air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (Full Version)

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gwgardner -> air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/17/2009 5:59:28 AM)

In my solo game I've had a sustained seazone assault against the North Sea, from approx Nov 39 to March 40. Have sunk approx 10 ships, including a couple of BBs and a CV. The attached screenshot shows that these results were not achieved with impunity. It's a heavy toll on the Luftwaffe. I haven't repaired any of the air units.



[image]local://upfiles/20372/8D73A86E6CA446369AC26B3D10EA34AA.jpg[/image]



Harbinger -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/17/2009 6:19:23 AM)

Yes, I've also noticed air units take damage during Sea Zone attacks. However, the damage dealt to the opposing naval units and the the damage received has always been the same, 1 point. While this does not concern me greatly (a strategic decision to be made) what does concern me is the impunity by which fleets in Sea Zones are susceptible to air attack.

Basically, fleets are defenseless......relying on only their own anti-air. This seems wrong, especially in zones that land based Air have the abiltiy to fly these Sea Zone attacks. A method by which a player might be able to allocate Air units to Sea Zone defense seems logical.

I will add that I have not played the Research for Naval units to its fullest potential yet. Nor for any other branch of Research for that matter. So, it could very well be that at the higher levels, Naval units may have devastating anti-air capabilities.



gwgardner -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/17/2009 6:48:04 AM)

Agreed on your points.

I would also like to see the AI doing 1 or both of these two things:

1) being smart about rotating fleets into a threatened sea zone;
2) using it's own air units in search and destroy missions against the enemy air forces which are assaulting a sea zone. (in the instance above, the British don't have the range yet to hit the attacking forces, but would if your idea were implemented)



cpdeyoung -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/17/2009 2:59:27 PM)

Does anyone think the problem here is that the AI is playing poorly? Pile as many squadrons of Luftwaffe as you want; they could not interfere with the Royal Navy interdicting a German operation against Norway.

This Luftwaffe assault, driving the Royal Navy from the North Sea, is about as far from reality as anything I have seen in the game. How did a desire to accurately model the Dunkirk and Crete situations morph into this completely ahistorical operation. The German air forces were not constructed to do this campaign. If they could have done it, they would have done it. I see a new house rule to disallow this sort of thing, and I am sure Michael will join me in the interest of historical accuracy.

Chuck



willgamer -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/17/2009 4:30:26 PM)

You guys crack me up! [:D]

I guess as long as he who can't be mentioned (hint: MtP) doesn't show up, it's ok to be critical of the naval game. [8|]

OK, whatever.... [;)]

@gwgardner- I'm not sure what your point is, you did many, many times more PP damage than you took.

@harbringer- the other problem being that when land based air is in range and there is no effective CAP, they should be far MORE devastating than they are now.

@cpdeyoung- pretty much agree with "This Luftwaffe assault, driving the Royal Navy from the North Sea, is about as far from reality as anything I have seen in the game". Does adding more sea zones to distinguish littoral waters sound familiar? [:D]



gwgardner -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/17/2009 5:12:56 PM)

Granted the North Sea shellacking is ahistorical, but I can't seen doing a Norway invasion any other way.

It's impossible to hug the Norwegian coast in the game, as the Germans did. If I sent a Narvik invasion force through the North Sea without first decimating the British and French Fleets, I may as well just sink the amphibious units myself.

Can't see a house rule here. Can't see how it would be fair to both sides. I have taken 50% losses to the Luftwaffe, which is going to be very costly to replace. The solution may indeed be more sea zones. Ideally a better naval and air AI.

Give me an example of a house rule for this, against the AI and/or against a human opponent.

And in a PBEM game, the human player is not going to leave that fleet as sitting ducks to be wiped out. Put a human player back in for the UK, and my Norwegian invasion would be very dicey indeed. A human player would also do some air to air search and destroy missions, if in range.



gwgardner -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/17/2009 5:18:29 PM)

My point in the post was to correct a statement I made in a previous post somewhere, that the air units in sea zone attacks take no damage.

Never fear, I and Chuck and Michael and many others have been vocal criticizers. I don't think Wastelands objects to that at all. It's such a good game, though, that the criticism can be offset by the good points, so I never feel like I'm being untoward, just 'constructive.'



cpdeyoung -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/17/2009 7:06:08 PM)

Oops, I didn't mean that to come across the way it seemed. My reaction was to the thought that air operations on the high seas were an option for the Germans. I believe they were not, at least not with the air forces they came into WW2 with.

