Aircraft research. (Full Version)

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ddiego -> Aircraft research. (11/15/2009 4:07:42 AM)

To activate aircraft research do you also need to have an assembly of that aircraft or do you only need parts and engines?



Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft research. (11/15/2009 6:50:10 AM)

you need frames also



Tuk -> RE: Aircraft research. (11/15/2009 12:32:28 PM)

What are frames?



Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft research. (11/15/2009 1:49:01 PM)

assembly



Have -> RE: Aircraft research. (12/2/2009 8:07:00 AM)

This research is one thing I have not yet been able to understand :)

In the production menu all the plane types are available from the beginning of the grand 1943 axis campaign. Yet here in the forums there is talk that they are not actually available for production. I have tested this by configuring about 1/5th of the production capability (parts, engines, assemblies) to produce the Ta152 fighter and now I am in day 9 of my campaign. Most of the factories show delays of hundreds of days for the Ta152, but some of them are just couple of days away (less than 10).

So will those factories start producing the Ta152 when the delay gets to zero? If that is the case, then what does the "research" effectively mean in this game? Or are the factories somehow "researching" the Ta152? How can I know when each type is available for full scale production?


It is a great game, which I really enjoy playing, but I just wish that there would not be so much hidden logic and values in it. Actually I think I have never before seen a game having so much of its core functionality hidden from the player :)



Tuk -> RE: Aircraft research. (12/2/2009 9:26:14 AM)

Production is not the best explained or easiest to understand aspect of the game, aparently there is a consensus that the whole thing needs reworking and clarifying. I'd have to agree.

As things stand, after asking many, many questions here, my understanding is that if a plane is unavailable, once you have 1 each on-line assembly plus appropriate engine and parts capacity, your research will begin. One such combination will produce 1 research point a day, though perhaps this is subject to a die roll, don't know. You need 100 research points to advance the availability of the plane by one month. So, and this is historically a bit dubious, the greater quantity of factories you throw at research, the sooner you will get your new design.

However, you need to make sure that competition for parts and engines does not deprive your research of one or more components for a research point, so, you need to know what else you have in production that uses the same parts and engines.

Another thing which shouldn't happen but until the next patch does, is your re-tooled parts and engines factories produce while on delay, so you'll accumulate these things when you shouldn't.

Personally, I don't think there should be any accumulation of parts and engines for pre-production models, unless, of course, they are already in use with another current model.



harley -> RE: Aircraft research. (12/2/2009 10:03:11 AM)

Tuk - it's not production that will be overhauled, it is the menu system that drives it (which should clarify it). You more or less have the correct understanding of production, except airframes are built and used or stored. If there are insufficient parts or engines they are kept till there's stock to put on them. Once there is one airframe, one part and XX engines (depends on model) the game will try to assemble them. There is some randomness in the final putting everything together, but it never consumes components that are not made into a plane or research, so it will probably come out of the factory tomorrow.

Have - The numbers are when the factory is producing. In this case, the production will become research. As Tuk said there is a bug that caused factories on delay to produce when they shouldn't and some old hardcoding we didn't need that allowed Bf109G6 - TA152C transfers for free. Both will be fixed in the imminent patch. It's so close I can taste it.

As for research - it is significantly harder now. you need 100 points to get a plane due next month into this month. You would need over 10,000 points to get a plane due in '45 during 43. It does get easier the closer it is to production. Thanks to Lanconic for finding the flaws (logic and code) in our system.




Have -> RE: Aircraft research. (12/2/2009 10:29:56 AM)

Thanks for the advice.

Is there any way I can follow how the research is going on? Information like how much research has been done for each plane type? Information when the plane is ready for production? Or some estimates?



Tuk -> RE: Aircraft research. (12/3/2009 9:51:43 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: harley

Tuk - it's not production that will be overhauled, it is the menu system that drives it (which should clarify it). You more or less have the correct understanding of production, except airframes are built and used or stored. If there are insufficient parts or engines they are kept till there's stock to put on them. Once there is one airframe, one part and XX engines (depends on model) the game will try to assemble them. There is some randomness in the final putting everything together, but it never consumes components that are not made into a plane or research, so it will probably come out of the factory tomorrow.
Aha! I couldn't figure why, apart from just for the hell of it, HS recently refered to 'airframes' instead of assemblies.

So, just to be clear, can you answer this example please-

Let's say we have plenty of airframes (which, unlike other production components, are invisibly stored), plenty of parts and 1 active 'assembly.' This build up is caused by a bottleneck in engines. Suddenly 50 engine capacities come on line. Is there a possibility that 50 new planes will be built in one day even with just one 'assembly'?

