RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (Full Version)

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Hard Sarge -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/18/2009 2:18:13 PM)

Welli from the patch (which you not have yet)

[image]local://upfiles/1438/990A1D203CBE4546838FB0F582107A2D.jpg[/image]



Golden Bear -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/18/2009 4:09:30 PM)

Man, I must be dense but I don't understand the issue here at all.

If the range is different now than in the original BTR, then I learn to live with it...

or, if one of you other players think that it is too short, then you need to convince HS to change it.

Personally I cannot tell from Sarge's screenies what point is being made.

The new/current range seems about correct to me, based upon rather a lot of readings about the subject. But I understand if other people have different opinions.

If you can live with the new range, then that should be that. If you want more or somehow a different property (speed, elevation) then make a proposal to HS and he can either tell you "no" or try to implement it. Seems like it should be simpler than all this discussion indicates.

I'll put on my hard hat now and climb into my slit trench...


Carl



Richard III -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/18/2009 4:50:21 PM)

Exactly so !

...and if they would just release even an unsupported editor as they did in the WITP Game sets ( why not here Matrix ?? HPS does it with each game ??) then everyone could tinker endlessly away making the game to their specs. The more the Devs screw with it to please people the more chance of breaking it ....again... which screws gameplay for all....until another patch....someday.



quote:

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

Man, I must be dense but I don't understand the issue here at all.

If the range is different now than in the original BTR, then I learn to live with it...

or, if one of you other players think that it is too short, then you need to convince HS to change it.

Personally I cannot tell from Sarge's screenies what point is being made.

The new/current range seems about correct to me, based upon rather a lot of readings about the subject. But I understand if other people have different opinions.

If you can live with the new range, then that should be that. If you want more or somehow a different property (speed, elevation) then make a proposal to HS and he can either tell you "no" or try to implement it. Seems like it should be simpler than all this discussion indicates.

I'll put on my hard hat now and climb into my slit trench...


Carl




Hard Sarge -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/18/2009 5:57:00 PM)

well, as Nick and Deckard were told, and others, there is too much from the old Code, that is HARD wired in the game, numbers and slots, mean something, just because it is open, or has this or that number, don't mean it can be changed, or added to

all of the work JC did, back in the day, on the old BTR forum, most of his changes only caused more damage


the old, Welli from the BTR game, wasn't correct, it was one of the planes, that was moved over, as is, I corrected it, because it needed to be corrected

I am still up in the air on the RCM models, all of them



TechSgt -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/19/2009 3:22:30 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Golden Bear

Man, I must be dense but I don't understand the issue here at all.

If the range is different now than in the original BTR, then I learn to live with it...

I didn't know it had been changed. Maybe, there was a bug?

or, if one of you other players think that it is too short, then you need to convince HS to change it.

Personally I cannot tell from Sarge's screenies what point is being made.

I think HARD_Sarge was being patronizing to dense me. [:D]

The new/current range seems about correct to me, based upon rather a lot of readings about the subject. But I understand if other people have different opinions.

Mine is ALL opinion. I have no facts to back that opinion up. Just comparing TOH to BtR

If you can live with the new range, then that should be that. If you want more or somehow a different property (speed, elevation) then make a proposal to HS and he can either tell you "no" or try to implement it. Seems like it should be simpler than all this discussion indicates.

What in ED-BtR is simple! [:D]

I'll put on my hard hat now and climb into my slit trench...
Move over!



Carl


TS



TechSgt -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/19/2009 3:35:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

...

the old, Welli from the BTR game, wasn't correct, it was one of the planes, that was moved over, as is, I corrected it, because it needed to be corrected

I am still up in the air on the RCM models, all of them


HS;

Wellington RCM
TOH = 639 Radius
BtR = 363 Cbt Radius 431 Real Radius
BtR(patch) = 436 Cbt Radius 519 Real Radius

OK. Got it! [;)]

TS



kaybayray -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/19/2009 7:53:34 PM)

Let me post some screenies to show exactly what I am talking about. I thought I had described it in great detail but apparently there is some confusion.

