything in these small islands.

Any tips?



[image]local://upfiles/32710/2AF69A8CBAE547BE84D58E569E64DC7B.jpg[/image]



Mike Solli -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/1/2009 4:31:51 PM)

Yup, the Beta testers talked about this a lot.  It's a delimma for both sides.



Shark7 -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/1/2009 4:59:35 PM)

It actually might be very worthwhile, since your opponent will also be limited. You stand a good chance to destroy some units if his invasions fail, plus you get shots at his transports with LBA in the area.



John Lansford -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/1/2009 5:22:28 PM)

The Japanese player does have a dilemma in the CentPac, but no more so than the Allies do.  You're right that the basing restrictions are so low that you cannot put a decent force on any base to defend it with.  However, if you build up only one or two bases so you can fly LBA out of them and defend those locations, the others become very difficult for the Allies to take and hold.

Notice I said "and hold".  They can come in and use their CV's to provide air cover during the landing, but then what?  The CV's eventually leave and your bombers flatten the place.  Unless they're willing to keep using their CV's to cover supply TF's, at some point you'll be able to retake the base after the supplies run low.

The CentPac is where the carrier TF's live and die.  You need them to defend the bases.  The Allies need them to take and hold the bases.  If both sides have CV's, neither side can accomplish their goals.  The Allies can take a base, but they can't hold it.  The Japanese can retake a base but they can't hold them either.

This is happening in my game now with Canton and Baker.  The AI invades them, I retake them later.  Then it shows up again with a (larger) landing force and takes it back.  If I build Canton up to operate LBA's I'm giving the AI a Betty base if they take it back.  At some point I'll sieze the initiative and take Tarawa, but right now the area is nothing more than a seesaw battle.



Q-Ball -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/1/2009 5:26:55 PM)

That is a very good question. A VERY good one. Defending the Empire in general is going to be very different in AE.

I am not set on any strategy, and I would love to hear opinions, but my initial take:

1. Develop the airbase at Kwaj to the max, leave the HQ there, and rely initially on Betty/Zeros to defend the atoll. The USN is unlikely to want to bring CVs within Betty range in the early going. That should be enough initally, regardless of what's on the ground.

2. Max out on forts of course, and don't build any additional airfields. I don't see a need for any more than 1 good one. Sure, having 2 is some redundancy, but if the Allies are strong enough to shut down one, they can probably shut down 2 no sweat.

Expanding airbases, however, will give the Allies more targets. At least make them BUILD it once they take a base, will buy you considerable time, as it takes longer to build that airbase in AE. ALOT longer. Because you can't stack 10 SeaBee units there anymore like in the old days.

So, BUILD FORTS ONLY, IMO.

If the Allies control the air over the Marshalls with CVs, you are toast. It's over, no matter how many units you have there. With only a handful of defenders, you can't repulse an invasion if you are subject to BB bombardment and air, no matter how good or well dug-in those troops are. They will die, and the Allies will win. So, no point in committing many ground troops.

The good news is this: They ain't worth as much to the Allies, because they can't really be used as a springboard to other conquests. The Allies can't "store" units there, so successive invasions start at Pearl anyway. The bases are too small for large-scale 4E operations; they can't base many, and at any rate, a couple base units will be hard-pressed to keep 100 4Es operational. Mostly, it clears supply lines, pushes the IJN further West, and is handy for sub basing.

That's my 2 Yen anyway



Mynok -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/1/2009 5:52:14 PM)


With those kinds of troops restrictions, they've reverted to what they were in the real war: a seaplane and sub base of operations.



Shark7 -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/1/2009 5:55:22 PM)

I think the Allies probably have a worse dilemma than the Japanese. Those islands really aren't worth the effort, but you also can't let Miss Betty have a base to run lose through your supply lines. Allies almost have to take them even though they are of no use to them once they have control.



Streptokok -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/1/2009 6:05:10 PM)

Well for the moment there are 2 lvl 4 AF's, likely those are gonna be allied primary targets?
I moved Air HQ from Kwaj to Roi-Namur. Kwaj is "naval base" (larger port) and Roi is "air-base" (larger af).
Problem is, Roi is now full [8|], close to 6k troops. I could maybe squeeze one of those small SNLF units there but thats about it. That isnt going to hold up much, it will be max 50Av and that is best estimate.
I guess once allies get more of B-17 and other monsters this place will be scorched [:(]

And I dont really count on Netties stopping anything remotely sirious in AE, they have proven to be quite uselles. And if they fly unescorted, which happens on at least 70% of the flights, I dont expect to attack in PM because they will be torched.

