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SireChaos -> The Map (10/14/2009 9:10:40 PM)

This was already a sore point for me with the original game, and I had hoped it would be corrected now, but it hasnīt been: the map is, quite frankly, horrible.

Oh, sure, it looks very pretty by the standards of when the game originally came out, and Iīm certainly not somebody who insists in the latest flashy graphics, but that isnīt the issue. The issue is that, in terms of accuracy - which I get the impression Mr Grigsby prides to take very seriously - it is simply atrocious.

Let us start with the simple yet important example of the Rhine - one of Europeīs major rivers and probably Germanyīs most important waterway. Yet, on the BtR map, half of it is simply missing. Some geographically challenged person simply didnīt extend it any further south than its confluence with the Main river. And letīs not mention that neither is your Frankfurt-am-Main at the Main, nor Frankfurt-an-der-Oder on the Oder. Most Americans, Iīm sure, wouldnīt notice that, but Iīm sure they would notice (and complain bitterly) if some inept European hack wrote a Civil War game in which the Mississippi sprang from somewhere near Memphis, Tenessee. With all due respect to you guys, but when someone researches the OoB down to the least pilotīs given name, but leaves the map at the bad joke that it currently is, I have to wonder... do US maps of central Europe just show a big blank spot and a warning sign "Here there be dragons"?

Letīs just take a detailed look at one small region, the area around Frankfurt-am-Main (an area which some of you might know for the Rhein-Main airbase and the former US headquarters in the even more former IG-Farben-Haus). Attached below is the map segment cut from the BtR map in-game. The Rhein/Main river is highlighted red for emphasis; the yellow lines are a rough sketch of how the rivers ought to be - took me all of five minutes in Google Earth. The cities are Frankfurt, Offenbach, Mainz, Wiesbaden, Hanau and Aschaffenburg - the red letters are for identification, the yellow ones are where Mainz, Hanau and Aschaffenburg ought to be, more or less.

[image]local://upfiles/21994/F903F620486B401BB7AA0FFB416DA459.jpg[/image]



Nicholas Bell -> RE: The Map (10/14/2009 9:56:20 PM)

Yes, the map is horribly inaccurate.  The coastlines are just as bad.  Even the relative location of targets is not 100% correct, although probably close enough for game purposes.

Apart from being unable to identify the symbols because of the colors, the other reason I created my map mods was to avoid having to look at map details.  Having been stationed in Wuerzburg for 3 years and knowing the region well, the area of the map you note also made me feel rather sad.

I would like to create a more realistic map but the game map does not conform with any known map projection I can overlay.  Accurate rivers and coastlines only highlight the errors in target locations.

I still love this game though [:)].



SireChaos -> RE: The Map (10/14/2009 10:15:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

Yes, the map is horribly inaccurate.  The coastlines are just as bad.  Even the relative location of targets is not 100% correct, although probably close enough for game purposes.


Given the usual amount of detail in Gary Grigsby games, Iīm even more surprised about the lack of attention the map received in either version of the game.

quote:

Apart from being unable to identify the symbols because of the colors, the other reason I created my map mods was to avoid having to look at map details.  Having been stationed in Wuerzburg for 3 years and knowing the region well, the area of the map you note also made me feel rather sad.


I *live* in the region. Thatīs why I picked this one.

quote:

I would like to create a more realistic map but the game map does not conform with any known map projection I can overlay.  Accurate rivers and coastlines only highlight the errors in target locations.


Well, yeah. The map already has enough ports far from any coast or river.

quote:

I still love this game though [:)].


Me, too - despite its faults.



JudgeDredd -> RE: The Map (10/14/2009 10:15:35 PM)

Seriously - exactly why does it matter? I'm being genuinely serious here....does it actually impact on gameplay? I'll grant you that they are incorrect...that's a given. But why is this an issue?

I really, really hope Matrix and the devs do not waste time moving population areas 3mm! There are more important things than this. [8|]



SireChaos -> RE: The Map (10/14/2009 10:26:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

Seriously - exactly why does it matter? I'm being genuinely serious here....does it actually impact on gameplay? I'll grant you that they are incorrect...that's a given. But why is this an issue?


Does having 18,000 historical pilots, rather than just 100-200 famous one, impact on gameplay? Even less so than having a map that is not an eyesore to any European with a middle-school level grasp of geography would. Yet the amount of time and effort lavished on the OoB it totally out of proportion to what was, or rather was not, applied to the map.

quote:

I really, really hope Matrix and the devs do not waste time moving population areas 3mm! There are more important things than this. [8|]


More important things? Like adding another dozen or so obscure historical pilots?

