how do I get level bombers to attack task forces docked in ports? (Full Version)

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silkworm -> how do I get level bombers to attack task forces docked in ports? (6/18/2002 1:51:43 PM)

Playing as the US, my level bombers almost never attack task forces loading/unloading at port, even if they are just 3/4 hexes away, and there's no CAP over the target when I do a ground attack. I've tried just about everything, playing around with altitude, rest settings, escorts. They'll attack ground targets more or less reliably, and sometimes make devasting attacks against task forces at sea, but docked at port, almost never! very frustrating.

I believe Japanese level bombers have a similar problem as well.



Rob Roberson -> Bomb (6/18/2002 2:09:05 PM)

the port. Usually works for me...of course I have thought about sticking a bayonet in my army pilots backs to get them to fly :)



von Murrin -> Bayonets and Army pilots. (6/18/2002 2:30:26 PM)

Air HQ's work well for this. :)



silkworm -> Re: Bayonets and Army pilots. (6/18/2002 3:26:48 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by von Murrin
[B]Air HQ's work well for this. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm, I guess I'll have to wait another three months to get my allied HQ's to try this... Or I could do some experiments on the Japanese side.

I routinely run transports to PM without getting attacked from Rabaul (which has several air HQ's) though, and this is within ZERO's escort range. It seems all coastal hexes offer some cover from air attack. One time I parked a group of transports at a coastal hex for the longest time near PM. They got attacked as soon as I moved them out.



von Murrin -> (6/18/2002 3:37:55 PM)

That and PM is almost at the end of Jap LBA range. AG's don't like to strike too often if the target is near their range limit. :)

Edit: The probability and expected strength of CAP to Escort ratio also has a fair bit to do with the "chicken factor".



Didz -> Re: Re: Bayonets and Army pilots. (6/18/2002 3:51:28 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by silkworm
[B]

Hmm, I guess I'll have to wait another three months to get my allied HQ's to try this... Or I could do some experiments on the Japanese side.

I routinely run transports to PM without getting attacked from Rabaul (which has several air HQ's) though, and this is within ZERO's escort range. It seems all coastal hexes offer some cover from air attack. One time I parked a group of transports at a coastal hex for the longest time near PM. They got attacked as soon as I moved them out. [/B][/QUOTE]

Only B17's, Liberators and Hudsons can reach Rabaul from PM so I have just transferred most of my other bombers to the new bomber strips at Dobadura. They are all able to bomb Rabaul from there and the P-38G's can fly escort at that range too.

PM is only being used by the B17's and Liberators who seem able to protect themselves from the zeros pretty well. The Hudsons have been given other duties as they were getting cut to ribbons.



Slaughtermeyer -> Re: Bomb (6/18/2002 6:57:35 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rob Roberson
[B] [Bomb] the port. Usually works for me...of course I have thought about sticking a bayonet in my army pilots backs to get them to fly :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Page 81 of the manual states that bombers attacking ports will not attack TF's docked in port. Maybe it's worked for you because your primary mission was naval attack and your secondary mission was to bomb the port? The manual could be wrong, I haven't tested it.



Sonny -> Re: Bayonets and Army pilots. (6/18/2002 6:59:56 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by von Murrin
[B]Air HQ's work well for this. :) [/B][/QUOTE]

Do they have better bayonets??:D



Didz -> Re: Re: Bomb (6/18/2002 7:15:37 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Slaughtermeyer
[B]

Page 81 of the manual states that bombers attacking ports will not attack TF's docked in port. Maybe it's worked for you because your primary mission was naval attack and your secondary mission was to bomb the port? The manual could be wrong, I haven't tested it. [/B][/QUOTE]

This might be a misunderstanding.

TF's that are loading/unloading or located in the same hex as the port are classed as docked by the game but can be attacked directly by aircraft even though they benefit from the protection of the CAP at the local airbase.

However, ships from TF's that have been disbanded at that port and are therefore 'docked' as in not visible as TF's can't be attacked by aircraft directly but can be damaged by bombs dropped on the port in the same way as aircraft on the ground can be hit by bombs dropped on an airfield.

I think the confusion arises over the use of the term 'docked' to indicate two different things.



Beckles -> Re: Re: Re: Bomb (6/18/2002 7:34:57 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Didz
[B]However, ships from TF's that have been disbanded at that port and are therefore 'docked' as in not visible as TF's can't be attacked by aircraft directly but can be damaged by bombs dropped on the port in the same way as aircraft on the ground can be hit by bombs dropped on an airfield.