Does ART unit still "behaves" like CD unit as in stock?
I mean if I put ART unit with 150mm guns will it fire on amph.TF ships?



Q-Ball -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/1/2009 6:56:25 PM)

Netties are more vulnerable, this is true. But your airbases are not going to get torched by 4E. Where would they fly from? Also 4E seems blunted in AE, which it should be.

I personally think the Allies will let you keep it through 1942 at least, and probably not bother until mid-'43, at which point not much you can do about it, outside of Carriers.



Mynok -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/1/2009 7:02:23 PM)


IIRC, the Allies chose to trash it then isolate it. Never bothered taking much past Tarawa.



John Lansford -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/1/2009 9:22:57 PM)

In my first CG I pulled a surprise against the AI and invaded Makin in 1/42.  No problem; I had three CV's running air cover over the amphib TF and shot down plenty of bombers coming from Kwajalein.  Then I looked at my CV fighter groups; they were down to half a dozen fighters each!  I pulled the CV's out (fortunately the LCU's had all landed and I was just unloading supplies by then) but the Marine regiment I had used for the landing was stuck there until I could rebuild my fighter squadrons.

They were bombed mercilessly by the Bettys, and any attempt I made to get supplies to them (or an evac TF to get them out) was torpedoed rather quickly.  I finally sent in a CV TF with some APD's and AP's in a TF to get them out, but not without losses.

Moral of that story is do not go into the CentPac unless you've got a lot of CV's and fighters to resupply your ships with, or you can grab an already developed airbase.  It's now 4/42 and I'm starting to eye Tarawa...



Shark7 -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/2/2009 7:08:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Streptokok

Well for the moment there are 2 lvl 4 AF's, likely those are gonna be allied primary targets?
I moved Air HQ from Kwaj to Roi-Namur. Kwaj is "naval base" (larger port) and Roi is "air-base" (larger af).
Problem is, Roi is now full [8|], close to 6k troops. I could maybe squeeze one of those small SNLF units there but thats about it. That isnt going to hold up much, it will be max 50Av and that is best estimate.
I guess once allies get more of B-17 and other monsters this place will be scorched [:(]

And I dont really count on Netties stopping anything remotely sirious in AE, they have proven to be quite uselles. And if they fly unescorted, which happens on at least 70% of the flights, I dont expect to attack in PM because they will be torched.

Does ART unit still "behaves" like CD unit as in stock?
I mean if I put ART unit with 150mm guns will it fire on amph.TF ships?


That is the main reason that I choke back the range on my Netties to match that of their escorts. It may not let you attack from long range, but it does mean some might actually get through and hit something.



bklooste -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/2/2009 10:24:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Streptokok
So how to put up a resistance here, or should I say is it worth trying?
Almost all places have max 6k troops, most of that is taken by default CD/Base Force.
In short, it looks almost undefendable to me. Im not saying I should be able to keep a division at each atoll, but there just isnt enough room for anything in these small islands.

Any tips?



Work on a counter attack strategy and make any landing expensive via overlapping bases. It will be very hard for him to supply any bases he takes .

The things you need to stop
Massive landings at multiple bases.
Quick Island hopping.

Mines /Air power are the key.

With Shock attacks Anti tank will be key.

I don't think big air bases are a good idea i think i'm going to leave them at 2-3 and use some HQs. If you build up an island it is sure to get targeted since you cant defend it .

If you loose KB in a Midway i dont think the Marshals are defensible.



bklooste -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/2/2009 10:41:37 AM)


quote:

Well for the moment there are 2 lvl 4 AF's, likely those are gonna be allied primary targets?


Yes... Any large air base will be hit with a division. So better to keep the small and use Air Hqs ( save the fragment) .

Without any large bases i don't think B17s will come soon. If you have lots of air fields you can shut down his ones. However if you have a lvl 7 field he will take it put B17s there ( when covered with CVs) and procees to bomb your other bases to smithereens. Only solution don't have 5+ AirFields.

I don't think any allied player will attack in 42 as you will simply come with KB later and wipe him so the question is how do you defend in 43-44. ( if you lose KB its different)

I think the larger islands which can hold 20K are key and it maybe worth building these up with 5-7 Air Field , Forts and CD.



castor troy -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/2/2009 11:17:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

quote:

ORIGINAL: Streptokok
So how to put up a resistance here, or should I say is it worth trying?
Almost all places have max 6k troops, most of that is taken by default CD/Base Force.
In short, it looks almost undefendable to me. Im not saying I should be able to keep a division at each atoll, but there just isnt enough room for anything in these small islands.

