Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (Full Version)

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JohnDillworth -> Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/20/2009 9:42:11 PM)

Hi,
I am playing as the Allies against the AI and I am in March 1943. It seems that the AI has an unlimited number of fighters and I just can't keep any aircraft in the air in Burma. I have depleted every squadron of P-40's and Hurricanes no matter what the experience. Each turn the AI is able to put hundreds of fighters on high level sweeps. Even through I shoot them down at a 5-1 or 10-1 ratio, after a month my replacements can not keep up. I am bombing the airfields at night but it is little use. Is it historically accurate that the the Japanese ahd complete air control over the Burma theater and that the Allies could sustain no active air presence in the area?

Has anybody else experience this? Does anyone know the Japanese losses in the theater?
thanks



khyberbill -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/20/2009 9:46:13 PM)

I dont think the game is historically accurate when you play the AI.



oldman45 -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/20/2009 9:58:33 PM)

John, what level are you playing on? I play on historical and while 42 is a bear by 43 I have worn them down, night bombings and also their pilot losses.



JohnDillworth -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/20/2009 10:11:14 PM)

quote:

John, what level are you playing on? I play on historical and while 42 is a bear by 43 I have worn them down, night bombings and also their pilot losses.


Historical. March 42. I have tried to where them down but they have me outnumbered by about 5-1. I have not been able to descern a drop in pilot level yet and not Tony's are starting to show up. I am night bombing and I have withdrawn all of my firghters because I have no more replacements. The only tactic that is working is to send a single AKL a day into the region. The AI will send 150 fighters escorting 12 bombers and sink the freighter. This gives me a chance to rebuild the airfileds a bit and get my aircraft out



oldman45 -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/20/2009 10:19:28 PM)

Maybe its a script item, meaning what ever script you got delt at start is different from my game, because I am not running into that many planes, and its May 30th in my game. They have me bottled up in Java for the time being but I have yet to get the big influx of B-17's in the US. Once those squadrons get to the DEI I will start pounding the surronding airfields. I have already decided that at least 4 squadrons will go to India and start working over the burma AF's. If I remember correctly, it took me almost a month of bombing before I could make any real inroads in the DEI. (game before that patch) I would expect that will be the same in this game.



John Lansford -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/20/2009 10:42:27 PM)

It's April '42 in my game and the Oscars are as thick as ants over Chittagong and Dacca right now.  I've seen as many as 70 Oscars in one sweep mission, and then there were 20-30 more escorting the Lilys right behind them.  None of my level bomber squadrons can penetrate their CAP over Akyab, and my fighter squadrons trying to defend my bases get overwhelmed even when I've got 5 fighter squadrons at Chittagong and another two at Diamond Port.

Giving the AI some "help" to compensate for a lack of creative planning is one thing, but just handing them unlimited airframes (not to mention the other advantages such as no airbase restrictions, LCU transfers allowed, etc) means an attempt at running the Allies in a historical manner simply isn't going to work.



oldman45 -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/20/2009 11:05:23 PM)

Thats the point I was trying to get at, I don't have Oscars fighting in Burma but you do and I am at the end of May.



Barneyrubb90 -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/20/2009 11:31:07 PM)

I am up to mid September '43 playing Quiet China very hard.  I have captured Mandalay down to Rangoon but have same issue with almost no ability to sustain fighters in the area.  Getting sweeps of 100+ and have even seen 200+.

Trying to pool my aircraft in Mandalay and push the bases back on the ground.

It is very challenging.



treespider -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/20/2009 11:35:41 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Barneyrubb90

I am up to mid September '43 playing Quiet China very hard.  I have captured Mandalay down to Rangoon but have same issue with almost no ability to sustain fighters in the area.  Getting sweeps of 100+ and have even seen 200+.

Trying to pool my aircraft in Mandalay and push the bases back on the ground.

It is very challenging.




[:D]



wdolson -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 12:14:09 AM)

One thing to watch is your pilot training levels.  If you keep feeding in new pilots fresh out of training into your front line units, you will dilute your fighter units and they will become bait for the enemy.  With high experience fighter units and concentrated sweeps of enemy airfields, you can wear down the AI, but it takes a concentrated effort.

Bill



JohnDillworth -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 12:24:22 AM)

quote:

Maybe its a script item, meaning what ever script you got delt at start is different from my game, because I am not running into that many planes, and its May 30th in my game. They have me bottled up in Java for the time being but I have yet to get the big influx of B-17's in the US. Once those squadrons get to the DEI I will start pounding the surronding airfields. I have already decided that at least 4 squadrons will go to India and start working over the burma AF's. If I remember correctly, it took me almost a month of bombing before I could make any real inroads in the DEI. (game before that patch) I would expect that will be the same in this game.


Don't think it is a script. This might be stricktly a Burma thing, not DEI. Burma has lots of good fighter fields for the AI. Bombbers are not as numerous



JohnDillworth -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 12:27:22 AM)

quote:

One thing to watch is your pilot training levels. If you keep feeding in new pilots fresh out of training into your front line units, you will dilute your fighter units and they will become bait for the enemy. With high experience fighter units and concentrated sweeps of enemy airfields, you can wear down the AI, but it takes a concentrated effort.


