Gustav Line.... Again (Full Version)

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mgp104 -> Gustav Line.... Again (10/21/2009 6:43:29 PM)

Hi,

I posted a while ago about trying to break the Gustav Line, I've changed tactics since then, concentrating on destroying every railyard, port and oil storage facility in the Avalanche area. After about 3 weeks of work I have just about done this, and since most of the air forces in the theatre are still being given Avalanche mandatory targetting restrictions I thought I'd try to break the Gustav Line again.

At the minute (early November '43) there are 7 units holding the Gustav Line: 2 parachute, 3 panzergrenadier and 2 panzer. I have started hitting them with everything I have (including converting the rather feeble Baltimore's, Havoc's and Boston's into B24D's). I have managed to get them down to an average combat strength of 370 and an average disruption of 46.

A couple of days ago I got an Allies attack message at the end of the turn that gave a combat strength and disruption value, does this mean that having tried an attack the invisible Allied unit has taken this amount of damage? The attacks seem to have failed as all German units are still holding the line.

After these attacks I continued to hit the troops, and they got even weaker yet there was no further attack from the Allied troops. Do you have to wait a while after a failed attack for the attacking forces to recover?

My final question is: is it worth me continuing to attack the Gustav Line in an attempt to break it far earlier that in reality? Especially since XV command are not restricted to attacking Avalanche targets and could be attacking targets in Eastern Europe.



TechSgt -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/22/2009 12:49:45 AM)

MGP104;
These are long mini-battles. Be patient.
The historical breakthrough was in May '44 and the Allies took Rome on 5 June '44.

The Allied ground attacks will cause the Axis units to retreat. If no reserve unit can fill the spot, you have the "beginning" of the breakthrough.
So don't forget to disrupt > 50%, any unit not on the line, also.

I have found little correlation between historical ground attacks and historical offenses. Invasions, yes.


Worth continuing to attack the Gustav line?
IMHO: With the XV AF. No! Get ready for the "Big Week" era.
With the XII AF and Med AF. Why not? With mandatory targetting, what else can they do?

TS



kaybayray -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/22/2009 1:57:37 AM)

MGP104,
Thought I might add some of my thoughts here and hope they will give you some ideas and may help you with your strategy.

Your basic question, "Should you continue to attempt to break the Gustav Line?". Why not? It's just a game and might be an interesting adventure. I must point out that there are specific Ground Interdiction Campaigns. However much shorter than the main course but focus on this aspect of the game. Might be a good Learn for you if you ventured through one or more of those before you continue. If you are really serious.

Some other things I want to share with you. TechSgt gave some good advice. Do not attempt to engage Ground forces at full strength. Remember one of the cardinal premises of this game for the allies is "Flak Bad". Ground forces have a lot of it. Also if you want to really effect Ground Forces you need to do some prep work first.

This is what I love about this game. This is just like the real deal. If you think you're gona play World of Warcraft and waltz up to your foe and drop some smak on em and watch em tumble... LOL man like Judis Priest sez..."You got another thing comin". Like the Wicked Witch of the West said "These things must be done veeeery Delicately or you might hurt the spell"... you might get spanked too..[X(]

Dont get in a hurry in this game or you will pay dearly for it. If you want to disrupt Ground forces the first thing you have to do is disrupt their supply lines. How do I do that you might ask... well..... When you are in the planning phase click on a Ground unit, a white line will appear on the map. It will snake back across the map through Rail Yards, Ports and etc... That is the Supply Line. All the facilities that it passes through are targets you can damage that will also effect the travel of supplies through it. Sounds great but not so simple yet.

This represents a lot of work to hit several specific targets just to weaken a Ground Unit. So, I would suggest that you check to see which specific Supply Path or Paths Targets supply the greatest number of the Ground forces you are trying to disrupt. Be aware that there very well may be several options for supplies to be routed to the Ground units in question. So you have to examine all the possibilities and then put together a plan to systematically shut them down. Once you do so you will notice that Disruption values of the Ground forces to go up thereby signalling their weakening.

I dont have enough experience dealing with Ground units to tell you at what level of disruption you might consider actually hitting them. I can tell you that in the campaign that I have been running I have made it a point to keep all the supply lines to the German Ground units in Southern Italy damaged and this has cause most all of the Ground units to be disrupted. In the 2 instances that the German lines have broken and withdrawn Northward I had sustained these conditions from the beginning throught their withdrawl and continue to maintain it now.

