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Rekm41 -> Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 2:28:47 PM)

Beginner Strategy Questions.

Ok, so I would like to start playing the BTR 43 campaign as the Allies. Realizing that it is quite a feat to do so. I have some initial strategy questions.

1. I would think that the bombing raids should be limited to where the Allies have long range fighter coverage at least initially right?

2. Bomber Command bomb at night right?

3. Which targets should they (the Allied) concentrate on initially? For example the 8th Air force should only bomb shorter range targets until longer ranged fighter coverage becomes available?

4. Fighter-Bombers should they do fighter sweeps and/or bomb airfields?

Thanks for your help.




Hard Sarge -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 3:17:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rekm41

Beginner Strategy Questions.

Ok, so I would like to start playing the BTR 43 campaign as the Allies. Realizing that it is quite a feat to do so. I have some initial strategy questions.

1. I would think that the bombing raids should be limited to where the Allies have long range fighter coverage at least initially right?

with in reason, but at times, you can swamp the defence, and slip a deeper raid in (but I wouldn't be hitting Berlin in 43, plus, while you may not have the fighters to give 100% coverage, you can stragger part of it, you can set up sweeps to meet it on the way back, plus there are alot of decent targets in France and in the North, that are with in range, until you feel safer about going deep, but remember it is a back and forth type game/battle, some days you going to get the bear, other days, the bear is going to get you, but you do have to wear down the LW

2. Bomber Command bomb at night right?

yes, Bomber Command and 205 Group are Night only units

3. Which targets should they (the Allied) concentrate on initially? For example the 8th Air force should only bomb shorter range targets until longer ranged fighter coverage becomes available?

at times you bomb to hit a target type, other times you bomb, trying to force the LW to come out and play, depends on your style and wants

4. Fighter-Bombers should they do fighter sweeps and/or bomb airfields?

again, more based on your style, or what you want to do, plus FB or Fighter with bombs, can hit the smaller target and do damage (radar, Troops, Airfields, some factories) but you want to watch out for Flak Traps, low level AA and Aircraft, don't mix

Thanks for your help.





Rekm41 -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 5:50:35 PM)

Thanks once again for your help Sarge. So many choices in this fine game. Hard to figure things out sometimes. I am sure I will have more questions.




Hard Sarge -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 6:24:31 PM)

I am sure someone will be around to give there point of view :)

and even better, none of them are prefect or, the best way, or the only way




Rekm41 -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 6:30:35 PM)

I sure hope so. I always look for advice. I have been reading the AAR's but not as much help in there as other games. Probably due to the fact that there is so many options and choices etc. I guess I am just looking for a good place to start from and go from there.




Oliver Heindorf -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 6:53:59 PM)

question : When I play the 43 campaign,

does the war progresses like 6/44 normandy

does the supreme HQ demands you to bom forces then or does the hq demands taken out some tanks in the area

etc.

is it possible that your good bombing effort will help to end the war earlier

etc.


thank you




Hard Sarge -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 7:02:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

question : When I play the 43 campaign,

does the war progresses like 6/44 normandy

if you mean, will there be landings, when there should be landings ? with in reason, from the old forum, you may be able to speed it up, or slow it down, for happening

does the supreme HQ demands you to bom forces then or does the hq demands taken out some tanks in the area

you will get Manatory targeting, in this case, OVERLORD, which is a good part of France, with most of the target types that are in France

etc.

is it possible that your good bombing effort will help to end the war earlier

yeap, that is the idea :)

etc.


thank you





Oliver Heindorf -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 9:28:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf

question : When I play the 43 campaign,

does the war progresses like 6/44 normandy

if you mean, will there be landings, when there should be landings ? with in reason, from the old forum, you may be able to speed it up, or slow it down, for happening

does the supreme HQ demands you to bom forces then or does the hq demands taken out some tanks in the area

you will get Manatory targeting, in this case, OVERLORD, which is a good part of France, with most of the target types that are in France

etc.

is it possible that your good bombing effort will help to end the war earlier

yeap, that is the idea :)

etc.


thank you





Does this mean, I HAVE TO play Overlord, to get the mandatory targets - which means that in a 43 Campaign lasting to June 44 I dont get mandatory targets ?