This was all started when I went to build a Night Bombing Raid and I could no longer use my Wellington RCM Aircraft because they did not have the capability to reach the Target point I was using which was within 50 miles of Dortmund. So I immediatly realize that if I can not reach past Dortmund how do I get to and around places like Berlin, Chemnitz and beyond later in the war? The Legs of these aircraft appear to have been clipped dramatically in the new version as opposed to the original version. So I make my original post.

When I get a chance I will post a screen of the Aircraft Detail sheet of the Wellington RCM aircraft from both versions so all can see exactly what I am talking about.

The bottom line being that if in the Original game I can select a target point East of Berlin and fly Wellington RCM aircraft to it from England and they orbit for 20 minutes then RTB but in the new version I can not get these same aircraft to a target point 100 miles West of Berlin because they do not have the range or radius capability to reach it this is a problem. I dont think it matters if we are using Range or Radius, the point being their Legs are significantly shorter and that is what I have been asking about all along.

Later,
KayBay



Golden Bear -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/20/2009 1:07:44 AM)

OK, this is the part that I don't understand about this thread.

You can't reach that far any more with the new game. Now, do you think that is incorrect? Is that the issue? You want them to go farther?


C.



kaybayray -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/20/2009 3:14:09 AM)

Hey Golden Bear <S>

I dont know if this new value is correct or not. That is what I was asking. I was not asking to make a Superstrato-Wellington RCM. I was making an observation that the legs had been significantly clipped from the original game. My only request was that what every the length of their legs it should be Historical.

As I stated in one of my earlier posts, if this new value is the correct Historical value then we're done. If it is not then I was requesting that a change to the correct Historical value should be considered.

I prefer to play a Historical Simulation Strategy Game with equipment that has Historical Capabilities. In this way I can attempt "What if" strategies using the same equipment that was actually available. If I wanted to build Superstrato-Imperial Dreadnaughts I could easily accomplish this with a Hex Editor. This is not my goal. And not knowing what is Historically accurate and what is not I was asking for the Matrix crew to take a look and see. Because IMHO I believe I had detected an Error or an Oversight and I wanted to give them an opportunity to tell me what it was or that I was mistaken.

Regards,
KayBay [8D]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/20/2009 5:29:47 PM)

looks like we will be losing more stuff

192 Squadron should be going, maybe one or more of the Welli elints

only elint mission so far, I can track, was to Essen, so don't help




E -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 1:06:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: kaybayray

As I stated in one of my earlier posts, if this new value is the correct Historical value then we're done. If it is not, then I was requesting that a change to the correct Historical value should be considered.

I prefer to play a Historical Simulation Strategy Game with equipment that has Historical Capabilities. In this way I can attempt "What if" strategies using the same equipment that was actually available.


Hear, hear!



HMSWarspite -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 3:47:46 PM)

You have to bear in mind that some consequences are not modelled. E.g (with a not terribly relevant game, but very real Life example) AI Mk10 (centimetric) radar was not allowed over Enemy territory for years after its in service date because of the risk of giving the magnetron technology to the Germans. The game would have not effect for any Mk10 aircraft beinbg shot down, and thus allowing the use of such aircraft unrestricted is unhistorical. Now, if the Germans got a random advance to centrimetric radar availabilty date every time a Mk10 radar aircraft was shot down over german territory (say), then you could allow the choice of how and when to use them to the allied player. If you dont model any effect for the Germans, other restrictions might be appropriate... (like restricted range, straight bans from use, not having them in the game in the first place, etc)

See the point?



TechSgt -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 3:51:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

looks like we will be losing more stuff

192 Squadron should be going, maybe one or more of the Welli elints

only elint mission so far, I can track, was to Essen, so don't help




HARD_Sarge;

Similar to the thread about the Fighter Sweeps, eh? [:D]

TS



TechSgt -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 3:54:13 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

You have to bear in mind that some consequences are not modelled. E.g (with a not terribly relevant game, but very real Life example) AI Mk10 (centimetric) radar was not allowed over Enemy territory for years after its in service date because of the risk of giving the magnetron technology to the Germans. The game would have not effect for any Mk10 aircraft beinbg shot down, and thus allowing the use of such aircraft unrestricted is unhistorical. Now, if the Germans got a random advance to centrimetric radar availabilty date every time a Mk10 radar aircraft was shot down over german territory (say), then you could allow the choice of how and when to use them to the allied player. If you dont model any effect for the Germans, other restrictions might be appropriate... (like restricted range, straight bans from use, not having them in the game in the first place, etc)

See the point?



