RE: ETO-scenario is here! (Full Version)

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Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/1/2009 12:04:37 AM)

All right, I have replaced the former map with the new. All my changes to the map (German economy, Slovakian erradication) is still there. Fine. Thank you.

Was this error caused by changes I made in the ETO, or was the problem in the normal map too? If the former is true, is the above attachment only for my scenario or do we have to change it for the standard scenario as well?

I will post an updated version of the ETO as soon as I have this confirmed or refuted. Those that have downloaded the scenario already can simply replace the old map-file with the attached version from Bleck.



Flaviusx -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/1/2009 3:30:05 PM)

Started a second playtest game this weekend, this time as the Germans. Played through June 1941. More Romania weirdness. They joined the allies in this game as well. Looks like the only way to prevent this is for the Axis to throw all his DPs in that direction. I foolishly chose instead to activate Iraq. At any rate, this diplomatic setup troubles me, I think it's going to cause problems.

Somehow, the Soviets wound up going to war with Germany in summer 1940, not quite sure how. They caught me flatfooted in mid 1940 and I had to rapidly redeploy units away from Yugoslavia (which I was about to hit, having concluded the French campaign.) They hadn't even taken the Baltic states yet when war broke out, and were still bogged down in Finland, so even a very abbreviated German effort made good gains. Wound up declaring war on the Baltic states myself and taking them as a German. Leningrad, Moscow, Kharkhov, and Rostov all fell in the winter 1940-1 period. The Germans had to clean up Romania in fall of 1940, but not before pushing the Reds back past Khrivoi Rog and establishing a screen. Summer 1941 has the Germans pushing towards the Urals, Stalingrad, the Caucaus oilfields, and Murmansk. (Which, annoyingly, is a VP objective in this game and not easily gotten to, especially with Finaland neutral albeit at war with the USSR, and Norway skipped by me as the Germans. Basically, I have to march all the way from the Svir to the end of the map, grabbing the few supply points along Karelia. And it's all woods all the time.)

The Soviet AI is displaying the same production weirdness reported elsewhere, btw. Massive SMPs (48) and horribly inflated war economy (250%+). Doesn't matter, really, they are still going to go down in due course, this is just a logistical exercise for the Axis at this point. I have to conclude that it really is necessary to do this just to keep the AI somewhat competitive with a human player, and even then a human should still win. At any rate, none of this matters in a pvp game, thank goodness, a player controlled Russia behaves normally in its economics, as I can attest from experience.  



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/1/2009 4:30:55 PM)

When it comes to Romania, she starts as an neutral Allied, just as Greece and Yugoslavia start as neutral Axis. I did this to better reflect the historical pre-war set-up.

In many games we played in the past, this has been a matter of some dispute. Some argue for the 1941 situation to give the flow of the game a gentle push in it's historical direction; some, like me, prefer the more complicated version with the above sentiments of the nations concerned. As it is in the Vanilla game, it's very easy for the German player. He simple gathers DPs and attack USSR on a wide front. In reality, with Hungary, Yugoslavia and Greece as promising Axis partners, but with Romania pro-Allied and Bulgaria torn between west, Germany and USSR, it wasn't anything as easy for Hitler at start. It ended in the Greek-Yugoslavian campaign, but the situation was open to other outcomes as well.

In ETO the Axis players have one grateful relief, since they don't have to attack Greece, throwing this Axis partner into the Allied camp and producing the prerequisite to threatening the Romanian oil fields. Romania, on the other hand, can pose a problem. Some of Germanys economy, resources for a value of no less than 22 PPs, are located within this country (oil import). Germany have the choice to either try to keep Romania out of the war or attack and conquer her as a safeguard.

Yugoslavia, unless the Allied or Comintern player can change this through a coup d'etat, is on the Axis side.



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/1/2009 5:47:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Downloading. I'll put some playtime into this as a Sov.


Flaviusx, you have played the game a lot. There's one thing that are beginning to give me a bit of concern. I haven't really undetstood how many reinforcemants there are. Now it seems they're so numerous that they threaten to affect the productional model. I want the players to buy their units, not the system to create them automatically.

The automatic reinforcements also makes other problems, such as producing a second set of DAK units, to name one. I can't change the events files without doing so also for other scenarios. And even if I could, I would be most hesitant, since muddling with them might easily create unwelcome CTDs.