I have not yet applied this to the Normandy area yet as I still have a long wait until the landings might take place. Assuming that no matter what I do in the air I wont change the date at which those landing take place I am really not concerned about that now. But as that day approaches I will shift my assets in the regon to do that so that I can promote a breakout sooner than Historical. At least that is my aim.

We will see.....

Hope this has helped you with your game and hope you have fun with it.

Later,
KayBay



TechSgt -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/22/2009 8:34:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

MGP104,
Thought I might add some of my thoughts here and hope they will give you some ideas and may help you with your strategy.

...

I have not yet applied this to the Normandy area yet as I still have a long wait until the landings might take place. Assuming that no matter what I do in the air I wont change the date at which those landing take place I am really not concerned about that now. But as that day approaches I will shift my assets in the regon to do that so that I can promote a breakout sooner than Historical. At least that is my aim.

We will see.....

Hope this has helped you with your game and hope you have fun with it.

Later,
KayBay


Remember there is four phases to land combat.
1) Invasion, Salerno or D-Day
2) First line of defense, Gustav or Normandy
3) Breakout, Casino or St Lo
4) Retreat to last line of defense, Gothic or Seigfried

I found the date of the invasion(s) can vary slightly. The breakout can vary a LOT! (Buried out in all these threads is HARD_Sarge's comment about how early he broke the line).

In my last campaign, TOH '43, Italy broke in March and Normandy broke first week of July.
Then BtR was released! I still think that was an Axis conspiracy so I couldn't win before Xmas! Yes, I stopped and moved to the new version. [:'(]

TS



mgp104 -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/22/2009 9:44:08 PM)

Hi again,

More progress, and more frustration (I suspect trying to break the Gustav Line in 1943 is probably not going to be possible.....) I have been hitting the Gustav Line units pretty hard (According to my recon there are only about 5 German tanks in the whole line!), I've started to see some battles (five on one day, not bad since there are only 7 enemy units in the line and no reserves) between ground units, two of which have resulted in the enemy retreating about 30 miles. However at the end of the next day they move straight back into the line again.......(although with very poor combat strength)

I have some questions that I hope someone with more experience at ground campaigns can answer:

1 - Given that I have destroyed most of the tanks, is there any way that anyone has found effective for destroying the infantry or arty in large numbers? Especially since it seems that a certain number of guns and troops are very heavily protected (or at least I can't destroy them).

2 - Do the invisible Allied forces become more powerful over time? ie. if I try to break the line in Nov. '43 will it be harder to do than in Mar. '44?

3 - Should I try and hit all units in the line equally or really concentrate on one or two until they fall back?

4 - Are there any methods that people have found to really increase troop disruption? The most I've ever seen is 70.

Thanks

Mark



kaybayray -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/22/2009 11:17:55 PM)

mgp104,
I described a strategy in my post above that will allow you to weaken and overcome Ground forces. I suggest you use it along with what you are also doing.


1 - Given that I have destroyed most of the tanks, is there any way that anyone has found effective for destroying the infantry or arty in large numbers? Especially since it seems that a certain number of guns and troops are very heavily protected (or at least I can't destroy them).

No you can not individually target tanks over infantry or any other combination. YOu just keep pounding them. Level bombing is pretty devistating so you might try that. But watch out for flak... it will hurt you.[b]

2 - Do the invisible Allied forces become more powerful over time? ie. if I try to break the line in Nov. '43 will it be harder to do than in Mar. '44?

For the most part yes. However if you are not paying proper attention to Avalanch targeting then you may have some trouble. Also you should work over supply lines. It will make it much easier to destroy them and push them back. Read my post above.

3 - Should I try and hit all units in the line equally or really concentrate on one or two until they fall back?

I would recommend working over the supply lines then hit them.

4 - Are there any methods that people have found to really increase troop disruption? The most I've ever seen is 70.

Yes do as I say in my post above. Work over the supply lines and keep them out of supply and hit them.



Later,
KayBay



Richard III -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/23/2009 12:31:03 AM)

FWIE: I have only got results on ground units at the Gustauv with the first strike of the day, ( if that ) following strikes on same unit on same day just lose AC. However I don`t recon them each day which may make a difference.