I wonder if Matrix Games would have cared if Iīd payed 40-odd Russian rubles instead of Euros for this game. I mean, itīs European money, too, so whatīs the difference? Thereīs more important things for me to do than get minor details like that right, arenīt there?



Rekm41 -> RE: The Map (10/14/2009 10:29:38 PM)

I concur. Lots of complaints. You cannot please everyone. I look at it this way. Good depth of play and lots of strategy choices etc. Koodoos to Matrix and the developers of this and many of their other games.



JudgeDredd -> RE: The Map (10/14/2009 10:37:35 PM)

I'm not trying to invalidate your point. But I failt o see how it affects gameplay.

It's your crib. If it's bugging you then it's affecting your gameplay I guess. But this reminds me of those blasted rivet counters in the fligh sim world.

Everybody has a beef I suppose...but there are more important things...and no...not having 18,000 historical pilots. I couldn't give a rats arse if the game had 18000 historical pilots or 10 because that doesn't impact on gameplay. The values of those pilots experience does...so in that respect it's important.

And whilst I say that, then it follows I guess that the placement of "some" areas may be important in terms of gameplay because of flak presence etc...so I concede and will leave you to your gripe.



Golden Bear -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 12:14:19 AM)

I'm on the J. Dredd side here. Doesn't affect gameplay and they've done a lot and are doing more to improve that. The 18000 pilots is a straw dog since that is EASY to do - just adding names where they need names anyway. A map change is not easy so not comparable. And yes, I do have sympathy to things not looking right. Yes, I've spent a lot of time in Europe - Germany and Italy - but I'm more worried about where that Me262 unit is based. Just on a game that spans a subcontinent over almost two years of other complicated changes, personally don't see it as a big deal.

Mississippi in ACW scenario as a comparison is also misleading since it was hugely important in that conflict but Rhine has no relevance to this game. Maybe they should just take it out. If they were doing a sim about battle for Aachen I'll bet they would have the river location nailed down tho'.


Carlos



terry1040 -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 8:39:42 AM)

Well, I do have to disagree here.

This game is about historical accuracy.
They have spent months (if not years) on entering all the pilot names (though many of them seem to be pretty generic like ObLt A.C.Stahlhut, who's name simply does not match any normal German Family Name).

So having an accurate map is in my opinion crucial for a game is meant to recreate history. Let us face it, this game is the only one covering this particular time period and operations an the market. It is now update to survive the operating systems for next 10 years.
This is the time to spend additional effort in cleaning up the mistakes that still exist in the database or the handling/interaction with the user interface. The map is just one example or this.
All targets have a defined coordinate which can be changed in the database.
With some efforts (maybe also with the help of the community) the map can be matched to the real world and the then the targets need to be moved if necessary.
I really would appreciate such effort and certainly would do my part to support this.

Terry



otisabuser2 -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 9:02:51 AM)

I understand the concerns shown about map accuracy.

It is ( excuse the slight pun ) a question of scale.

Yes some targets in Europe may be 5 or 10 miles left or right of where they should really be. But when mission range approaches 1000 miles, then the error is fractional in real terms.

We began moving targets in the BoB scenario. There is a whole can of worms involved in moving targets slightly. Once you shift one, the others don't look correct in relation to them, so you end up moving a dozen more, then another dozen.

In the BoB scenarios we re-drew the coastlines of the UK and France more accurately, so we could put places where they really were. Some rivers were moved also ( even though they are just eye candy ).

Why change the BoB side only ? Like SiresChaos, I recognised slight errors in the area where I live. Smaller maps and database meant it was easier to make changes.

Bear in mind there are practical limitations too, ie targets have to be seperated by a small distance to prevent visual clutter/confusion. No one would thank us if two targets were so close together that you couldn't easily select the right target.

As I understand it, adding pilots to the database is simply a matter of typing the guys stats into the correct database location. No need to re-draw any maps or move other guys around.

Also bear in mind HS was getting numerous requests to add names to the database. I don't recall any beforehand asking for map improvements. Point out target placement errors and they will be looked at. If you can draw maps, get cracking ! T[:)] There's already some nice ones in the mod section.



harley -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 9:24:27 AM)

otisabuser2 is responsible for the higher accuracy of the south part of the British Isles in ED. As a volunteer (he didn't step back as quick as the others) he only had time to change that small area.