I therefore suggest that the reinforcements, save the naval units which are exempted, should be disbanded immediately upon placement. This will give the player half the amount of the dstroyed unit's PPs back to spend as he sees fit.

I like some comments on this before putting it up as a home rule.



Flaviusx -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/1/2009 7:13:16 PM)

Honestly, I tend to disband most of these reinforcements myself anyways, because they mostly come into the game understrength.

One thing that could cause problems here: forcing the Soviet to disband the Mechanized and Armored Corps that go directly into the deployment pool. And they come in at tech 3 (regardless of actual Soviet tech level). The event only happens 2-3 times in a game, but they're a huge shot in the arm for the Sovs. That's 6-9 beefy corps. Disbanding them would be equivalent to losing hundreds of PPs, not to mention the possibility that you couldn't rebuild them immediately to tech 3 depending on your situation. They represent, presumably, elite Siberian forces. (This is separate from the divisions that appear on the eastern edge of the map by event, however. Those come in understrength and at tech 1.)



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/1/2009 7:38:26 PM)

Do you think we should make an exception for those?



Flaviusx -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/1/2009 10:11:35 PM)

I do. Everything else I could disband without issue.



Tomokatu -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/1/2009 10:30:58 PM)

quote:

Somehow, the Soviets wound up going to war with Germany in summer 1940, not quite sure how. They caught me flatfooted in mid 1940
That's happened to me in a stock-standard V1.5 pbem. It may NOT be a product of the ETO scenario mod.



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/1/2009 10:38:36 PM)

Another odd crash. Console out saying this:

Event Country PBEM to kraj neutralny.
Executing all convoys for Event Country PBEM
Event Country PBEM nie prowadzi wojny, wszystkie jednostki dostaj� zaop. pokojowe
*** Licze zaopatrzenie dla kraju neutralnego Vichy France ***
=== Vichy France liczy zaopatrzenie dla swoich jednostek ===
Vichy France to kraj neutralny.
Executing all convoys for Vichy France
Vichy France nie prowadzi wojny, wszystkie jednostki dostaj� zaop. pokojowe
*** Licze zaopatrzenie dla kraju neutralnego Dummy ***
=== Dummy liczy zaopatrzenie dla swoich jednostek ===
Dummy to kraj neutralny.
Executing all convoys for Dummy
Dummy nie prowadzi wojny, wszystkie jednostki dostaj� zaop. pokojowe

What is the purpose of "Dummy Convoy" and what does "Event Country"??



cpdeyoung -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/1/2009 11:39:57 PM)

Dear Uxbridge,

I have a question about the Italians in North Africa. They are running lickedy split because they are powerless. They have decent supply, but horrible effectivness. Is this by design?


[image]local://upfiles/25841/A242CD98935A48F0B32AA7C6A6E37BBC.jpg[/image]



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/2/2009 6:28:05 AM)

I haven't done anything to the Italians at this stage. Are they still at Peace? In our current game, divisions are all on "1" strength, not "0". We're at game turn 15.



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/2/2009 6:31:22 AM)

Having some problems, as stated above. Seems to be linked to Event player.

Problem with EP is that it needs to be controlled by one player in order to work, but you can't go to the next turn unless it is AI. At least I think this to be the case. I'm now changing it to player 1 (me) at the beginning of the Italian turn, play Italy and all Axis minors, including EP, then I change it back to AI to have the game execute end turn.



Flaviusx -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/2/2009 8:09:58 AM)

Bleck, I applied that map fix to my crashed saved game, and it now runs fine. So it did the trick.




17russia -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/2/2009 9:30:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Honestly, I tend to disband most of these reinforcements myself anyways, because they mostly come into the game understrength.

One thing that could cause problems here: forcing the Soviet to disband the Mechanized and Armored Corps that go directly into the deployment pool. And they come in at tech 3 (regardless of actual Soviet tech level). The event only happens 2-3 times in a game, but they're a huge shot in the arm for the Sovs. That's 6-9 beefy corps. Disbanding them would be equivalent to losing hundreds of PPs, not to mention the possibility that you couldn't rebuild them immediately to tech 3 depending on your situation. They represent, presumably, elite Siberian forces. (This is separate from the divisions that appear on the eastern edge of the map by event, however. Those come in understrength and at tech 1.)


