Mg-34 breakdowns. (Full Version)

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troopie -> Mg-34 breakdowns. (11/6/2000 8:01:00 AM)

I've just finished a Germany vs Czechoslovakia battle, November 1938, and I had an unusual number (15) of MG-34 breakdowns. I did not exhaust all the shots in that turn for any weapon. The MG-34s stayed broken down for the entire battle. Is that weapon particularly subject to break downs? troopie ------------------ Pamwe Chete



Warrior -> (11/6/2000 8:32:00 AM)

I'm no expert, but didn't they need to change barrels frequently? That was one reason the squad in Saving Private Ryan was able to take out the MG nest. Whether this would count as a breakdown - ? Personally, I don't allow breakdowns, I have enough trouble just keeping up with the enemy.



mogami -> (11/6/2000 9:19:00 AM)

Hi the changing barrels in Pvt Ryan is a crock of &*%$ while it is practice to change barrels on a MG every time you reload no gunner would stop to change barrel while being close assaulted or under air attack. Burn the barrel toss and draw another when you get a chance.(although not likely to damage barrel) barrels are changed mainly so they wear evenly so the gun data for the weapon does not change when the barrels are. When a MG takes up a position the first thing it does (while the postion is still being dug) is lay in various spots in field of fire and record elv and azimith so weapon can aquire these spots even in smoke of battle. It is just used in SPR to make excuse for stupid frontal assault. (why not use rifle grenade or that great sniper) ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction! [This message has been edited by Mogami (edited November 05, 2000).]



MECH ENGINEER -> (11/6/2000 9:36:00 AM)

Greetings fellow SPWAW wargamers, I'm registered, I own a computer, and I've got some time. I'm going to be joining in. The MG34 certainly wasn't no piece of junk, like the M-60. It was a bullet hose. It was also the first of it kind. The only weapon like it was the MG42. The MG34 was more difficult to manufacture(milling) vs stamped metal, MG42. That's on the reasons why the MG42 replaced the MG34 in front line units. I was trying to find a reference to it but I couldn't find anything in writing. One thing I did notice the german infantry didn't seem to mind carrying it around. You know, "If its a piece of junk, lose it." ------------------ "When do we get our flamethrowers, Top?"



Desert Fox -> (11/6/2000 11:58:00 PM)

Well, I think the answer he is looking for is a no, the MG34 is not subject to more breakdowns. This is not for historical reasons, but because I believe SPWAW breakdowns happen on a flat rate, based on country and year and maybe even troop experience, and then it is factored in how much you actually fire the weapon. Basically, no weapon is more likely to break down than the next, unless you fire it constantly. Even then, I have MGs that are probably melting their barrels, but they don't break down. In your case, it was probably bad luck.



Fabs -> (11/7/2000 12:18:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by REMF: I'm no expert, but didn't they need to change barrels frequently? That was one reason the squad in Saving Private Ryan was able to take out the MG nest. Whether this would count as a breakdown - ? Personally, I don't allow breakdowns, I have enough trouble just keeping up with the enemy.
I am pretty sure the Mg nest in SPR was firing an Mg 42. Mg 42s were modified to make barrel changes easier. Barrel changes would be modelled in the game as a rate of fire issue and should certainly not result in the Mg being US for the rest of the game. ------------------ Fabs



Larry Holt -> (11/7/2000 12:50:00 AM)

Speaking of breakdowns, I have my share of them but I never see the AIP having any in 4.3beta. In previous versions (2.x anyways) I saw AIP weapons malfunctions in the pop up box that displays combat results. Has this changed or is the AIP just not getting any? ------------------ An old soldier but not yet a faded one. OK, maybe just a bit faded.



Kluckenbill -> (11/7/2000 12:50:00 AM)

I'm no expert on the MG34, but I have lots of experience with the M2HB .50 Cal. If you fire more than about 200 rounds non-stop (sorry I can't be more exact but its been 20 years) not only will the barrel glow a handsome shade of cherry red, but it will soften to the point where the barrel will 'whip' and the rounds will scatter rather dramatically at even a couple of hundred yards range. At this point it is necessary to change the barrel and set the head space and timing, an operation that takes about 30 seconds for a trained crew. An untrained crew can take a minute or 2 and burn the hell out of themselves too! Of course slowing down the rate of fire will prolong the amount of time until a barrel change. Also, just the fact that a machine gun has a quick change barrel makes it a much more effective weapon. A German machine gun team with an MG34 or 42 can fire until the barrel glows, change it and keep shooting. An American with a BAR has to just keep shooting and hope the gun doesn't blow up. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !



mogami -> (11/7/2000 1:08:00 AM)