For whatever reason, the artist was not asked to correct the map, only recolour it to make it a little prettier. We didn't have a cartogropher to make it all accurate. The best we could do was Ron moving locations around based on the records available to him and the others on the team with an interest in accuracy. Otis, DBS, Steve, Werner and Shags all receive honourable mentions for their assistance.

But, in the scheme of things these errors are glaringly obvious only to those with explicit knowlege of the areas concerned. Feel free to do a mod.

In the (bastardised) immortal words of Douglas Adams - where the map is inaccurate, it is definitively inaccurate.



Hard Sarge -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 12:28:28 PM)

for the map, that is what we got, so that is what we had to work with

"They have spent months (if not years) on entering all the pilot names (though many of them seem to be pretty generic like ObLt A.C.Stahlhut, who's name simply does not match any normal German Family Name)"

that is a AI pilot, not a named pilot (or a pilot who was added from at start, if I can't prove they didn't belong, I didn't take them out), and since when do normal family names mean anything ? there are many German pilots, that you would swear were U.S., and a good part of the U.S. Roster looks like they flying for the wrong side


(Stahlhut is one of the names that came with the game, a lot of those names came from dead lists, I can't prove yea or nea on them, so I left them in, some body may of had better sources then I did)

(but will agree, I don't find any Stahlhut in any of my pilot data bases)



Dixie -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 1:08:27 PM)

It's easy to pick fault with something that someone else has done isn't it? [:'(]  Redrawing the entire map of Europe with geographically exact rivers, cities, factories and airfields then getting it to work properly in the game is goijg to be harder than it sounds...



von Shagmeister -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 2:13:08 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: terry1040

They have spent months (if not years) on entering all the pilot names (though many of them seem to be pretty generic like ObLt A.C.Stahlhut, who's name simply does not match any normal German Family Name).

Terry


Two examples of real life Stahlhut's who flew with the Lw.

Obfw Heinz Stahlhut (Ff) Stab/JG 301 WIFA 21Jan44 flying a FW 190A-7

Obfw Richard Stahlhut (Bf) 4./KG 51 awarded DKiG 16Oct43




SireChaos -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 4:37:14 PM)

I canīt believe what Iīm reading here. This is supposed to be a wargame, for wargamers, not the umpteenth C&C clone for the attention-impaired mass market consumer.

You inherited a game with an already very extensive and detailed OOB and a crappy map... which you spent years turning into a game with an even more insanely detailed OOB and the same crappy map.

Donīt give me that **** about "what does it matter"? Tell me instead, what does it matter to have 18000 historical pilots in the database, about all except 50-100 or so of which 99% of the players have never heard and who they wouldnīt miss if they werenīt there. Yet you went through all the insane effort to put them in anyway.
Then you turn around and keep that travesty of a map essentially as it is... apparently thinking that most gamers are too ignorant to notice all the glaring mistakes, and those suckers that do notice them (including the vast majority of Europeans who buy the game, and are NOT too ignorant to notice that half the Rhine is missing, for example) just donīt matter. You just donīt give a ****ing damn, which is an insult to those of your players who have half a clue about European geography.

And donīt tell me to make a map mod if I donīt like your map. I paid the money for a full-price game for this; it is not my task to do your job for you.



JudgeDredd -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 5:27:01 PM)

So having a "some" areas a few mm away from where they are meant to be makes it "the umpteenth C&C clone for the attention-impaired mass market consumer. "

I'm not saying you don't have a valid point. And I'm certainly not saying do it yourself - but I am saying in games terms, it means nothing. If they moved Germany to where France is then yes - that's an issue. If they moved Berlin to where Hamburg is then yes - that's an issue. But having a few suburbs a few mm out on the map is NO BIG DEAL.



SireChaos -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 5:51:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

So having a "some" areas a few mm away from where they are meant to be makes it "the umpteenth C&C clone for the attention-impaired mass market consumer. "


Thatīs nothing like what I said. Perhaps you should read my post again.

quote:

I'm not saying you don't have a valid point. And I'm certainly not saying do it yourself - but I am saying in games terms, it means nothing. If they moved Germany to where France is then yes - that's an issue. If they moved Berlin to where Hamburg is then yes - that's an issue. But having a few suburbs a few mm out on the map is NO BIG DEAL.


If it was "a few suburbs a few mm out on the map", I wouldnīt be complaining. Iīm saying the map is an eyesore for offering no more than a rough resemblance to an actual map of Europe.