Not a problem so far. The groups have an experience in th 70's and I have about 20 aces plus one guy with an experience level of 95. I have one group with 5 planes left and 193 kills and still they keep comming. Just gonna have to knowck the bases out by land.



Central Blue -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 3:06:42 AM)

My experience is the same as oldman45's. I am glad I am not having your experience. I have bombed Akyab airfield to dust and retaken Cox's Bazaar with nary a sign of the AI's vaunted aircraft numbers.

I do wonder what the trigger is that causes what you are experiencing. I'ld be happy to share if I had an answer. I don't think it is about training. Unlike Oldman45, I didn't put up a fight in Burma, and pulled back to the Chittagong to Ledo line early on. Where I have fighters, it is generally a squadron of Curtises and Hurricanes except for the airfields (Comilla and Chittagong) dedicated to bombing Akyab that might have three or four fighter squadrons.

I have retaken Milne Bay and Port Moresby as of early '43 with little sign of dreaded fighters and bombers from the AI. And I sort of expected a slug fest when I used my carriers to cover the landings. Nada.

I am also pummeling Lunga with no sign of serious resistance. I suppose I will see his aircraft at some point. Maybe they are all training up in the home islands.

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

It's April '42 in my game and the Oscars are as thick as ants over Chittagong and Dacca right now.  I've seen as many as 70 Oscars in one sweep mission, and then there were 20-30 more escorting the Lilys right behind them.  None of my level bomber squadrons can penetrate their CAP over Akyab, and my fighter squadrons trying to defend my bases get overwhelmed even when I've got 5 fighter squadrons at Chittagong and another two at Diamond Port.

Giving the AI some "help" to compensate for a lack of creative planning is one thing, but just handing them unlimited airframes (not to mention the other advantages such as no airbase restrictions, LCU transfers allowed, etc) means an attempt at running the Allies in a historical manner simply isn't going to work.





oldman45 -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 6:34:43 AM)

On my last turn I took a look at the forces the AI has around the DEI from the airfields around Singapore to Makasar(SP). Assuming the intel is close there are over 400 Bombers and 300 fighters. I noticed that there are the carrier squadrons from the carriers that were lost in the are flying combat missions. I still have not seen any Oscars anywhere. Nate's and Zero's are the most common.

In the Burma theater there are approx 200 bombers and about the same number of fighters spread out from Thailand to Mandalay. They are Sally's, Betty's and Nicks with some Zero's. The average strike is 30+ bombers with 30 or so fighters. Some times a sweep of 30+ fighters comes through. I am having a bit of a struggle keeping fighters in the front lines but there are several American squadrons due so that should help.




vlcz -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 8:28:35 AM)

From my exp AI has a virtually unending pool of aircraft, but the pilots really sucks once you kill them in sufficient numbers, they can really hit nothing.

Just finished the burma reconquest (nov 42), my common practice is occupying a new (nearer) base only when 7+ size and full of AA, and lots of ENG, then moving almost all fighters there, retiring to lick my wounds if im on the receiving side, repeat until superiority is achieved.... Worked superb in the frontier and down to akyab... Now receiving HUGE air attacks at rangoon.

In non-burma areas the tonic seems the same (quicker than expected AI rebuilds) but can be keeped down by dayly bombing of airfields, I have 4 B-17 and 4 B26 groups bombing rabaul at 5000' (50% rest) from 7 months ago now, with rotating escort/sweep fighter groups.



JohnDillworth -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 10:11:57 AM)

quote:

Akyab airfield


I have taken it and that is when the madness started.



JohnDillworth -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 10:15:29 AM)

quote:

My experience is the same as oldman45's. I am glad I am not having your experience. I have bombed Akyab airfield to dust and retaken Cox's Bazaar with nary a sign of the AI's vaunted aircraft numbers.

I do wonder what the trigger is that causes what you are experiencing. I'ld be happy to share if I had an answer. I don't think it is about training. Unlike Oldman45, I didn't put up a fight in Burma, and pulled back to the Chittagong to Ledo line early on. Where I have fighters, it is generally a squadron of Curtises and Hurricanes except for the airfields (Comilla and Chittagong) dedicated to bombing Akyab that might have three or four fighter squadrons.


SW PAcific is now quite sice I own everything and am gearing up to invade Rubal in a month or so. AI has pretty much given up the SW Pacific as Rubal is it's only remaining base. PErhaps the AI sent all the Oscars to Burma becuase they have nowhere elese to base them.

I have retaken Milne Bay and Port Moresby as of early '43 with little sign of dreaded fighters and bombers from the AI. And I sort of expected a slug fest when I used my carriers to cover the landings. Nada.

I am also pummeling Lunga with no sign of serious resistance. I suppose I will see his aircraft at some point. Maybe they are all training up in the home islands.



m10bob -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 10:41:20 AM)

One of the valuable things about China is that any activity they cause against Japan, will tie up Japanese forces, land or air. If you are neglecting this important area, you can expect Japan to use its' forces west, (the Burma area), as reinforcements.