I think the confusion arises over the use of the term 'docked' to indicate two different things. [/B][/QUOTE]

Actually, the game nor the manual never refers to ships that are not in a Task Force as docked and clearly and repeatedly states they are anchored at the base, not docked. The only way to dock a ship is for it to be in a Task Force. (see page 58 of the manual)



Didz -> Re: Re: Re: Re: Bomb (6/18/2002 8:00:23 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beckles
[B]
Actually, the game nor the manual never refers to ships that are not in a Task Force as docked and clearly and repeatedly states they are anchored at the base, not docked. The only way to dock a ship is for it to be in a Task Force. (see page 58 of the manual) [/B][/QUOTE]

Quite right! I just double checked.

Docked ships can be attacked by aircraft directly but with less effect than ships at sea.

Anchored ships only get damaged by attacks on the port itself.

I suspect silkworms bombers are either attacking the port or the enemies ground forces.

I actually have the opposite problem with my B17's preferring to bomb the ships in Rabaul harbour than actually bombing the airfield but I know thats because I have set Naval Attack as their primary mission and Airfield Attack as their secondary.



silkworm -> (6/18/2002 10:13:19 PM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by von Murrin
[B]That and PM is almost at the end of Jap LBA range. AG's don't like to strike too often if the target is near their range limit. :)

Edit: The probability and expected strength of CAP to Escort ratio also has a fair bit to do with the "chicken factor". [/B][/QUOTE]

PM is at the end of ZERO's escort range. Gettys/Nells can reach as far as Cairns I believe.

The time I parked my transports at a coastal hex, they had no CAP over them. Got attacked as soon as they moved out (to another coastal hex or to a sea hex I'm not sure)



silkworm -> (6/18/2002 10:21:24 PM)

Didz -- the problem is I have them all set on naval attack and they won't do it against docked task forces (with a few exceptions such as B17's attacking Rabaul).

I'll throw in another question while we're talking about bombing. What altitude settings have you found to work best for your dive bomber/torpedo bomber combos? It's quite hard to run multiple experiments with this since you can't just reload from a save and do over (random seed is saved so results will be the same). Only way seems to be to play both sides and patiently run the battle on different days... I wonder if anyone has done this and would like to share the results?



Didz -> (6/19/2002 1:21:34 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by silkworm
[B]Didz -- the problem is I have them all set on naval attack and they won't do it against docked task forces (with a few exceptions such as B17's attacking Rabaul).

I'll throw in another question while we're talking about bombing. What altitude settings have you found to work best for your dive bomber/torpedo bomber combos? It's quite hard to run multiple experiments with this since you can't just reload from a save and do over (random seed is saved so results will be the same). Only way seems to be to play both sides and patiently run the battle on different days... I wonder if anyone has done this and would like to share the results? [/B][/QUOTE]

Hmm! can't say I've noticed this as a problem but then I haven't been specifically monitoring it. I'm sure that my bombers at PM have been clobbering transports and AG's unloading supplies at Lae and Saidor and Madang in the past.

As for altitude I leave all my bombers on 1000' as I can't be bothered to fiddle with them. At 6000' I found they rarely scored a hit on ships and at 100' they were using machine guns instead of bombs. Fighters I tend to have on 10,000' or 15,000'.

The real issue are DB's being temporarily used as CAP's sometimes I change the altitudes but most of the time I leave them on 1000'.



von Murrin -> (6/19/2002 2:21:41 AM)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by silkworm
[B]

PM is at the end of ZERO's escort range. Gettys/Nells can reach as far as Cairns I believe.

The time I parked my transports at a coastal hex, they had no CAP over them. Got attacked as soon as they moved out (to another coastal hex or to a sea hex I'm not sure) [/B][/QUOTE]

They won't fly outside the Zero's range, or at least I've never seen them do it.

I've found that bases usually won't launch a strike against a target that [I]might[/I] have CAP (even if it's LRCAP) unless they will get an escort.



Admiral DadMan -> (6/19/2002 2:34:01 AM)

I find that I get best results if I have ALL the A/G that I want to Nav Attack onat least 10% Nav Search to make sure I hit.

Kinda makes sense that to hit a TF, you have to have someone spotting for ya...



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