The Norweigian operation was a huge gamble, one that it is surprising Hitler went along with. It was very very dicey. I think a "curious" event like the one for Crete is the answer here. If you have not come across it : the Germans are asked if they want to pay for the operation. If they choose to do it the paratroopers are dropped, a supply source is placed on the island, and the game continues. To try and get this done another way would be cumbersome. I think a similar event should be constructed for Narvik. This will take care of Gary's concerns without making the unlikely destruction of the French and British fleets a consequence. This can be combined with an Oslo event if needed.

I do want the 'simulators' among us to enjoy their historical campaigns without cluttering the basic game with difficult to implement rules.

Chuck



Mike Parker -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/18/2009 3:14:20 AM)

Here is some hard data.  I did this before the 1.6 patch, then with 1.6.  This is the 1.6 results very similar to pre 1.6.

I used the German Tactical Air forces to Naval Attack the North Sea.  I built them all up to 10 Strength and Level 2 Tech.  I had all the relevant countries on Human so I could control the conditions.  I did not change tech levels during the data collection on either the Tac Air or the Naval units.  I kept the North Sea clear of ships except for the UK so I would always be hitting UK ships with German Air.

I defined a Hit as any one of the three attacks a Tac air can make against a Naval Unit ending up hitting a target.  A miss is defined as not scoring any hits.

I ran 1000 attacks from Sept 1939 to Oct 1941

947 Attacks hit causing a point of damage to a UK Naval Vessel
53 Attacks resulted in no damage

Of the 947 Hits, I took a point of damage to the attacking air on 184
Of the 53 misses I never took any damage

So I inflicted 947 Naval Hits for 184 Air hits in return.

Unfortunately I did not count what types of units I hit (keeping track of 1000 attacks was enough!) but Submarines cost 13 Cruisers BB's and CV's even more.

So even if I assume all 947 hit SS's then that is 12311PP in repairs needed to the UK Fleet.  I took 184 hits in return for 2208 PP in repair bills on the German Air Force.

This is nearly a 6-1 advantage for air forces in a battle of attrition against Naval forces.  While its unfortunate that Air Forces are relegated to fighting a war of attrition, the rules as they exist just make it that way.  But with this level of advantage, it pretty much means that the Germans can make the UK choose between three very unpalatable choices.

1)  Go bankrupt repairing your Fleet
2)  Lose the entire Royal Navy
3)  Abandon the North Sea (Or any other Sea Zone.. and perhaps any two since there are hexs where a plane can attack two different zones)

During this test I had to F11 the UK enough PP to keep a fleet working.  947 hits is 94 CV's worth of damage with enough left over to give a BB a bad day.

I have already made my conclusions regarding this result.  I think they are fairly self-evident.



gwgardner -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/18/2009 4:13:14 AM)

interesting test, Mike.

isn't there another option for the UK? Contest the air. I haven't investigated that. Perhaps the Germans can stand back for the coast enough to stay out of range.

Perhaps what is needed is a defender's sea zone CAP, so that if the defender has fighters in range of a sea zone, they automatically provide anti-air.



Mike Parker -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/18/2009 5:02:05 AM)

I actually think having coastal sea zones and deep water sea zones combined with a much more violent air damage system would work.  Punishing Naval units for getting in close to the shore.  I would also like CAP missions over sea zones.

But we play with what we got.. currently its attrition that is very much in land based air's favour



WarHunter -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/18/2009 6:08:51 AM)

I find it interesting no one mentions the fact an Air unit can bomb a sea zone and then rebase to a new hex immediately afterward. You dont have to tie your air units to a single hex at all.
Try it, come to your own pros and cons of this Shoot and Scoot air doctrine. 



Mike Parker -> RE: air units DO take damage in seazone attacks (10/18/2009 11:49:41 PM)

Warhunter,

Everytime I see that I mean to mention it as a possible bug but I forget.  If you have noticed, if you decline to move after shooting and click off somewhere else.  You will no longer have the ability to rebase.  Its only after a Naval Attack as long as you still have focus on the unit.  So if you Naval attack and find nothing, you still might have 2 AP left.. if you do not click off the unit you can rebase, but if you click off the unit you cannot click back on it an rebase.

So I THINK this is likely an error.



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