Somewhat related:

I simply cannot imagine playing a "quiet China", in a game about WW2 in this theatre, since it was the original battlefield of the entire war.



Andy Mac -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 1:16:47 PM)

Remember the AI has different triggers sometimes taking a specific base will trigger a response sometimes its other bases



xj900uk -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 1:34:24 PM)

In RL the JAAF concentrated its forces in Burma & China, there were loads of Oscars & LBA's present in '42 and the first half of '43.  Then a load of them were transferred to the SW Pacific to try and shore up the crumbling Rabaul cauldron,  most of the pilots were by now inexperienced and had no training or navigation training of flying over large bodies of water - most of them never even got there! 



JohnDillworth -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 1:44:47 PM)

quote:

One of the valuable things about China is that any activity they cause against Japan, will tie up Japanese forces, land or air. If you are neglecting this important area, you can expect Japan to use its' forces west, (the Burma area), as reinforcements.


Somewhat related:

I simply cannot imagine playing a "quiet China", in a game about WW2 in this theatre, since it was the original battlefield of the entire war.


Yeas, I am playing quite China, I presume that is what is causing the problem. As for playing China I have no interest in it. It is like playing a WW I strategic game. "Lets mass our armies for the big push over the top"! 1 hex! thanks, but no thanks. If the IA wants to paly a-historical I can accomidate. All those fighters at Pearl are doing nothing but training! And I always wanted an excuse to use that Falklands base. I am shipping the 7th Air Force to Burma



Central Blue -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 2:09:02 PM)

Under the circumstances, I think I will continue to let him sit in Akyab and try to figure out how to supply his forces there. Might as well let it hang on the vine till I have the wherewithal to get to Rangoon anyway.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Remember the AI has different triggers sometimes taking a specific base will trigger a response sometimes its other bases




Central Blue -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 2:27:56 PM)

I am enjoying my time in China. He has ground up a number of units trying to take Naning, Ichang, and Kweisu. So my troops are training up nicely there. I have thrown him out of Kukong and Tsaiotso, and I expect to have Wuchow back in a couple of weeks. If he shows up with large forces, we can always run for the hills and see if there are weaknesses to exploit elsewhere.

He is in the process of turning Chengchow into a graveyard for several more of his units. And since he is so invested there, I will make another dash to Tatung to see what kind of forces show up this time. So far, I have been able to hold anything where I can get a numerical one to one with him.

One of the nice features of managing the large land war is that you don't have to keep so much of an eye on it.

quote:

ORIGINAL: m10bob

One of the valuable things about China is that any activity they cause against Japan, will tie up Japanese forces, land or air. If you are neglecting this important area, you can expect Japan to use its' forces west, (the Burma area), as reinforcements.


Somewhat related:

I simply cannot imagine playing a "quiet China", in a game about WW2 in this theatre, since it was the original battlefield of the entire war.




JohnDillworth -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 2:49:37 PM)

quote:

original battlefield of the entire war

Name of the game is "War in the Pacific" not "Land war in Asia"



oldman45 -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 4:10:24 PM)

I let the AI have its way with China till I come through Indochina to get to Hong Kong. I look over the map from time to time but do very little.

Since I have not lost Akyab to the AI, perhaps thats why I have not seen some of the planes that John has been hit with.



John Lansford -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 4:23:31 PM)

I'm playing "quiet China" as well, I wonder if that's where all the fighters are coming from.  Betty airstrikes in China are almost always unescorted, so maybe the fighters transferred to Burma?



JohnDillworth -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 5:38:31 PM)

quote:

Since I have not lost Akyab to the AI, perhaps thats why I have not seen some of the planes that John has been hit with.

It is when I took Akyab that the trouble started. I attempted a parachute invasion of Pomme (got off a single 1-1 attack and then the AI reinforced) and then it really went nuts.



m10bob -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 6:57:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

One of the valuable things about China is that any activity they cause against Japan, will tie up Japanese forces, land or air. If you are neglecting this important area, you can expect Japan to use its' forces west, (the Burma area), as reinforcements.


Somewhat related:

I simply cannot imagine playing a "quiet China", in a game about WW2 in this theatre, since it was the original battlefield of the entire war.


Yeas, I am playing quite China, I presume that is what is causing the problem. As for playing China I have no interest in it. It is like playing a WW I strategic game. "Lets mass our armies for the big push over the top"! 1 hex! thanks, but no thanks. If the IA wants to paly a-historical I can accomidate. All those fighters at Pearl are doing nothing but training! And I always wanted an excuse to use that Falklands base. I am shipping the 7th Air Force to Burma





Well....you got your answer, pilgrim......[;)]



m10bob -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 7:00:40 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

original battlefield of the entire war

Name of the game is "War in the Pacific" not "Land war in Asia"



[image]local://upfiles/7909/9544867252324ECABAF2C9D03C7587D4.jpg[/image]



JohnDillworth -> RE: Air war in Burma nd the AI's unlimited fighters (10/21/2009 7:54:01 PM)

maybe so, guess they put in scenario 6 just for me, everybody else wants to play China



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