battlegroup and units dissappearing (Full Version)

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nerraduk -> battlegroup and units dissappearing (10/20/2009 7:06:49 PM)

Hi playing germans on grand campaign day 2 (7th) turn 2 after movement execute.
1 battlegroup that did not move has vanished and a number of units have completely dissapeared from battlegroups that did not move. 1 battle group lost both anti tank guns and another lost 1 smg machine gun team and 1 8cm morter team these teams had been intact at the end of the previous round of battles.
This is the vanilla version no patch.??????????????



RD Oddball -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (10/20/2009 11:20:57 PM)

Sounds like it since a similar issue had been addressed already.



Pz Leader -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (10/25/2009 2:45:37 AM)

RD, I presume you mean that this issue was fixed in 5.50.07b patch because I am using 5.50.03b patch and experienced the same thing on June 6, turn 4.



RD Oddball -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (10/26/2009 7:53:42 PM)

Yes I do mean it was fixed by 5.50.07b.



[GD]Vernichter -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (7/28/2010 7:29:27 PM)

I am running version 5.50.09b and I have a similar bug! I lost several units between Strategic Turn 1 and 2 on June 6th. All units in question had been deployed in the previous Turn but had taken no damage (several units were never under fire). The rest of turn 1 they were still in the active roster of their BGs. At the beginning of turn 2 they were gone...

Some information about my game:

Type: Hosting H2H Grand Campaign (I am the german player)
manually enabled retreat option in campaign.txt (both players)

Difficulty: Line

Units in question: several guns, at least two mortar teams, a tank...

Is there any way to fix this? Also, I don't want to lose my game.




davidss -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/26/2011 5:30:00 AM)

Hi,
My opponent (Steiner) is reporting that he is missing units from his Force Pool that have not been hit or damaged.
Can you please share any info that might help explain this, or look into seeing if this is still an issue in TLD?

note: we are using the GT 2.0 mod and the Objective Bayeux custom Campaign

Thanks for any help with this

david

btw ... is this a similar issue in CC5, that could be corrected by saving the game after each battle?



davidss -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/26/2011 11:51:00 PM)

I was just looking through the fpools.txt file and noticed that some Teams get progressively less amounts available as time passes.
Notice the numbers below ... the five numbers in each day represent the amounts of this Team available in the Force Pool/BG for each difficultly level (top is green, bottom is elite).
Therefore it may seem like teams are disappearing, but if fact just less are being made available, due to the way the data has been configured.
It's more noticeable for players that name their teams.
I don't like this way of simulating the depletion of units available ... I think a better way would be to increase the Allied side and leave the Axis side with the same values for all days, or at least never less. This way, the greater re-enforcement capabilities of the Allied side are simulated ... and the Axis player doesn't have named/undamaged units disappearing.

The next mod I work on will put less unit amounts in the Force Pool, but allow the re-enforcement feature to be used. thus producing similar overall numbers, but through the re-enforcement feature. I'll also give the Allied side one more re-enforcement quantity than the Axis side ... thus simulating the greater Allied presence in the area.

Example: German Command Team
June 6
9
10
11
11
11
June 7
7
7
8
10
11
June 8
6
7
7
9
11
June 9
4
6
7
9
11

note to Steiner: this doesn't explain the Stug that went missing on you, since it has the same quantities for all days. I have hit it with a least one air strikes, multiple piat rounds, Med Mortar rounds,and perhaps a tank/ATG round ... maybe the crew count just dropped below a certain level :)



Andrew Williams -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/27/2011 2:39:04 AM)

david this is not quite correct.

Numbers will not deplete because they show a lesser amount as time passes.

This will only effect reinforcement levels (not enabled in stock tLD)  and an operation that starts on those later dates.

eg if you create a custom op. starting after 6 June your BG will start with fewer command teams as shown in your example above.

The depletion effect will only appear if there is a change in team class type eg  stuart to Sherman or sherman to Stuart or DD to sherman etc

if the team class types stay the same you will not see any change



davidss -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/27/2011 3:31:37 AM)

OK, thanks Andrew for explaining that ... appreciate your input.

Also, when you say "depletion effect will only appear if there is a change in team class" ... do you mean:
1.when the player makes changes to the team types in the Active Roster
2.or when a team type is replaced with another type because of fpool.txt data ... such as a DD Sherman not available, but another type is made available ... such as a regular sherman

A. another question: Is it possible (while making changes in your Active Roster) to loose a team? Let's say you have a German Command team and the quantity is less in the day you just entered. Then you remove the one in your active roster ... which moves it into the force pool ... will it disappear if the number in your force pool increases above the number of that team that is available for that day?
On a similar note ... I do recall having Centaur in my Active Roster on Day 7. I wanted to put it back in the Force Pool in order to use another tank type ... and it just disappeared when I clicked it out of the Active Roster. I didn't realized it then, but that's because it's not available in fpools.txt on Day 7.8.9



davidss -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/27/2011 7:17:59 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

Numbers will not deplete because they show a lesser amount as time passes.