Sorry for sounding stupid but I like the witp/AE approach of "everything" [;)]

Another question : In one AAR I see range circles. [:)]
How do I do that ? [&:]




mikkey -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 9:39:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf
.....
Another question : In one AAR I see range circles. [:)]
How do I do that ? [&:]
if you think Bunyap462 AAR, these range circles are made by hand only in the picture[:(]




Oliver Heindorf -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 9:41:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mikkey


quote:

ORIGINAL: Oliver Heindorf
.....
Another question : In one AAR I see range circles. [:)]
How do I do that ? [&:]
if you think Bunyap462 AAR, these range circles are made by hand only in the picture[:(]



thank you !

oh what a pity - this game needs it very much imho




Rekm41 -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 9:52:04 PM)

Yea Range circles would be a very handy feature.




Nicholas Bell -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 9:56:45 PM)

quote:

Does this mean, I HAVE TO play Overlord, to get the mandatory targets - which means that in a 43 Campaign lasting to June 44 I dont get mandatory targets ?


If you are playing the 700 day 1943 campaign, you will get the various mandatory targeting as you move through the campaign. In addition to Overlord targets (spring 1944}, there is also mandatory targeting of V-Weapon sites (Crossbow) and potentially U-boat targets - pens and factories. Inevitably, right when you're hitting your stride and finally having an impact on whatever you've decided to focus on, HQ will force you to bomb something else and give the Germans time to rebuild and recover. [:)]

Reducing the number of tanks and guns produced (the ARM factories) and/or destroying them in the field can potentially speed up the Allied advance into Germany. What makes this simple plan complicated is that you have so many different ways of achieving that other than just bombing those factories, ways which can potentially work much faster in reducing the number of weapons produced (hitting steel, power, chemicals, or rail). Then there is always that pesky Luftwaffe in the way which needs to dealt with first. And likewise many different approaches to reducing it. Everything is interrelated allowing for many different strategic decisions.




Rekm41 -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 9:58:25 PM)

See attached was wondering what this does during bombing mission planning?

[image]local://upfiles/13510/F7B7C69FE68241559427B1372FB20218.jpg[/image]




Richard III -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 10:07:51 PM)

There seems to be a misunderstanding here ?, perhaps by me ? You do get " ranges " in the Game when plotting missions. There just not circles.

When you plot a target the white outbound line plot comes up in white if it`s in bomb range. When you add the fighter escort you get a green line on top of the white bomber plot line that shows the range of the fighter escort type you picked.

In " Mission Review" you can see the take off and TOT data. FWIW, in BTR you`ll soon find out it`s somewhat unwise to fly the 8th. AF bombers past the escorts max range.

I`m not sure how " Range Circles" would be better ??[:)]




Rekm41 -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 10:12:37 PM)

I did not realize the info provided by the lines. That said I do not see any green lines for escorts though.

You meant if the escorts can cover the distance you get a green line right? I just tried setting up a mission into Northern France with some Spit escorts and the green line showed up.

Nooby here? [:)]




Rekm41 -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 10:20:59 PM)

Ok so I have some fighters assigned to this mission and the green line only goes so far. Can I presume then that is where the escort coverage ends?

[image]local://upfiles/13510/DB51276ECA5249789588A354B0C138EF.jpg[/image]




Richard III -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 10:28:33 PM)

Yes, but the distance from the P-38`s base to the assembly area where the mission is launched comes into it. That`s why it`s a good idea to keep the P-38`s bases near the B-17`s / Libs. bases if your going up to France or past Rome in Italy.[;)]




Rekm41 -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 10:35:14 PM)

Getting a better grasp on this now. Thanks for your help Richard, or should I say my Leige?