TechSgt -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/23/2009 4:37:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mgp104

Hi again,

More progress, and more frustration (I suspect trying to break the Gustav Line in 1943 is probably not going to be possible.....) I have been hitting the Gustav Line units pretty hard (According to my recon there are only about 5 German tanks in the whole line!), I've started to see some battles (five on one day, not bad since there are only 7 enemy units in the line and no reserves) between ground units, two of which have resulted in the enemy retreating about 30 miles. However at the end of the next day they move straight back into the line again.......(although with very poor combat strength)

I have some questions that I hope someone with more experience at ground campaigns can answer:

1 - Given that I have destroyed most of the tanks, is there any way that anyone has found effective for destroying the infantry or arty in large numbers? Especially since it seems that a certain number of guns and troops are very heavily protected (or at least I can't destroy them).

2 - Do the invisible Allied forces become more powerful over time? ie. if I try to break the line in Nov. '43 will it be harder to do than in Mar. '44?

3 - Should I try and hit all units in the line equally or really concentrate on one or two until they fall back?

4 - Are there any methods that people have found to really increase troop disruption? The most I've ever seen is 70.

Thanks

Mark

Mark;

If any ground unit moves... pound it, strafe it, yell nasty insults at it!!!

Think back to the old "cardboard pushing days"... the Axis unit is on a mountain, double the defense factor (DF), the unit is in fortifications, 2X DF again, and maybe it is behind a river, 2x DF again and again!
Now factor in which TYPE of equipment is better at fighting in mountainous fortified areas behind a river. [;)] Be patient.

1) When a unit has 200 tanks it is easy to get some kills. Now that same unit has only 10 tanks, it will be a little harder to kill off that last one.
Also, the type of aircraft and the TYPE of bombing, -- Dive, Skip, High Level, or Low Level -- seems to affect the type and number of target elements destroyed.

2) Too philosophical for me?[:D]

3) The problem here is... you don't know when or exactly where the army will attack. So if you concentrate on a few units, the others will recover and get stronger. Now if the army attacks the recovered units, the army will lose!
3a) How do you attack every unit, everywhere, every turn?

4) YES!

5) Question asked elsewhere? RECON!
[sm=innocent0009.gif] "Recon in the morning, recon in the evening, recon at suppertime... [sm=innocent0009.gif]

6) Fighters and bombers are terrible at telling you the true status of a target. Did I mention you have to do recon flights?
6a) Interdict the supply lines, the entire length. It recovers kinda slowly. Did I mention you have to do recon flights?
6b) Attack a front line ground unit daily, if possible. Did I mention you have to do recon flights?
6c) Attacking rear units can be less frequent, but not much. Did I mention you have to do recon flights?
6d) If any ground unit moves... pound it, strafe it, yell nasty insults at it!!! Now what was it about recon flights?
6e) Be patient! Send out another recon flight!

TS

BTW: Mark, I'm not trying to be a wisea*s here.
I personally enjoyed the experimentation with trying to figure out how to do tactical attacks. Good luck!

ROME by Christmas!!!



harley -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/23/2009 4:58:41 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Richard III

FWIE: I have only got results on ground units at the Gustauv with the first strike of the day, ( if that ) following strikes on same unit on same day just lose AC. However I don`t recon them each day which may make a difference.


Smoke. Lots of smoke that takes a long time to dissipate.



harley -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/23/2009 5:33:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TechSgt

1) When a unit has 200 tanks it is easy to get some kills. Now that same unit has only 10 tanks, it will be a little harder to kill off that last one.



Every tank destroyed has to come from the tank pool. If you choose not to destroy tanks on the ground, you will have nearly immediate replacements when troops start withdrawing.



mgp104 -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/23/2009 9:49:34 PM)

Hi,

Further updates.... I have tried hitting the units with many more raids but fewer aircraft in each raid. Usually 1 bomber squadron on the hour and 2-3 fighter squadrons at half past the hour, I have enough aircraft for about 4 hours worth of this.

I'm now getting all 7 units in the Line being attacked by ground troops each turn, although only one attack is successful; the units that hold are taking damage from ground attacks however. I'm still finding that once a unit has retreated from the line it returns on either the same turn or the next (there are currently no reserves so I assume the Germans are throwing battered units back into the fight as they are better than nothing, one unit that has retreated twice now has a combat strength of <50).

I'm hoping that as I damage more units they will be broken and retreat and then be thrown back into the action before they are repaired, eventually maybe I will be able to force back every unit in the same turn. Bad news is that an (admittedly feeble) mountain infantry unit has begun moving in from Northern Italy.

Has anybody had any experience of what actually happens in the game just before, during and after a complete breakout?

Mark



Richard III -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/23/2009 10:01:53 PM)

What date are you at Mark ??



Golden Bear -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/23/2009 10:09:51 PM)

Without any attempts at early breakout the Germans retreat to the Gothic line from the Gustav line. I have a suspicion they'll do that for you too...