It seems people are noticing missing units, especially after advancing to a next day turn. So maybe these lesser amounts for units in the Force Pool (as days progress) is causing the problem?



Andrew Williams -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/27/2011 7:29:51 AM)

2. is the correct answer

The second part of your post is correct

it's a case of use it or lose it.

if you remove a team class type that should no longer be available...whammo... it's gone.



davidss -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/27/2011 8:00:11 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

2. is the correct answer

The second part of your post is correct

it's a case of use it or lose it.

if you remove a team class type that should no longer be available...whammo... it's gone.


Thanks for your help



STIENER -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/28/2011 12:16:58 AM)

gents.....
this isnt the case were seeing here..use it or lose it.
were losing squads and vehicles that were perfectly fine from the active roster when we go to the next turn in the strat move.
[ note to Davidss...the stug was fine..full crew etc....your airstrikes have been doing nothing. ]

in one turn i lost....
basly 12 ss/25 a flamethrower team that had lost 1 man out of 2. the team was a full 2 man team and not in combat and not even seen by davids troops, until the game ended, then it came up as 1 man short then on the new strat turn, it was gone.

Bennyville 192/21 i lost a command tank

Colombelle 857/346 i lost a command squad

Bayeux 902 lehr i lost a shreak team.

in the next strat turn i lost the stug i had been using for 2 full days on the Cruelly map........see above.

these are all teams i know i had because i name my squads so i can easily tell if i have lost a squad or not. and were using the latest patch.



emperor peter -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/28/2011 4:39:37 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

gents.....
this isnt the case were seeing here..use it or lose it.
were losing squads and vehicles that were perfectly fine from the active roster when we go to the next turn in the strat move.
[ note to Davidss...the stug was fine..full crew etc....your airstrikes have been doing nothing. ]

in one turn i lost....
basly 12 ss/25 a flamethrower team that had lost 1 man out of 2. the team was a full 2 man team and not in combat and not even seen by davids troops, until the game ended, then it came up as 1 man short then on the new strat turn, it was gone.

Bennyville 192/21 i lost a command tank

Colombelle 857/346 i lost a command squad

Bayeux 902 lehr i lost a shreak team.

in the next strat turn i lost the stug i had been using for 2 full days on the Cruelly map........see above.

these are all teams i know i had because i name my squads so i can easily tell if i have lost a squad or not. and were using the latest patch.


This happens to me as well regularly, on average about 1 team per BG per turn gets lost when it shouldn't, in both TLD and WaR, both with the latest beta patch.



STIENER -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/29/2011 1:13:06 AM)

Oddball
whats the prognosis.....bug or no bug?? [&:]



davidss -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/29/2011 5:21:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

Numbers will not deplete because they show a lesser amount as time passes.


This is a contradiction for the game's basic logic though ... unless programmers have made provision for it somehow.
If these units are disappearing, it makes sense that this may be a possible cause

Question for people noticing missing units ... have you been moving units out of your Active Roster, to get different ones?



emperor peter -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/29/2011 5:42:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: davidss



Question for people noticing missing units ... have you been moving units out of your Active Roster, to get different ones?




Yes, I rarely go with the default unit selection.



davidss -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/29/2011 6:17:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mystic_Snake

quote:

ORIGINAL: davidss



Question for people noticing missing units ... have you been moving units out of your Active Roster, to get different ones?




Yes, I rarely go with the default unit selection.


Thanks for your input.
The point I'm getting at is ... maybe having the force pool numbers of some units being reduced as time passes, doesn't cause units to disappear when the total count of that unit in an Active Roster and Force Pool totals more than that specific allotment ... but it might cause a unit to disappear if it's taken out of the Active Roster. Moving it into the Force Pool from the Active Roster increases the Force Pool total of that unit ... and if it exceeds the new day's lesser amount ... maybe the game just gets rid of it, in order to make the numbers match (align).
This is just an idea anyway ... and if it is the problem, then the easy fix would be to never decrease the amount of a unit in the force pool data as days progress

Now that I think about it more ... Steiner had one battle where he said a tank went missing, so we backed out and reselected our units. Then upon start of the battle ... it was missing again. We did this again, and then the tank was back in the Active Roster.
So maybe it does have something to do with moving units into the force pool ... thus making the number too high for the daily count of that unit ... hmmm



emperor peter -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/29/2011 9:29:57 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: davidss

Moving it into the Force Pool from the Active Roster increases the Force Pool total of that unit ... and if it exceeds the new day's lesser amount ... maybe the game just gets rid of it, in order to make the numbers match (align).
This is just an idea anyway ... and if it is the problem, then the easy fix would be to never decrease the amount of a unit in the force pool data as days progress



That's a poor fix, because a unit being removed from the active roster loses it's medals, kills and most importantly it's experience gained in battle.



