food shortage again (Full Version)

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adamcs -> food shortage again (10/17/2009 3:02:43 PM)

Can someone please explain this:

I am with France and had a population around 190. I caused a coup in Poland and my population went up 220 but for some reason suddenly I had food shortage. 8 turns later my population was under 120!!!
My tax rate is on 9, NM went down -100 from 1000 in 8 turns, and no matter what I do with the military readiness everything is going the same direction. Amazingly, the other countries' food rate is above 3000, Austria even has an army of 1 million!!!

Is it possible to turn off this food shortage thing, just so irritating that it is so illogical.



Marshal Villars -> RE: food shortage again (10/17/2009 8:04:25 PM)

Adamcs,

I can't explain it, I can only say that I have noticed food issues as well, and am working to get this taken care of with the first patch which WCS can put it in. Please keep posting any issues you notice on food or feel free to contact me.

-V



adamcs -> RE: food shortage again (10/17/2009 8:31:09 PM)

Thank you Marshal.

Actually I played on the game mentioned above and my manpower went down two 1 (one) !!!! My army was reduced to stg like 60K (previously it was about 400-500K. According to the country details Austria didn't have money in the last 15 turns and the statistics said there was no army either. So I tried and declared war on her to see what would happen. Surprise surprise in the first battle suddenly half a million Austrian turned up against my depleted army. How? Where from? [&:]






Mus -> RE: food shortage again (10/17/2009 11:38:56 PM)

A population of 190 is massive.

You need to make sure you are properly focusing labor on food production to maintain a population that large, otherwise you get hit with heavy famine effects. Having several well developed provinces that can focus entirely on food production is important, and I would burn up some of that surplus population as quickly as I could in producing military units.

As long as you properly focus on farms, food production, etc. it is fairly easy to manage a population of around 140 and gets progressively harder above that IME. Using a high draft level, taking excess population out of less productive areas (mainly through building 2 pop cost units like infantry and militia) and developing several provinces as your food production centers with high farm levels and labor allocated purely to food development there should allow to you manage just fine.

Another thing that might be happening is you are just BARELY squeeking by with enough food, but you are right at the point where you are starting to develop waste. Suddenly you add another 30 to your population (190 to 220) but you add several provinces on top of whatever you were controlling before and all that new WASTE severely reduces your total food production. Again, this results in massive famine.

Expansion beyond a certain size has to be carefully planned for by developing courts to level 5 in several provinces or creating protectorates where that makes sense.

Villars,

I have seen your population plummet in several PBEMs. I don't believe this is due to an issue with the game, I just don't believe you are managing your food production/draft levels/military production properly at times.



adamcs -> RE: food shortage again (10/18/2009 8:58:53 AM)

Hi Mus,

It is certainly logical what you are saying. Still it is a bit weird that I have France and its population (190) with enough food. Then I got Poland and extra 30 population and we are starving. How come? Poland was starving before? And if Poland starving why am I losing population in Paris???? Five months later France + Poland population 120 total and still starving. Another 6 months and France+Poland population under 80, still starvation, the army is halved. Can you explain that only with the waste?

Before I finished this game I declared war on Austria. That time Austria was about quarter of my size and the army they sent on me was over half a million I guess there were some more in reserve in the back country. The population was stg like 100 for Austria. How could Austria afford such an enourmos army? I couldn't. With an area of half of Europe and maybe the richest parts of Europe my population was under 60-80 and going down rapidly unstoppable, no army ... well don't tell me that's realistic.

But one thing is sure what you have just said, I have to be very careful with getting too big. But when you play France that's the main point[;)]

Another question: is it any good to use province or trade expert or both?



Mus -> RE: food shortage again (10/18/2009 9:07:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: adamcs

Can you explain that only with the waste?


Probably. Go to your economy tab along the bottom third of the screen. Open it and scroll down until you get to the waste report. Take a screenshot of that and post it here or just let us know what kind of waste you have. It is entirely possible that taking Poland threw you into massive waste, maybe cutting your food production in half or worse while increasing your population by 30 points. Your food production was probably just barely enough to avoid starvation as it was, so the result is mass extinction.



adamcs -> RE: food shortage again (10/18/2009 9:58:05 AM)

Unfortunately I've finished that game and started a new one, but I believe you, because that sounds logical. But my problem is not that.
If I have food production enough with lets say 180 population and I have 220 obviously 40 will starve. But when I get down to 80 why are they still starving? I know the answer is the waste. But by the time I have enough courts and everything else I'll lose three quarters of my population.
And also if Paris has enough to eat we get Poland that throws us into waste why Paris is starving then?
Anyway, so the solution is to have enough courts against starvation not farms.