These represent Siberian units that were very effective. I would not want to disband them either. If you collect the understrength units around Moscow then you can slowly use left over PP to bring them to strength and slowly SMP them to the front.



cpdeyoung -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/2/2009 12:34:29 PM)

Regarding the Italians in the snapshot above : They are at war, by event, after German progress in France. The only Italians affected are in North Africa. For what it is worth the Malta event is firing seen to nine times a turn, but I have enough sea transport for supplies.

One thing interesting is that convoys to Palermo and Tripoli are not "executing" because the area is in full supply and indeed, each city has 25, not 30, supply. I have never seen thia supply situation.

This is from my AAR of ETO and I did want to have a North African campaign.

Chuck



Bleck -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/2/2009 12:48:04 PM)

quote:

Bleck, I applied that map fix to my crashed saved game, and it now runs fine. So it did the trick.

Ok, thanks for info.

@Uxbridge:
Both your changes and map. One of "corrupted" hexes is next to city Bodo (added by you in this scenario).



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/2/2009 7:11:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung

Regarding the Italians in the snapshot above : They are at war, by event, after German progress in France. The only Italians affected are in North Africa. For what it is worth the Malta event is firing seen to nine times a turn, but I have enough sea transport for supplies.

One thing interesting is that convoys to Palermo and Tripoli are not "executing" because the area is in full supply and indeed, each city has 25, not 30, supply. I have never seen thia supply situation.

This is from my AAR of ETO and I did want to have a North African campaign.

Chuck



Oh, dear! Of course the Malta event is firing. When I changed this some time back it was my intention to limit the ETO to our small group of Swedish players. Neither of us plays against the AI or any other scenario, so there wouldn't be any problem changing the event in all or our computers. Then I just forgot about it. But if you really want to block this event, you have to change factors outside the scenario. Stupid of me. And there I was thinking myself sooo clever. I really do hate that event, since it doesn't make any sense to me. If the Allies wants to block supply they can do as in reality, send subs to the Central Med. Now it's like having a "lots of trains accidentaly crash into Waterloo station"-event. It just eats up PPs without any apparent logic behind it. And everytime it fires, you have to click it. Very well, seems we're stuck with it! [8|]

I really don't know why the Italians are so weak. It says they have supply from Tobruk, so this doesn't seem to be the problem.

That the convoys doesn't execute is another thing I wasn't aware of. If the Med is closed, the Italians immediately have great problems in NA, whereas the Brits have no such problems whatsoever. My intention was that there should be two possible levels of supply: Good with convoys running and problematic, with difficulties to operate far from cities, but not catastrophic. I never thought of this problem. I suppose the convoys will sail if you lower the intrinsic values of the ports.

CDP, change Tripoli's value in cities.csv from 25 to 19, to see what happens.



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/2/2009 8:27:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bleck

quote:

Bleck, I applied that map fix to my crashed saved game, and it now runs fine. So it did the trick.

Ok, thanks for info.

@Uxbridge:
Both your changes and map. One of "corrupted" hexes is next to city Bodo (added by you in this scenario).


Bleck, could you elaborate just a little about this? I realize now, that in ETO Bodo is suddenly out in the sea. I t wasn't earlier; my older versions of the scenario proves this. If I move the city to dry land, the game crash. What do you mean with corrupted hexes?



Bleck -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/2/2009 10:59:04 PM)

Hexes:
128, 3
122, 13
122, 14
are sea hexes, but they have assigned "owner country" values (they shouldn't have). If one of those hexes is next to city, game crashes when AI (or human) want to deploy unit there.



cpdeyoung -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/3/2009 4:45:48 AM)

Something is rotten in Denmark.

From my ETO AAR see the snapshot of German units not able to capture Danish territory past a certain point.

The new map.hmf file is in use.

Chuck

[image]local://upfiles/25841/85D40D1C8C1E472CA5314A1060F94302.jpg[/image]



cpdeyoung -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/3/2009 4:52:18 AM)

Oops, now they are capturing territory. I think I put the new map in place before the first shot and perhaps it had older data or something. Curious, and something to watch for if you use th new map file.

Chuck

[image]local://upfiles/25841/797B9C3AF7544963B6FFB79A2256A1B7.jpg[/image]



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/3/2009 6:46:27 AM)

You changed the map mid-game?



cpdeyoung -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/3/2009 12:17:48 PM)

Yes. I wanted to avoid the problems Flaviusx found when he got to 1942. This was in my AAR of the ETO scenario.

I did not realize the map.hmf file had current data in it. Didn't Flaviusx change his in mid game?