Hi one more thing that is perhaps not clear about barrel changes. They take place during reload and take no more time then normal reload. Just lift a lever unlocking barrel, twist the barrel and pull out, take new barrel (most teams carry between 2 to 4 barrels) slide in twist and flip lever down to lock. US .50cal while holding back cocking lever a-gunner unscrews barrel and pulls out(he wears a big thick mitten for heat) Now heavy MG like US .50cal needs to have headspace set after barrel change pull back cocking lever to open breech insert go/nogo adjust space pull trigger does firing pin go forward if yes then you are ready to load/fire if no must make a few turns on barrel try again. Rate of fire is what determines whether or not you are harming barrel only final protective fire and anti aircraft fire require rates high enough to damage barrel by heat and they do not usally last that long (AC only target for a few seconds and final protective fire you are dead or have time to smoke a cigarette and change barrel after) What bugs me is when weapon carried by high exp unit manovears into good spot gets juisy close range target pulls trigger and weapon malfunctions [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/eek.gif[/img] and is gone for rest of 30 turn battle because they do not know how to perform immedate action on weapon. It is pretty hard for a crew served weapon to break as to be useless for more then 10 or 15 minutes unless crew is shot up and the man carrying the spare firing pin or whatever part that has broke is dead. Most common malfunction for an MG is a jammed round/case and these can be tricky if round fired and just case no prob in tool kit get cleaning rod and have gunner pull back cocking lever a-gunner jams cleaning rod down barrel and pushes case out go back to firing. If misfire and projectile still attached to round it gets harder because round and case will have to be pulled apart to clear. once case out but projectile still in barrel hand load a clearing round (powder case only no bullet on rifles use grenade blank) and fire round should clear. But unless they are just a couple of guys off the street and handed a MG the crews of most of the world should be able to fix that thing they lug around in under five minutes. Why when a grenade misfires all the rest of sqds supply go bad too? Grenades should not misfire I mean when they miss a 70% shot you could chalk it up to dud and not have to actually say malfunction rest of what you are carring is bad too. or break MG since they miss high percentage shots all the time anyway. ------------------ I'm not retreating, I'm attacking in a differant direction! [This message has been edited by Mogami (edited November 06, 2000).]



Lars Remmen -> (11/7/2000 1:15:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Kluckenbill: I'm no expert on the MG34, but I have lots of experience with the M2HB .50 Cal. If you fire more than about 200 rounds non-stop (sorry I can't be more exact but its been 20 years) not only will the barrel glow a handsome shade of cherry red, but it will soften to the point where the barrel will 'whip' and the rounds will scatter rather dramatically at even a couple of hundred yards range. At this point it is necessary to change the barrel and set the head space and timing, an operation that takes about 30 seconds for a trained crew. An untrained crew can take a minute or 2 and burn the hell out of themselves too! [Cut]
A barrel on the MG42 can be changed in a matter of seconds. It is a lot harder to change the barrel of a .50. I have tried both. Even if the barrels were the same weight there would be a significant difference. ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide



halstein -> (11/7/2000 1:46:00 AM)

The Norwegian Army, use the MG3, a sligthly modified MG42. (Uses standar NATO 7.62 55 instead of the German 7.92). And all I have spoken with, who has used it, thinks it a great weapon. ------------------ Halstein



Kluckenbill -> (11/7/2000 2:15:00 AM)

I agree that MG breakdowns are way too common and last way too long in SPWAW. I think that the vehicle breakdowns are more realistic. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !



victorhauser -> (11/7/2000 2:52:00 AM)

I've reached the point where I turn weapon breakdowns OFF for the first two turns of every battle. Starting on turn 3 and on every odd-numbered turn thereafter I turn breakdowns ON (3, 5, 7, 9, etc.) and I turn weapon breakdowns OFF on even numbered turns (4, 6, 8, etc.). I'm not very happy with this arrangement, but since I think the current rate of weapon breakdowns is too high then this is a compromise. I turn vehicle breakdowns OFF on turn 1 and then turn vehicle breakdowns ON for the rest of the battle starting on turn 2.



Arralen -> (11/7/2000 3:13:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by halstein: The Norwegian Army, use the MG3, a sligthly modified MG42. (Uses standar NATO 7.62 55 instead of the German 7.92). And all I have spoken with, who has used it, thinks it a great weapon.
It's 7.62x56mm NATO, and it's in use with the Bundeswehr also. 7.92mm was the old K98 cal. from WW1 .. round where considerably heavier, and rate of fire was also turned down from 1100/min to 800/min. Barrel changing is about 30sec, but don't forget those asbestos [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] If you don't change the barrel, either 150 rounds continuos fire or ~500 rounds in bursts will start harming the barrel badly, but this may have change with the new (12years ago [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ) chromed polygon barrel - didn't see much of them wasted at that time [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Great weapon indeed - if a weapon can be great, that is. A. [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited November 06, 2000).]



johnfmonahan -> (11/7/2000 7:40:00 AM)

Guys, remember your rates of fire. On my old M-60, it was 100 rounds per minute sustained and 600 rpm maximum. This meant that you could fire 100 rpm indefinitly and 600 rpm if you fed it all it would eat. I believe that the sustained rate was related to the amount of heat the barrel would dissipate. I don't know about you, but in SP, I usually fire the max rate, i.e., all available shots. To me it's a wonder anything works after turn 5. ------------------ When in doubt, go on line.