Any tips?



Work on a counter attack strategy and make any landing expensive via overlapping bases. It will be very hard for him to supply any bases he takes .

The things you need to stop
Massive landings at multiple bases.
Quick Island hopping.

Mines /Air power are the key.

With Shock attacks Anti tank will be key.

I don't think big air bases are a good idea i think i'm going to leave them at 2-3 and use some HQs. If you build up an island it is sure to get targeted since you cant defend it .

If you loose KB in a Midway i dont think the Marshals are defensible.




mines won´t be much of a key in AE... there are nearly none...



jwilkerson -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/2/2009 6:35:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

That is a very good question. A VERY good one. Defending the Empire in general is going to be very different in AE.

I am not set on any strategy, and I would love to hear opinions, but my initial take:

1. Develop the airbase at Kwaj to the max, leave the HQ there, and rely initially on Betty/Zeros to defend the atoll. The USN is unlikely to want to bring CVs within Betty range in the early going. That should be enough initally, regardless of what's on the ground.

2. Max out on forts of course, and don't build any additional airfields. I don't see a need for any more than 1 good one. Sure, having 2 is some redundancy, but if the Allies are strong enough to shut down one, they can probably shut down 2 no sweat.

Expanding airbases, however, will give the Allies more targets. At least make them BUILD it once they take a base, will buy you considerable time, as it takes longer to build that airbase in AE. ALOT longer. Because you can't stack 10 SeaBee units there anymore like in the old days.

So, BUILD FORTS ONLY, IMO.

If the Allies control the air over the Marshalls with CVs, you are toast. It's over, no matter how many units you have there. With only a handful of defenders, you can't repulse an invasion if you are subject to BB bombardment and air, no matter how good or well dug-in those troops are. They will die, and the Allies will win. So, no point in committing many ground troops.

The good news is this: They ain't worth as much to the Allies, because they can't really be used as a springboard to other conquests. The Allies can't "store" units there, so successive invasions start at Pearl anyway. The bases are too small for large-scale 4E operations; they can't base many, and at any rate, a couple base units will be hard-pressed to keep 100 4Es operational. Mostly, it clears supply lines, pushes the IJN further West, and is handy for sub basing.

That's my 2 Yen anyway


My take is that the bulk of the CENPAC Atolls and small islands are not worth much any more. In WITP, these could become mutually supporting medium sized airbases. And with level-9 forts and 500 AV or so, they could stymie and Allied landing long enough to hit back. Toss in a few thousand mines and the WITP Japanese could make things dicey. But all that is basically gone now in AE. In AE neither side can really defend these places against an enemy determined to take them. If the Allies do reach out and take one or two of the islands early, the Japanese can, if they wish, counter-attack and take them back. This type of activity could generate a carrier battle and subsequent activities would depend on the outcome.

So, net/net, as Japanese, I would put about as much effort into these places as the historical Japanese. I'd trickle in the reinforcements, so that by mid-1943 the area will at least be a speed bump, but I would not invest the kinds of efforts that players did in WITP, that just can't be done in AE.

As the Allies, depending on who I'm playing against, I might very well try an early landing in the Marshalls or Gilberts, the purpose would be to try to steal the initiative from the Japanese. If the Allies can get the Japanese reacting, this takes away much of the power of the Japanese attack.




fcam1387 -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/2/2009 7:17:36 PM)

I reckon that you should keep the lvl 4 AF above Kwajalein and possibly build up the AF at Tarawa to compliment your southern defence. You don't want anything else because you'd be inadvertantly assisting the Americans. There's a base south of Tarawa, Tabiatue(?), that has a very high airfield capacity and if the US captures it and builds it up they will henceforth dominate the entire Marshall Island chain. I try to capture this ASAP and build up the fortress levels.

As it stands, I'm not really sure how many units (mainly naval guards, engineers and LBA) I should commit to this theatre. It's quite the dilemma.



Tone -> RE: JFB question - Marshall's defense (10/4/2009 11:09:08 AM)

The Japanese planners had the same problem. What level of defender would hold Americans out till combined fleet came up.

But in real history the Americans attack first at south west area instead. The force then deployed in south east area was most sent to Solomon area.

The problem then was the battles fort over Marshall was not the battles that were planned. The Combined fleet had been loosed at Midway battle.

So no striking force was available to come up to support Island garrisons. That is where the before war planning came undone.



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