Is the map Bleck sent only a test map for Flaviusx's specific game?

Do we need a new scenario standard map.hmf for ETO, and other scenarios?

Chuck



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/3/2009 12:57:42 PM)

I have now changed ETO, later version, to correct these things. I'll post it later, before we start playing, when we're resonable sure there isn't more bugs lurking in it.



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/3/2009 1:17:14 PM)

CPD, it just occured to me ... in the Scenario-folder there's a file called "event_files". This is pointing towards the Event folder under "data". If we change the name of, as an example, "events_02_germany" in ETO folder and instead call it "events_02_germany_ETO", the events files would point towards another file. Then we simply copy the real "events_02_germany", rename it to the name chosen in events files and make proper changes in it. Then we drop it into Event folder.

When the system goes through the events phase it should ignore the first file but adress the second. Isn't this right?



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/4/2009 11:37:29 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung

Dear Uxbridge,

I have a question about the Italians in North Africa. They are running lickedy split because they are powerless. They have decent supply, but horrible effectivness. Is this by design?


[image]local://upfiles/25841/A242CD98935A48F0B32AA7C6A6E37BBC.jpg[/image]


No explanation for this yet?? [&:]



cpdeyoung -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/4/2009 11:50:33 AM)

It may have been the map.hmf file also. I have the old map back and my Italians have normal effectivness now, and are rushing back to North Africa. The French did well there, but their day is done, and I will have a campaign against the British there. The map file is way more important than I thought. When German units headed from "French" hexes back into German held territory they "reconquered" the hexes for "France". That is when I kenw I had to go back to the last good map turn and start over. This explains some of the slowness in posting to the AAR.

Chuck



cpdeyoung -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/4/2009 11:54:55 AM)

I agree with your interpretation of the event_files, which provides a pointer to the file. This could allow for a whole folder of files, but also we could point only to one different file, and leave all the rest in the main events folder.

At least that seems to be the case. Once again, kudos to the folks who designed this feature.

Chuck

PS: I am all for anything to get rid of the odious "Malta event".



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/4/2009 2:47:19 PM)

Some new changing in the upcoming 1.2 version:

31. Lowered the effect of fortifications with one third.

32. Broke up some of the continous fortification lines, forcing the player to defend more heavily the gaps between the hexes.

33. Removed some negative effect of multi-hex combat. This alters paragraph 3. above (the text in that have been altered as well).

34. Added 1 SMP for all Balkan neutrals.

35. Air attack effectivness in deserts have been raised, stressing the importance of air superiority in this theater.

36. Re-worked the production locations in the Caucasus slightly, placing more resources close to Baku.

37. Raised the defensive capabilities of Belgium and Netherlands slightly.

38. Added eight 20 % strength, level-3 armour corps to the USSR OOB. They will remain locked south or Orel until autumn 1941 and constitute Siberian reinforcements otherwise lost in the disbandment rule.

39. Re-worked the rail transport costs (lowering) to better reflect actual differencies between infantry and motorized/armour.



Changes in house rules for those testing this game as an PBEM-game:

7. All newly built units must be placed withing the country’s original home territory. The only exception is British infantry or motorized reinforcements. These may be placed in Kuwait and symbolize Commenwealth reinforcments.

8. All non-naval units given to the player as an effect of events, must upon placement be immediately disbanded. There’s no exception! The player is of course free to use the 50 % thus regained in PP for any spending of his desire.

9. There’s an upper limit to the level of SMP a major nation may have. This is as follows: Germany = 20; USSR = 16; UK = 6; France = 7; Italy = 8; USA = unlimited (not change 39. above).



Uxbridge -> RE: ETO-scenario is here! (11/4/2009 2:51:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung

I agree with your interpretation of the event_files, which provides a pointer to the file. This could allow for a whole folder of files, but also we could point only to one different file, and leave all the rest in the main events folder.

At least that seems to be the case. Once again, kudos to the folks who designed this feature.

Chuck

PS: I am all for anything to get rid of the odious "Malta event".



There is one very easy way to fix it. Once Italy goes to war with UK, the British player disbands his Malta garrison and the Italians move to capture it for free. Once there, the event is de-fused. When all Axis troops are gone from NA the Italian player removes his Malta garrison but the British don't "re-capture" it, preventing the event from returning.

The effect of Malta is just part of the WWII folklore. We can do without it.



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