Marshal Villars -> RE: food shortage again (10/18/2009 6:04:24 PM)

A good possibility in this case Mus.



morganbj -> RE: food shortage again (10/19/2009 2:06:45 PM)

I always make sure that I have excess food, because it is the most volitile resource a player has.  For example, I've found that a crop failure can do pretty much the same thing as you describe for five or six turns, even when there's a good stockpile of food present.  Once you have a food shortage, all kinds of other things are affected that untimately cause food to decline more.  It does finally bottom out though.

The point is that you should watch food production very closely.  I look at it almost every turn.  Don't trust the numbers you see on the province screens.  Instead, go to the supply tab and see what's actually being consumed, and then plan from there.

Mus's adivce and conclusions are pretty sound.



adamcs -> RE: food shortage again (10/19/2009 7:17:40 PM)

Thank you Morgan. I think you are right I wasn't paying enough attention to food consumption. I guess it is now my primary issue in every game.

And thank you Mus, too.



Anthropoid -> RE: food shortage again (10/20/2009 3:30:08 AM)

If you consider the actual effects of famines-=-even in some parts of the world into the present-=-in a pre-industrial, pre-canning, pre-refrigeration world, the fact that food is one of the most volatile commodities in the game is not so unreasonable. I have not quite got to that stage yet, but I've heard some of the beta testers who have amassed really massive Empires (1/3 of whole map?) say that food is the single most important resource in large empires for these sorts of reasons. The explanations that Mus outlines sound totally plausible and likely given my knowledge of the game engine.

One of the beauties of this engine is that it manages to give the player quite a bit of control, but not total control.



terje439 -> RE: food shortage again (10/20/2009 12:33:52 PM)

Remember that waste is extreme after a while.
I do not recall the formula by heart, but believe it is something like this;
30 provinces for free, every province after that, +3% waste in ALL your provinces (unless court is high enough), remove all provinces with court lvl 7 or higher from this number.

I am guessing that the Polish provinces does not have 7+ courts, and that you are now in the vicinity of some 50 provinces, that makes 50-30=20 provinces x3% = 60% reduced income in all brackets in all provinces unless it has a court lvl of 5 or higher in which case it is not affected.



evwalt -> RE: food shortage again (10/20/2009 7:27:35 PM)

I believe it is +2% waste per province and you don't count (or suffer any waste) in provinces with level 5 courts or higher.

Note: provinces with higher levels of culture suffer less waste but I am not sure how much and its doesn't affect anything outside of that province.



Ironclad -> RE: food shortage again (10/20/2009 10:08:59 PM)

The 2% is for core provinces, but its 4% for conquered/protectorates and conquered need 7 courts not 5. (Protectorates are not counted but suffer the effects) You need to bear this in mind when reading the waste update in the economy report.

Exempting an individual province from the effects requires 5 culture or 7 courts for core provinces, but this only halves the effect (-2%) in conquered) and the latter need 7 culture or 9 courts to totally eliminate it.

So its cheaper in terms of resources to spend your court/culture building efforts re waste on core provinces rather than conquered ones.



terje439 -> RE: food shortage again (10/20/2009 10:13:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ironclad

The 2% is for core provinces, but its 4% for conquered/protectorates and conquered need 7 courts not 5. (Protectorates are not counted but suffer the effects) You need to bear this in mind when reading the waste update in the economy report.

Exempting an individual province from the effects requires 5 culture or 7 courts for core provinces, but this only halves the effect (-2%) in conquered) and the latter need 7 culture or 9 courts to totally eliminate it.

So its cheaper in terms of resources to spend your court/culture building efforts re waste on core provinces rather than conquered ones.



Sure, I thought a core province with lvl 5 court did not experience waste but still counted towards the total, a lvl 7 court does not experience waste nor does it count towards the 30 province total ?



Ironclad -> RE: food shortage again (10/20/2009 10:52:35 PM)

No its the other way around. Any core province with 5 courts is excluded from the count of total provinces for the overall waste calculation but that province still suffers the effect. It needs 7 courts or 5 cultures to be exempt from the effect. Same principle for conquered but higher levels required as noted above.






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