Are we sure, it is not modelled already?

TS



HMSWarspite -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 4:04:05 PM)

Well if it is, take the spirit of what I say rather than the specific example. I dont know whether the Germans knew we were snooping with RCM Elint a/c... 



Hard Sarge -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 4:31:11 PM)

working on it

main issue, is most of these are not "reported"

but getting info

what is odd, is how they were set up, you could fly some Elint (ferret) some window decoy, and some Mandrel screens all on the same day with the same squadron

the window decoy look to be the ones I want

really is a interesting story, first idea was to be, to place two RCM planes into each Squadron, but then they figured out that a Squadron, for this would be better, then... it was seen that a Squadron wasn't enough, and it would take a Group of it's own

to do what I got/want to do, I need Harley, and, he is busy, trying to get the patch finished

Warspite, has a lot of it right, most of the good stuff, wasn't allowed to be used (Windows is interesting, the English wouldn't use it, as they didn't want the Germans to figure it out, but the Germans knew about it in 1940, and wouldn't use it, so the English wouldn't figure it out !, by late 43, the English figured, they didn't care anymore)

and a lot of the advances were when crashes, or bad landings were made

H2S was seen, but wasn't known what it was, until one crashed, and then the Germans were able to make a tracker for it

(good story, early on, when the US and the English started trading info, and needs, they worked out what was going to be needed to make the devices, the US leader, went to a US plant, and was taking a tour, of where these parts were going to be made, but the Manager wasn't looking too happy, finally, he asked him what was the matter, and he replied, well, it is going to be HARD, and I am going to really need to do some work, but 15,000 parts a week is going to be HARD to handle, the guy looked at him, a week ?, I need 15,000 a year, ahhh, a year, that is easy)



E -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 4:53:53 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

You have to bear in mind that some consequences are not modelled ... See the point?



I understand the reasoning for barring what-if's. I'm still generally against it in a wargame.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 5:50:05 PM)

I got no issue, with Tactics, Doctrine I do

I have spent the last week looking for info on this for the RCM's and I am making changes based on what I find out, but for the most part, these are not missions that were reported on, so it is not as easy as going to wiki and finding all the info you need

I have yet to find info on "range" flown with these planes, the few that I do find, are all subshort missions, so do not help at all

I can tell you how a Mandrel screen was formed and ran, I can tell you how a moonbeam raid was set up (wish I could do those)
(in fact, the Welli's are really doing a part moonbeam and a part window decoy run, when they fly, besides the Ferret part)


I could set up Tuba, but that only works coming home, so, can't do it

Tinsel don't work with in how the game works

I like how the Mandrel (for the most part) is working out

soooo

Welli, Halli, Forts, Libs, Strilings have the same range as there bomber partners, but are slower (need info on weapons, crew size, know the Fort was increased by two more jammer crew members, but don't know if the manned as many weapons)




MaraTheFinn -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 6:12:18 PM)

Look:

The Aircraft (A Historical Guide for the Modeller) of 100 Group by Martin Streetly (ISBN: 0 7090 1043 5), 1984, 174p.

It has silhuets and data about all RCM aircraft used in Europe during WW2.
RCM B17's did not have the chin-turret. There was a radar. Some RCM Forts did not have the belly turret either. All had aerials and a lot of those.
It looks like RCM Wellingtons had all armament except waist guns.



Baron von Beer -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 7:53:44 PM)

ELINT related, rather than start a new thread:   For the ELINT RCM aircraft to do their thing and expedite deployment of more advanced kit, is it sortie based, or dependent on them getting lit up? EG: Is flying around getting spotted by Freya/Mamuts along the coast as effective as going in and having those plus several night fighter radar types on a single mission?