Nicholas Bell -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 5:56:12 PM)

Well, I don't recall a request for volunteers for map making, but I will step up to the plate.  I've been making wargame maps for 30+years, everything from paper to 2D computer, to 3D maps based on STRM DEM.  I've been doing map making work for HPS Simulations since 1993, everything from the old Tigers on the Prowl series, to ADC2 boardgame conversions, to classified maps for HPS contract work for the US government using their Point of Attack simulation.

Would seem to be a fairly simple, albeit time-consuming endeavor.  At least in comparison to some of my other projects.  In brief, I would need the extents of the program coordinate system and the scale.  Then its simply a matter of selecting the map projection and sizing the area to cover the existing map, scaling it to match the game system, locating the targets, logging the resultant coordinates and entering the data into the program data files.



otisabuser2 -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 6:21:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos


If it was "a few suburbs a few mm out on the map", I wouldnīt be complaining. Iīm saying the map is an eyesore for offering no more than a rough resemblance to an actual map of Europe.


I'm curious as to what other game out there uses a more accurate map than we have on such a grand scale ? Every good wargame I can think of customises the real map in some way or another.



SireChaos -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 7:47:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: otisabuser2


quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos


If it was "a few suburbs a few mm out on the map", I wouldnīt be complaining. Iīm saying the map is an eyesore for offering no more than a rough resemblance to an actual map of Europe.


I'm curious as to what other game out there uses a more accurate map than we have on such a grand scale ? Every good wargame I can think of customises the real map in some way or another.



Thereīs WitP-AE. They face much more extreme constraints, working with a 40nm hex map rather than a 1 mile grid, yet they end up with as good a likeness to the real geography as they could fit into the constraints of the engine. And at least they decided it is worth putting as much effort into getting the map right as into everything else.

And the BtR map isnīt "customizing" - itīs just plain wrong. The position of the industries relative to the cities, thatīs customizing, because theyīd overlap and often enough youīd have two or more targets in the same grid square - and Iīm certainly not complaining about that. Stuff like what Iīve point out on the opening post graphic, on the other hand, is just plain lazily carelessly wrong.



Hard Sarge -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 7:50:36 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

I canīt believe what Iīm reading here. This is supposed to be a wargame, for wargamers, not the umpteenth C&C clone for the attention-impaired mass market consumer.

You inherited a game with an already very extensive and detailed OOB and a crappy map... which you spent years turning into a game with an even more insanely detailed OOB and the same crappy map.

Donīt give me that **** about "what does it matter"? Tell me instead, what does it matter to have 18000 historical pilots in the database, about all except 50-100 or so of which 99% of the players have never heard and who they wouldnīt miss if they werenīt there. Yet you went through all the insane effort to put them in anyway.
Then you turn around and keep that travesty of a map essentially as it is... apparently thinking that most gamers are too ignorant to notice all the glaring mistakes, and those suckers that do notice them (including the vast majority of Europeans who buy the game, and are NOT too ignorant to notice that half the Rhine is missing, for example) just donīt matter. You just donīt give a ****ing damn, which is an insult to those of your players who have half a clue about European geography.

And donīt tell me to make a map mod if I donīt like your map. I paid the money for a full-price game for this; it is not my task to do your job for you.


as I have already said, this is what they gave me to work with, so it is what I worked with



Dixie -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 8:08:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

Thereīs WitP-AE. They face much more extreme constraints, working with a 40nm hex map rather than a 1 mile grid, yet they end up with as good a likeness to the real geography as they could fit into the constraints of the engine. And at least they decided it is worth putting as much effort into getting the map right as into everything else.

And the BtR map isnīt "customizing" - itīs just plain wrong. The position of the industries relative to the cities, thatīs customizing, because theyīd overlap and often enough youīd have two or more targets in the same grid square - and Iīm certainly not complaining about that. Stuff like what Iīve point out on the opening post graphic, on the other hand, is just plain lazily carelessly wrong.


Maybe there are some things that HS and team couldn't control... As far as I am aware, none of the actual team are "full-time" artists so redrawing the entire map isn't something they could easily do. If they had redrawn the entire map in the spare time they had then we'd still be waiting (and would be for a looooooong time) for the game.



JudgeDredd -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 8:15:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos


quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

So having a "some" areas a few mm away from where they are meant to be makes it "the umpteenth C&C clone for the attention-impaired mass market consumer. "


Thatīs nothing like what I said. Perhaps you should read my post again.

Well I apologise, but I took this
quote:

I canīt believe what Iīm reading here. This is supposed to be a wargame, for wargamers, not the umpteenth C&C clone for the attention-impaired mass market consumer
to mean that because of these glaring map issues the game would be more likened to a mass market C&C game...and that doesn't make sense.