Bill -> (11/7/2000 2:04:00 PM)

On the subject of melting barrels, the British Light Support Weapon (basically heavier barrel version of the British SA-80) has been modified as a result of experience in the Persian Gulf War. They found that with the bipod being fixed directly to the barrel as the barrel got hot it started to bend! This is with a magazine fed weapon so practical rates of fire are much less than that possible with a belt fed weapon. To remedy this, a metal boom was fitted which projects out from the action and the bipod was fitted to this. At one time a changeable barrel system was investigated but it wsan't pursued. It may not be the best LSW in the world but it makes a very accurate rifle from the prone position. Bill



Lars Remmen -> (11/7/2000 2:12:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Arralen: It's 7.62x56mm NATO, and it's in use with the Bundeswehr also. 7.92mm was the old K98 cal. from WW1 .. round where considerably heavier, and rate of fire was also turned down from 1100/min to 800/min. Barrel changing is about 30sec, but don't forget those asbestos [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] If you don't change the barrel, either 150 rounds continuos fire or ~500 rounds in bursts will start harming the barrel badly, but this may have change with the new (12years ago [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ) chromed polygon barrel - didn't see much of them wasted at that time [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] Great weapon indeed - if a weapon can be great, that is. A. [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited November 06, 2000).]
In the Danish army the MG62, as it is called, retains its 1200 rounds/min rate of fire. And 30 seconds to change the barrel?!? Its been nine or so years but I guess I could do it in half that time at this time. ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide



jerrek -> (11/7/2000 5:59:00 PM)

i understand that it was about 250 rounds per barrel for the mg34/42. And that it is not just for continous fire but fired in any manner. I was speaking with a soldier of the australian army recently and he told me that the styer assault rifle was rated for 200 rounds per barrel before replacement. Obviously they could do more if required but i suppose they would be less reliable. Under automatic fire they go transparent and you can see the bullets going up the barrel. Aty this point i would imagine the barrels are quite weak and easily deformed. MG42 would have a similiar problem. At the end of the war (not sure ww1or2) their was a test i remember about with some british shooting a vikers continuously with surpluss ammo to see how long it would last - i seem to remember they gave up after 6000 hours (or some stupid figure). Water cooling, heavy but useful.



mogami -> (11/7/2000 6:23:00 PM)

Hi a MG that could only fire 250 rounds before needing a new barrel would be quite useless (you would need a truck full of barrels) a can of ammo holds 200 rounds. The 2 reasons barrels are changed are they are hot and need to cool down (product of rate of fire) and to have all the barrels for that weapon wear at same rate so as to not change the "dope" (data) from barrel to barrel. Watercooled MG's are never considered to be a "hot" gun as long as the watercooling system is operating. Aircooled weapons are "hot" when a set number (different for different weapon types) of rounds are fired in a set period of time say 300 round in 60 minutes as long as you don't exceed 300 rounds in 60 minutes you never have a "hot" gun and never have to change barrel for that reason. You still might change it if the number of rounds that barrel has fired is higher then the other barrels you are carrying for that weapon. However you would not choose to do this type barrel change if in the middle of a firefight. It is far easier to keep ammo fed to gun by linking belts as you go, so you do not have to interupt or stop fire for that reason. Waiting for a MG to stop to change barrel so you can make a close assault is about as silly as waiting for the crew to stop firing to take a dump!



gdpsnake -> (11/7/2000 7:07:00 PM)

I must admit I was fascinated at all you "grunts" and the discussions on MG's. I flew fighters and trainers in the Air Force for 20 years and never considered the problems of ROF versus barrel changes, etc. Heck, all we got was a few bursts of a few seconds each and you were done for that mission. In fact I love those movies where F-16 aircraft shoot up whole airfields at one try. They never seem to run out of missles or bombs. What a load of #$%! Has the Navy got anything to say other than how to pick up that errant soap bar off the deck?



Pave -> (11/7/2000 9:00:00 PM)

About the original question. I have a book about the Sturm-IIIg assault guns Finland bought in '43-'44. It says that the MG34s in the Finnish Stugs were replaced by the Soviet DTs partly because the MG34 was unreliable. That's all I know, but it was a surprise for me beause I have always thought that MG34 was a high quality weapon.