Oliver Heindorf -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 10:40:17 PM)

[&o] thank you  Mr. Bell and Richard III !




invernomuto -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 11:09:05 PM)

Thanks Richard III, very useful info.

Bye




Kriegsspieler -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/12/2009 11:48:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

There seems to be a misunderstanding here ?, perhaps by me ? You do get " ranges " in the Game when plotting missions. There just not circles.

When you plot a target the white outbound line plot comes up in white if it`s in bomb range. When you add the fighter escort you get a green line on top of the white bomber plot line that shows the range of the fighter escort type you picked.

In " Mission Review" you can see the take off and TOT data. FWIW, in BTR you`ll soon find out it`s somewhat unwise to fly the 8th. AF bombers past the escorts max range.

I`m not sure how " Range Circles" would be better ??[:)]

Richard, the green plots on the escorts makes sense, but how do the actual numbers posted in a group's range translate? For example, if I have a mission plotted to a target that's 145 miles from the mission assembly point (I assume that's what the range shown when you click on a target is, right?), does a value such as "29" for a given fighter group's range mean that that group can only travel 29 miles along the route with the bombers from that assembly point before turning back?




Baron von Beer -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/13/2009 1:37:35 AM)

When you click on a target, it will display the range from your nearest airfield. 

The "range" when choosing escorts, is their distance to your assembly airfield.  Eg:  If your form up base is the escorts home base, they will show 0 "range".




jomni -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/13/2009 2:31:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III
I`m not sure how " Range Circles" would be better ??[:)]


Range circles will show you all the areas in the map that the plane can go to without picking targets and plotting routes. Easier for "pre-planning".

What about for the defensive player, shouldn't it also have range circles?




Dobey455 -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/13/2009 3:01:22 AM)

The way the game works thoguh, it would be impossible.
Aircraft for each strike package come from different airbases and so unless you are flying one type of A/C from the one airbase every squadron will have a different range from the form up point depending how far away their home base is.




Bearcat2 -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/13/2009 3:18:27 AM)

As the Allied player Some of the things I do:
Recon every target and nearby target, I plan on attacking within 2 days of the attack, 1st day, I will recon first thing in the morning and send in attacks in the afternoon.
I move my fighters to bases nearer the assembly areas.
Staggering escort times to cover bombers is obvious.
I try to take out all the radar stations on the coast with med bmbrs or FB's no escort. keeping the radar stations knocked out. I then do the same to coastal airfields that I have recon on that shows German planes based on.
Send in sweeps at various times of the day
Always send in attacks throughout the day to exhaust german defenders
When making a large bombing attack, I send in the bombers in a group, with groups peeling off to attack targets, escorting the furthest attack group and making the return plots to coincide withe incoming plots , so that delayed fighter escorts have a chance of intervening against German fighters along the way. If I do it right, I have the Spits sweep the same plot as the returning bombers on their  the last leg back to England.
Try to only send higher morale planes out.
In Italy, I try to bomb mid range Italian targets, when the Allies invade Sicily and Southern Italy all that territory becomes allied.




TechSgt -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/13/2009 6:00:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III
I`m not sure how " Range Circles" would be better ??[:)]


Range circles will show you all the areas in the map that the plane can go to without picking targets and plotting routes. Easier for "pre-planning".

What about for the defensive player, shouldn't it also have range circles?



I use to think the same thing about range circles. After getting use to the game, and moving my units to where they will best execute "my strategy", I find that I wouldn't be using range circles.

But!!! Just because I don't use them now, doesn't mean that they wouldn't have been helpful during that first year of learning how to play the game. [;)]

TS




Richard III -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/13/2009 2:37:57 PM)

The Baron is right as always [:)]

You can also change the default assembly area by mouse clicking "off" to another area/base after you get the first white target line. Useful mostly in the Med if you need to change the direction the raids goes in at or to avoid fighters/flak or to get closer to Fighter Sqd. bases.