Also
quote:

If it was "a few suburbs a few mm out on the map", I wouldnīt be complaining. Iīm saying the map is an eyesore for offering no more than a rough resemblance to an actual map of Europe.
is a ridiculous statement. The map is perfectly acceptable as a strategic map of Europe for an air campaign. Ground campaign may well be a different story...but the game representing an air campaign over Europe? The map is more than acceptable. Your example, which you and I are speaking of, shows a few suburbs a few mm apart. So you are complaining about a few suburbs a few mm apart in your original post. You even showed a picture to prove your point.

You come from the area. So you have a personal interest in the area and have noticed abnormalities. That's normal I guess. But shouting about it seems mad. It does not affect the gameplay as is. It doesn't mean bombers or fighters cannot reach the area because it's moved so far as to make it unreachable. To have a map like that would require fixing. As it is, it's aesthetic at best and does not need fixing.

But I have no input in what gets fixed and what doesn't...I just hope something like this is last on their list. I hope the first to be fixed is the issue with multi core. Others might want their CTD fixed (of which I have not had). You want the map fixed. I guess we'll each get our fix as and when the devs deem it appropriate/necessary to look at.

Clearly it's important to you, so I hope you get it fixed.



Dobey455 -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 8:15:45 PM)

You say you know the EDTBTR map is wrong because you live in Europe. If that's the case how do you know the AE map is so highly accurate?



Toby42 -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 8:22:46 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

You say you know the EDTBTR map is wrong because you live in Europe. If that's the case how do you know the AE map is so highly accurate?


HA!!! A good question???



Toby42 -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 8:30:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos

Thereīs WitP-AE. They face much more extreme constraints, working with a 40nm hex map rather than a 1 mile grid, yet they end up with as good a likeness to the real geography as they could fit into the constraints of the engine. And at least they decided it is worth putting as much effort into getting the map right as into everything else.

And the BtR map isnīt "customizing" - itīs just plain wrong. The position of the industries relative to the cities, thatīs customizing, because theyīd overlap and often enough youīd have two or more targets in the same grid square - and Iīm certainly not complaining about that. Stuff like what Iīve point out on the opening post graphic, on the other hand, is just plain lazily carelessly wrong.


Well, BUB, you have some choices. Don't buy the game, but it sounds like you've already done that. Play it and enjoy it for what it is. Or make your own if you don't like other's interpretation of the subject matter.

Live with it. You are starting to sound like a annoying "Broken" record.



Hard Sarge -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 8:36:20 PM)

if the target areas/ target placements are wrong, I can try and make changes to those, I myself, can't do anything about the map they are sitting on

most of the placements so far being talked about, are what was there to start with, sites I put in, I tried to use Google Earth, and or other maps, sources, and then place them as close as I could based on other sites around them (which if the early site was wrong, it makes my placement even shakier)

I did get a lot of help from people who lived in some of these areas, and worked with them, to get those areas set up

plus as OB says about England, a big hassle we got is the sites them selfs, so some are shifted out of place, to make them show up, be targeted

I am willing to work on the data, I can't do anything about the map




KenchiSulla -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 8:51:56 PM)

Some parts are pretty accurate. Good enough for me. I don't think the team deserves this attitude.

Could it have been better? Yes. But then again, what or whoever, other then me, myself and I ever got to a state of perfection?

[8D]



Toby42 -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 8:54:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Some parts are pretty accurate. Good enough for me. I don't think the team deserves this attitude.

Could it have been better? Yes. But then again, what or whoever, other then me, myself and I ever got to a state of perfection?

[8D]


AMEN!!! to that...



JudgeDredd -> RE: The Map (10/15/2009 9:04:52 PM)

Ok - SireChaos bought the game. He's found something in it that bugs him. We've all done that. Is it minor to most other people? Probably. Is it major to some other people? Possibly.

The point is he's bought a game and he has a gripe with it. Personally I see it as the equivalent to rivet counting in a flight sim...but he's paid his money and something in it bugs him and he would like it fixed. To be honest here, suggesting the guy fixes it himself isn't the answer. It appears there are "issues" (major or minor to individuals) and that someone has a legitimate request to the devs to fix it.

Like I said, I would like other things to be looked as a priority over this...he would like this looked at.

So I think it should be dropped here and his request can be handled by the dev team. There's no point in beating anyone up over this...his request is as valid as anyone elses. There's nothing worse than spotting something in a game that annoys you...'cos you won't see past it.



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