Lars Remmen -> (11/8/2000 1:02:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Pave: About the original question. I have a book about the Sturm-IIIg assault guns Finland bought in '43-'44. It says that the MG34s in the Finnish Stugs were replaced by the Soviet DTs partly because the MG34 was unreliable. That's all I know, but it was a surprise for me beause I have always thought that MG34 was a high quality weapon.
Pave, I have also read from several sources that the MG34 was a very well made weapon with one flaw: It took too long to produce. Could it be that there were other reasons to the Finnish MG34's unreliability? Ammo or weather perhaps? Any ideas? ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide [This message has been edited by Lars Remmen (edited November 07, 2000).]



BA Evans -> (11/8/2000 1:15:00 AM)

The MG34 was a precision crafted weapon with very tight tolerances. They could become fouled with debris very easily. The extreme cold also played havoc with the gun's reliability. BA Evans



The MSG -> (11/8/2000 3:40:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Pave: About the original question. I have a book about the Sturm-IIIg assault guns Finland bought in '43-'44. It says that the MG34s in the Finnish Stugs were replaced by the Soviet DTs partly because the MG34 was unreliable. That's all I know, but it was a surprise for me beause I have always thought that MG34 was a high quality weapon.
Perhaps they meant that ammosupply was unreliable, not the weapon. I dont know if the Finns produced any 7,92 indigenously. ------------------ The MSG



Hans -> (11/8/2000 6:25:00 PM)

My father told me, he experienced problems with the ammo later in the war. There was a shortage in brass, so the cases were made of steel and were painted dark green. This paint came off and tended to jam the mechanism. Hans



TheOriginalOverlord -> (11/8/2000 6:47:00 PM)

Steel cased ammo was made from the very beginning. I have a box of 1939 dated German 8mm. I think what you are referring to is the laquer coating not the paint on casings. If you fired an MG and got it hot the laquer would end up melting and turning to a sticky goo in the weapons chamber causing the cases to not extract. The only remedy was to strip the weapon and clean off the laquer with a solvent. If you didn't get all the laquer off it would start to jam again as soon as it got hot. HTH Semper Fi ------------------ Semper Fi! Overlord



panda124c -> (11/8/2000 9:07:00 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mogami: [B]The 2 reasons barrels are changed are they are hot and need to cool down (product of rate of fire) and to have all the barrels for that weapon wear at same rate so as to not change the "dope" (data) from barrel to barrel. My understanding of the reason for the barrel change in the MG 34 and 42 was for cooling. In order to maintain a high rate of fire the barrels were changed to replace a hot barrel before it became useless. Thus the MG42 (not sure about the 34) was issued to troops with two barrels and an asbestos glove. The MG42 replaced the MG34 because of ease of production (most parts were stanped instead of machined) and rate of fire. Those Russia hordes sure burn up barrels. ;-)



BlitzSS -> (11/8/2000 10:02:00 PM)

It looks like the consensus is that the MG 34 and 42 were and still are darn good weapons. The only remaining question is does the code have these weapons breaking down too often? If the code takes into account rate of fire (barrel heat related) then the probability of breakdown should increase proportionally as the # of shots/turn increase, rather then as it seems, that breakdowns occur during the 1st round that is fired. Should MG breakdowns be more repairable then other weapon systems and in a shorter duration? Will Matrix ever look at these issues, or will we just have to accept these rules as a general overview of the concept, and tweak them as one such suggestion, by alternating turns in which this preference is activated? This column here needs to be converted to the Grognards handbook on MG maintenance. I can’t help but to be impressed with wealth of knowledge that has earned this reputation. I extend my personal thanks to everyone’s input Keep up the interesting work guys.



Grumble -> (11/8/2000 10:36:00 PM)

FWIW, I turn the weapons breakdown "off" for many of the reasons you've all given. If each turn simulates several minutes, I find it hard to believe that a crew is firing continuously throughout that time unless in FPF. Also, the several minutes gives one time to clear stoppages, change a barrel, adjust a firing position,etc. HOWEVER, if the scenario is late '44-45 then due to an overall decline in training and maintenance, and worse ammo quality (due to a change in the steel alloy in the cartridges) one can make the case that malfunctions should be a factor.



Pave -> (11/9/2000 3:17:00 AM)

MSG, I don't it was unreliable ammo supply, because it was mentioned separately. Finns didn't have much use for the 7.92mm ammo (except in ME-109G-2) so ammo supply wasn't too good for that calibre. I'll try give a translation what the book said: This was written by major Lounila to colonel Bjorkman in September 16, 1943: "...7.92 MG34 is included separately to the assault gun armament. The gun is not perfect compared to the 7.62mm DT. They have experienced malfunctions in Germany too. I suggest that it is replaced by 7.62mm DT." (Laguksen rynnäkkötykit, Erkki Käkelä, p. 93)



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