It would be nice to have some more northern AFs for the XVth earlier though.



mgp104 -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/23/2009 11:14:25 PM)

Hi,

I've just completed 15/11/43.

I'm also hoping that when I do break the line I'll be able to keep the pressure on the retreating Germans so they won't be in the Gothic line too long......



Golden Bear -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/24/2009 12:58:48 AM)

Oh, nooooooo.... they'll never leave the Gothic Line. No no no. (sorry)

It is an Air War sim, not a whole war sim.

So if you really want to play the "bomb the infantry" game, you need to work on Normandy. Sarge claims that he got them to break early and only good things for the air war happen from that. Now, you have lots of bombing units up north and not that many down south. Lots of great targets down south with only a few units... hmm?


Carl



harley -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/24/2009 5:42:08 AM)

Every time you see an assualt that succeeds time is taken from the time needed for the line to break. Time is added when the assault fails.

Theoretically, you could cut weeks or even months off the Gustav break time with a sustained campaign. I will categorically state it is possible, I just won't tell you how. It shouldn't be too hard to work out. 

Yes, I'm being vague.



TechSgt -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/24/2009 7:27:49 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: mgp104

Hi,

...

I'm hoping that as I damage more units they will be broken and retreat and then be thrown back into the action before they are repaired, eventually maybe I will be able to force back every unit in the same turn. ...

Bad news is that an (admittedly feeble) mountain infantry unit has begun moving in from Northern Italy.

...

Mark


1) You'll get your breaktrhough!

2) If you can spare the aircraft, bomb or strafe the mountian unit now!

TS




TechSgt -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/24/2009 7:35:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

Oh, nooooooo.... they'll never leave the Gothic Line. No no no. (sorry)

It is an Air War sim, not a whole war sim.

So if you really want to play the "bomb the infantry" game, you need to work on Normandy. Sarge claims that he got them to break early and only good things for the air war happen from that. Now, you have lots of bombing units up north and not that many down south. Lots of great targets down south with only a few units... hmm?


Carl


Carl;

It is learning time in Italy!
Then you move up to the big leagues. [;)]

TS




kaybayray -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/24/2009 7:39:14 AM)

Harley,
I wont be so vague [8D]

You can pound and pound all you want but if they are getting resupplied they will in effect keep regrouping and recouping. Now the Manual says that if you destroy Rail and Port facilities that supplies normally run through that over time supplies will be slowly trucked in.

OK... so where could they be trucked in from? uhh... any nearby city / Urban Area mabye??? So I would assume that you must first destroy the Major supply lines then pound and destroy all the minor ones as well. The idea being to "Isolate" them such that they can not get resupplied. Then IMHO pounding them will have maximum effect.

I would think that in this way over time you could Depleate and Disrupt them extensively. I would also assume that there is some threshold value of Disruption linked to a supply level within the mechanics of the game that triggers "Weakened Condition" and would then allow them to be booted out sooner that historical. I would also assume that the distance to other Urban areas perhaps farther away may also be linked to the potential for resupply. So there may be some value in the mechanics that allow for resupply within so many miles of a Major Urban area or a Capital city. This may also be linked to Airfields as well since it may be possible to mount Air Resupply within the mechanics of the game.

I mean this game was very well built and there is layer upon layer of detail constructed within the folds of this game. To me it is pretty much a No Brainer that any Urban Area, Airfield, within XX miles can resupply. So there is also probably some minimal level of Service, or Operational level for Airfields to mount Air Resupply. There may also be Bands of radius linked to levels of Resupply. For Example.... possibly.... XX % chance per every 50 or 100 miles distance to Airfield or Urban Area with XX% minimum level of some key attribute to allow resupply.

Harley... DONT TELL US.... but I know somewhere in what I am saying is the solution.[8D]

Later,
KayBay



Golden Bear -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/24/2009 3:55:17 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: TechSgt

It is learning time in Italy!
Then you move up to the big leagues. [;)]

TS


Oh, I understand that. I'm just fretting about all those huge AC sites north of the Alps and near Vienna that are cranking out AC parts while the bombers are lobbing 500 lbers on troops.

Fret, fret.

Carlos



harley -> RE: Gustav Line.... Again (10/24/2009 4:53:12 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear
I'm just fretting about all those huge AC sites north of the Alps and near Vienna that are cranking out AC parts while the bombers are lobbing 500 lbers on troops.


Your conundrum sums up the game quite nicely.



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