Andrew Williams -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/29/2011 11:24:24 AM)

As I understand it that would only happen if the team type had changed not just the number available at that date.

(that is not to say there isn't a bug in the logic)





STIENER -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/29/2011 3:21:23 PM)

david
the tank was in my active force pool each time i selected it but disapeared when we went to the battle map. i finally changed the slot that i picked the tank to and then it showed up on the battle map.

also the above discussion about moving units out of the active roster doesnt explain the last stug i have been using all game. i never moved it out of the active roster and back in again. it just disapeared in the new turn as the rest did above.

andrew....do you work for matrix??



Andrew Williams -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/29/2011 7:12:56 PM)

quote:

the tank was in my active force pool each time i selected it but disapeared when we went to the battle map


that's the first time you've mentioned that



STIENER -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/30/2011 12:40:13 AM)

one issue at a time i guess. but ya, that issue / bug appeared last time we played too.

andrew...you didnt answer my question. do you work for matrix?

so, is all this been / being reported to the lads at matrix HQ?



davidss -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/30/2011 3:17:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mystic_Snake


quote:

ORIGINAL: davidss

Moving it into the Force Pool from the Active Roster increases the Force Pool total of that unit ... and if it exceeds the new day's lesser amount ... maybe the game just gets rid of it, in order to make the numbers match (align).
This is just an idea anyway ... and if it is the problem, then the easy fix would be to never decrease the amount of a unit in the force pool data as days progress



That's a poor fix, because a unit being removed from the active roster loses it's medals, kills and most importantly it's experience gained in battle.


Hi,
after re-reading these posts ... I see now that the problem is dealing mostly with units in the Active Roster that have not been put back into the Force Pool by the player. Units are going Missing In Action from the Active Roster, upon return to the next battle to be fought ... by the same BG Active Roster

sorry for any confusion on my part ... it's sometimes hard to envision what's going on from the other side of a H2H battle :)



STIENER -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/30/2011 3:50:53 AM)

David
you lost me? so were all talking about 2 different issues? so do we start a new post for our issues?



davidss -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/30/2011 5:40:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: STIENER

David
you lost me? so were all talking about 2 different issues? so do we start a new post for our issues?

hahaha ... I thought I was trying to clarify your position

Nevertheless, the main topic which is agreed upon, is ... units seem to be disappearing without reasonable cause

Let's review the different types of cases reported as disappearing units

Categories of events regarding disappearing units : for the following example we'll use a Panzer IV
Event=disappearing Panzer IV

1.Event happens during turn before a day change. Panzer IV fought in a battle and was not hit/damaged. Next time that specific Panzer IV was to enter a battle ... it wasn't in the Active Roster

2.Event happens on turn after day change. Panzer IV fought in a battle and was not hit/damaged. Next time that specific Panzer IV was to enter a battle ... it wasn't in the Active Roster

3.Panzer IV was in Active Roster, but when battle started ... Panzer IV was not on the battle field. Exited battle and restarted same battle, but moved the Panzer IV to a different slot in the Active Roster ... when battle started, Panzer IV was present on the Battlefield.

4.Panzer IV (with battle history) wasn't in Active Roster during first turn of new day, but was replaced with a Panther G.

5.Panzer IV was removed from Active Roster by player, but the Force Pool amount did not increase ... thus a Panzer IV disappeared.

I suggest assigning one of these category descriptions when reporting a unit disappearing
Example: Category 4.

Then it may be easier to understand what happened during each indecent.



davidss -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/30/2011 6:52:53 AM)

Things to remember to look at when reporting disappearing units

1.After the end of a battle ... look at units and their health/damage. If a unit is damaged in some way ... it may not return to next battle
2.Did units disappear during a regular turn, or during the first turn after a day change
3.What was the unit that disappeared replaced with
4.Was the disappeared unit removed from the Active Roster, but the Force Pool number of this unit type increased by one
5.Was the disappeared unit removed from the Active Roster, and not reflected in the Force Pool amount for that type of unit.



STIENER -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/30/2011 8:46:20 PM)

very eloquent DavidSS [:)]

and of course the other interesting thing is its only happening to the german BG's as far as i know?



davidss -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (1/31/2011 11:53:33 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RD_Oddball

Sounds like it since a similar issue had been addressed already.

Hi,
how was this similar issue addressed last time ...

and, can you please give us an update regarding concerns about this issue, mentioned here recently

Thanks



Andrew Williams -> RE: battlegroup and units dissappearing (2/15/2011 12:26:02 AM)

Steiner

What do you think now that steve has been through your saved games and sent you a report that your losses were due to damage and/or injuries??



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