Also changing bases is very cheap and fast, and once the Invasion of the bottom of Italy opens up new bases for the Med AF and the 12th. AF give careful thought to how you want to postion you Bomb & Fighter Escort units in regard to their missions to support your overall strategy in the Med.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Baron von Beer

When you click on a target, it will display the range from your nearest airfield. 

The "range" when choosing escorts, is their distance to your assembly airfield.  Eg:  If your form up base is the escorts home base, they will show 0 "range".






Rekm41 -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/13/2009 2:42:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

The Baron is right as always [:)]

You can also change the default assembly area by mouse clicking "off" to another area/base after you get the first white target line. Useful mostly in the Med if you need to change the direction the raids goes in at or to avoid fighters/flak or to get closer to Fighter Sqd. bases.


What do you mean by mouse clicking "off"? Where do you click that? When you set your initial point or inbound leg?




Nicholas Bell -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/13/2009 4:57:40 PM)

I think he's referring to the 1st inbound point.  For example, if you plot to bomb a target in northern Italy, the program creates a flight path from the nearest Allied airfield in Corsica.  Not much help if you don't have any units based there - or do, but are not the one's you want to use.  By selecting the 1st inbound point and clicking in southern Italy the flight path will originate in that area - closer to where your units are based.  You want the raid to form up so the distance from the bomber and fighter airfields "makes sense"  - you don't want your planes hundreds of miles before even starting the mission.  When you select the lead bomber, additional bombers and escorts the "Range" column is the distance between the unit's airfield and the raid start point.  The shorter the better.




Golden Bear -> RE: Beginner Questions (10/13/2009 5:14:01 PM)

This game has a steep learning curve but it does begin to plateau off after a few turns. And there is no reason that you shouldn't win with your first attempt - I did with BTR back in the day.

Early in the game, playing the Allies, you will be struggling to hit much that is high value and with very few resources. My recommendation is not to fight against this but roll with it. There are many good targets within easy reach that can be covered with escorts. Try not to get all your named pilots - the 90+ ones - killed by starting off overly aggressive in what is a very long game. Many people have found that a '43 campaign takes almost as long to finish as the original campaign.

Speaking for the Heavies:

Generally, don't put more than 2-3 BGs bombing a given target. Get used to the idea that you will need to rebomb many of the places - that matches history. If you pile up a bunch of bombers for a target and it can't find it you've blown a day of fatigue and morale without good results. Better is to launch 2-3 2 BG raids at nearby targets. Plot the first one and make certain that you have a secondary target. Try to run the red and white lines clear of big targets (with AA), RR yards and airfields. Set the IP and the EP so that they form a shallow angle if you can. THis way the bombers minimize the amount of time in the flak zone. Pick your lead BG to have good morale and good exp. Weaker exp with better morale is the better choice. Add a second BG with decent morale and middling exp - its exp will develop with missions completed. Then put on escorts. Don't cheap out on these. When the escort screen comes up it shows the closest units first. These will be able to spend more of their time with the mission than flying to the assembly area on the E coast of England. Click on the different AC types and see how far they can cover. The Spit Vs cannot cover far but don't neglect using them, particularly early in the game. Set the escorts by setting the delay to 10 and clicking a unit. The right click on the first box (white?) and slide it around a little - also over on to the red line. Those Spits are handy coming in at the end of the raid to discourage the LW over the channel

Don't cheap out on escorts. Use about half of what you have for the double raid... thus about a quarter for this first raid. Layer them. You might put a single unit in close escort and then everything else up high. If you have enough, put one unit up at 3000 feet over over, then others at 2000ish, 1000 down do 500 if you want. Stagger the delays. Remember that you will have a second raid going along with this one and it can fill in some of the gaps in escort since they basically will share.

With that done, you've got your first raid plotted. Click "New Raid" and then "Follow." Then click "Primary" and pick a different target close to the first and then a new secondary. Then follow the above process for selecting lead group, escorts, etc. A well covered raid will have as many or more escorts as bombers.