We don't really have any instruction/game feedback on what they do, or how they are supposed to do it.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 7:55:04 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MaraTheFinn

Look:

The Aircraft (A Historical Guide for the Modeller) of 100 Group by Martin Streetly (ISBN: 0 7090 1043 5), 1984, 174p.

It has silhuets and data about all RCM aircraft used in Europe during WW2.
RCM B17's did not have the chin-turret. There was a radar. Some RCM Forts did not have the belly turret either. All had aerials and a lot of those.
It looks like RCM Wellingtons had all armament except waist guns.



it is out of my price range

do you have the book ? some scans, or details would be helpful :)




Hard Sarge -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 7:59:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Baron von Beer

ELINT related, rather than start a new thread:   For the ELINT RCM aircraft to do their thing and expedite deployment of more advanced kit, is it sortie based, or dependent on them getting lit up? EG: Is flying around getting spotted by Freya/Mamuts along the coast as effective as going in and having those plus several night fighter radar types on a single mission?

We don't really have any instruction/game feedback on what they do, or how they are supposed to do it.



to be honest, I don't really know, all I know, is they are suppost to try and "get" info, the better they do, the better chance of getting advances

what counts as "getting" or better, or advances is left in the air, again, no real, A=B and you get C



Baron von Beer -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/22/2009 8:34:25 PM)

Thanks, I should have known there's no such thing as an easy answer.  [:D] 

For what little it might be worth if you haven't already read it in your search for ELINT info,  a brief description of a 192 mission from a Victor A.Coles DFM (Flt/Lt. retired), @ http://www.wartimememories.co.uk/allied/royalairforce/159sqd-raf.html#coles 

"I did one Operation in a Wellington (Pilot F/O Clarkson) Flew from Hook of Holland to Brest at 2000 feet and back to the Hook looking for signals on a narrow band of frequencies. This was on the 27th May or 4th June , never had the operation logged in my flying log book because the next day after the trip was posted with Sgt Eric Ambler on embarkation leave for India, "Special Flight 159 Squadron SEAC" "

Also may have seen this, or have the book, but some 192 Squadron statistics from "The Bomber Command War Diaries" http://www.lancaster-archive.com/bc_sqn-192.htm

And one more item, showing one particular crews missions, looks like mostly up and down the coast as well, for ELINT duties at least: map:http://jrpraf.com/NWEurope.htm Op list: http://jrpraf.com/Operations.htm



TechSgt -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/23/2009 7:40:40 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

working on it

main issue, is most of these are not "reported"

but getting info

what is odd, is how they were set up, you could fly some Elint (ferret) some window decoy, and some Mandrel screens all on the same day with the same squadron

the window decoy look to be the ones I want

really is a interesting story, first idea was to be, to place two RCM planes into each Squadron, but then they figured out that a Squadron, for this would be better, then... it was seen that a Squadron wasn't enough, and it would take a Group of it's own

to do what I got/want to do, I need Harley, and, he is busy, trying to get the patch finished

I had read about the differing missions, but figured it would be difficult to program without using a bunch of detachments.
Late in the game, I can simulate the above with the extra RCMs being on-line.

Warspite, has a lot of it right, most of the good stuff, wasn't allowed to be used (Windows is interesting, the English wouldn't use it, as they didn't want the Germans to figure it out, but the Germans knew about it in 1940, and wouldn't use it, so the English wouldn't figure it out !, by late 43, the English figured, they didn't care anymore)

and a lot of the advances were when crashes, or bad landings were made

H2S was seen, but wasn't known what it was, until one crashed, and then the Germans were able to make a tracker for it

This is why I'm convinced this is being modelled... No, I don't want to know.
I don't like facts messing up my convictions! [:D]

(good story, early on, when the US and the English started trading info, and needs, they worked out what was going to be needed to make the devices, the US leader, went to a US plant, and was taking a tour, of where these parts were going to be made, but the Manager wasn't looking too happy, finally, he asked him what was the matter, and he replied, well, it is going to be HARD, and I am going to really need to do some work, but 15,000 parts a week is going to be HARD to handle, the guy looked at him, a week ?, I need 15,000 a year, ahhh, a year, that is easy)