Now you have a double raid that should draw up the LW to where you can shoot at them!

BTW, you need to look at your weather before launching a raid. The clouds on the map during the plotting are for 4:30 a.m. They will move SE with time. Does it look like you will have an opening on the E coast around 6? If not, try starting later.

When you launch the raid, set time to 1 and messages to 3... you'll want a notepad handy. Don't ever change the time from 1 or the damage, etc. won't work right. Keep one finger on the S key and wait for a message that fighters are launching from a LW base. Hit S and write down the base. Then hit C until another message comes up. You want to find out all the nearby (N France, Holland, Belgium) airbases that have interceptors. After a while you can sit back and enjoy the carnage. Don't be discouraged if your bombers don't do much damage right away. There are good days and bad days. You would like to knock down LW planes though, so any raid is a success.

A note about this... the LW gets fatigued and has their morale drop just like yours. Flying every day, with well protected missions of course, will cause them to get more and more tired until they need to rest. The ones that don't rest will become less effective.

To add to a day's missions, you can launch your short range types like the Typhoons and Mediums about 1.5 hours after the heavies take off and away from the path of the big raid or raids. You don't want to be near that area because there will be all kinds of hungry sharks prowling. Put escorts on the Mediums but I usually don't bother with the Typhoons because I keep them close to the coast and usually (not always) they can get over and back without getting hit. A nice thing about this game is that the escorts for Mediums will defend them, sometimes very well.

And another wrinkle is Fighter Sweeps (FS). Don't get carried away with them. They can hammer your units and WILL lower morale particularly if you have the same unit doing it over and over. The American planes are generally the bestt for this, since they carry heavier armament. The P47 is the FS plane of choice but you need to rotate a unit through escort and FS to keep morale up. Anyway, if you have been taking notes, from the second turn onwards you can run FSs to bases which have a high liklihood of having planes. Note that the LW shuffles units between turns regularly and you may come up empty. Launch the FS 1.5 hours after the main raid(s) and you will have a good chance of not only strafing the field and destroying planes on the ground but of catch planes landing and shooting down some of them. This is good because it gives you a chance to kill named LW pilots, which ground destruction doesn't. If I really want a killer FS, I bring them in low, under 10k, but this risks them getting bounced if you are unlucky. Stuff like that happens but you've got to take the chance.

This should give you a good shot of playing the first turn or two with some success, and thereby beginning to learn things for yourself. Watch how expended LW fighters peel off the raid and go home. Do they follow a certain path at a certain time? Maybe you could launch a FS timed to go up that same path and catch them with low fuel, etc.

Recon: Is a pain. If you are patient and caring you can plot it all yourself. I usually let the AI do it for me and just keep changing target types and clicking several times. If there are a couple places you particulary wantt to see, you can either plot it yourself or, after doing AI plotting, go into "Review Missions" and then modify the raid to have its primary be your desired target. Also, I usually only do this on rest days or days that look to cloudy for raids. Otherwise they distract from watching the interesting stuff.

Night bombing... well I am tired of typing right now but the bombing part isn't to hard to figure out. Again you should write down all the bases that launch NJs at a raid and then you can start putting your on NFs on top of them to catch them coming home. Plotting NFs is slow since each single plane needs to be set up separately. However, you can make itt a little easier: Figure out when your first plane should be over an airfield. Again the 1.5 hour works as a good rule of thumb. Launch your first NF 1.5 hours after the big raid(s) take off. Guide it to the target airfield at maybe 10000 feet, pick a unit, DON'T pick multiple planes, then click: New Mission-Follow-Pick Unit-(Done)-add hour to the time, then New mission, etc. Go forward about 3 hours, then go back 1/2 hours and twice more by hours. This minimizes clicking and gets planes covering an airfield at half hour intervals.

Enough for now. Good luck with this very addicting game!


Carl




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