TS
Smellin' the Roses



Howard Mitchell -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/23/2009 7:51:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

looks like we will be losing more stuff

192 Squadron should be going, maybe one or more of the Welli elints

only elint mission so far, I can track, was to Essen, so don't help




192 Squadron gets 22 pages plus in ‘Even When the Sparrows are Walking’ by Laurie Brettingham, a history of 100 Group.

Soon after its official formation from 1474 flight on 4 Jan 1943 they sent a detachment to the Western Med to survey German radars. They regularly investigated German radars by patrolling off the coast of France, Belgium, Denmark and Norway using the BAGFUL automatic recorder.

The squadron also accompanied main force raids to monitor inland radars, though most of the anecdotes covering this mention Halifaxes not Wellingtons (this was in the final months of the war). In October 1944 the squadron dropped its first window and on 12 December flew its first airborne jammer mission with two Mosquitoes. Eventually all the Mossies were fitted with Piperack as well as ELINT receivers so that they could carry out both roles on the same mission.

The squadron was very active – 440 sorties in 1943, 1,394 in 1944 and 602 in 1945.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/23/2009 8:10:28 PM)

thanks, I got a order in for it, I did have that info already, but thanks for looking for it

and yes, they were odd, they did fly the Welli, the Mossy and the Helli, in game, I dropped one of the Welli and replaced it with the Helli, as they started to fly that in Aug of 43

info on some of this is kind of odd, they joined 100 Group, and were flying missions for 100 group, before 100 Group came about, same with some of the other squadrons (so someone may have there dates screwed up)




Hard Sarge -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/23/2009 8:14:12 PM)

wow this is getting to be a big post !

okay, not sure if this will make much sense

but, this is close to the full gammit of "goodies"

Stirlings, Hallis, Wellies, Mossies in action, don't think the Forts or the Main Force has taken off yet, but, you can see what the results could be



[image]local://upfiles/1438/A48A594988614475BD3614F3B436541F.jpg[/image]



Howard Mitchell -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/23/2009 8:15:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MaraTheFinn
RCM B17's did not have the chin-turret. There was a radar. Some RCM Forts did not have the belly turret either. All had aerials and a lot of those.


My sources say the same - from Brettingham's book the section about 214 Squadron, which operated Fortresses, says:

"So as far as our Fortresses were concerned these were substantially altered from the specifications used by the Americans to suit 100 Group's special requirements... Mufflers were riveted to the exhaust pipes to screen the bright exhaust flames as these Fortresses were to fly at night, their noses sprouted bulbous blisters to house the H2S scanners and the bomb bays were sealed up to accommodate all the electronic jamming gear. It was also found that the underbelly gun turret was useless at night and this was removed".

"We used the Fortress because JOSTLE used for jamming enemy R/T transmissions would not fit into a Lancaster or Halifax... We also used CARPET and PIPERACK to jam AA gun radar... The crew of a 214 squadron fortress consisted of ten men. A Mid Upper Gunner, a rear gunner, two side gunners (who also threw out the WINDOW when instructed), two wireless operators, one who dealt with the jamming equipment, a bomb aimer (who dealt with PIPERACK and, I think, CARPET), a flight engineer, plus the pilot and navigator".

The book also has a few poorly reproduced photos of 214 Squadron Fortresses, one showing the tail gunner surrounded by a small forest of backward-pointing ECM aerials, one a side view with no ball turret visible, and one with a blister where the chin turret would usually be on a B-17G



Hard Sarge -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/23/2009 8:16:06 PM)

now, combine that with some help form 2nd Tac, Tiffies for the radar sites, Mitches and Bostons for NJG fields, and you got a nice little team going



Howard Mitchell -> RE: Wellington RCM cant even reach Dortmund??? (11/23/2009 8:16:51 PM)

Crossed posts Sarge - good you have an order in for the book, it's not too expensive second hand.



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