If so, assembly is a misnomer as it has nothing special to do with assembling, but merely the production of airframes. The actual assembly, for all we need be bothered, could be taking place under the sea?

So, since airframes are just another component like parts and engines, and production has no special dependency on assembly plants, there is no reason for the status of assemblies to be reported differently from that of parts and engines in the production windows?



harley -> RE: Aircraft research. (12/3/2009 10:58:35 AM)

In your example, if those engines do not get used by another type first, then yes, you will probably receive all 50 in one day. You don't even need the assembly plant operating.

I guess technically assembley is a misnomer.

As for your last point - this brings us back to redoing the production organisation screens.



Tuk -> RE: Aircraft research. (12/3/2009 11:51:41 AM)

Thanks.



vimconfused -> RE: Aircraft research. (2/9/2010 8:22:02 AM)

There was an earlier question about when an aircraft is actually available for production. I may be missing something (hey, at turn 7 of a 700 turn campaign I can most certainly describe myself as a newbie!) but I can't find a list which tells me the expected availability of German aircraft in the long 43 campaign, or indeed which ones can be produced from the start. I have no doubt it can be in the game somewhere and I just can't find it. For example, I see that there's Fw190G in the replacement pool but no factories configured to produce them so I'm guessing that it is available... but how would I know that if there weren't any in the pool? Alternatively are there types that are converted by the game from some other version for free?

Many thanks for your help in advance.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft research. (2/9/2010 12:40:16 PM)

for the G model, the plane is a long range Jabo Model, meaning it trades weapons for drop tanks

it is there if people want to build it, use it

(now, in Luft Sud, that may not be a bad airplane, lot of area to cover and not really a issue for firepower)




vimconfused -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/1/2010 7:17:13 PM)

Another minor research question.

Does the research (if you accumulate enough points) bring forward availability of units of whole months, or by numbers of days? I ask because I've just got to 30 November 43 and He219 has a normal availability of December (I am assuming 1st December... please let me know if these dates are not based on the first of the month). I have converted some production to He219 from the start of the game, but have failed to advance the availability at all. Sure it was only approx 5 (complete) assemblies (building up to 9 by this date), but nevertheless no research appears to have been counted (in units of less than one month anyway).

Edit: on 1 December I didn't get He219, but did get Fw190A-8. Very strange unless the dates I was advised of are wrong or there is a random element I wasn't aware of.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/2/2010 1:13:47 AM)

start dates should be the 1st of the month, end dates should be end of the month

from the data, 219 is 12/43 and the A-8 is 1/44

other then that, not sure what you got ?




Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/2/2010 1:26:05 AM)

I can't get inside of a save, but from what I see from the save you sent me before

you have in stock

for the 603A engine, (which the 219 needs)

you need 64 a turn

you have planned 59

you are getting 26

you have in stock 2

for 219 parts, you have 126 in stock

as of the date of the save, I don't think you are reseaching it, too much demand for the engine

it should still show up as of Dec, make sure on the 2nd of Dec to see if it is ready or not (some times it shows up on the 2nd day, also, if it is not getting built, I don't think it will show up in the lists



vimconfused -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/2/2010 9:32:31 AM)

Thanks HS.

Point taken about no actual research going on as "too much demand" means available engines are being fitted in the Me410s.

However, its now 5 Dec 43 and I'm making 45 x DB603A and the requirements for it are:
Me410 assembly lines 16 (so 32 requirement)
He219 assembly lines 9 (so 18 requirement)
Do335 assembly lines 1 (so 2 requirement)
(there are no parts shortages)

Obviously the Do335 is research so bottom of the food chain. But even if all available engines go to the Me410 factories, there should be 13 going to the He219 factories. What has happened is that the factories produced a single He219A-2 three days ago... and none since! I only have one day data on the Me410 but my 16 assembly lines produced 23 aircraft yesterday.

All sorts of questions and comments stem from this, such as is there anyway anyone has managed to control which assembly lines get engines for which there is a shortage... even if not expressly allowed by the game, is there a work around? I'm making lots of Me410 I need far less than the He219... having a couple of Me219 factories bombed (lightly) would actually be beneficial, but I can't switch them off manually! Sure I could change the Me410 lines into something else, but its double the delays if I ever wanted to change back. But I'm still worried that there is almost no He219 production (yes I did check I was producing the right variant for the date!)

Edit: next day same situation: no He219s made; 21 Me410s. My other new production (Bf109G5/AS, and the two new Fw190A-8 variants) are producing quantities I would expect with no engine shortages. Since I'm still getting more 410s than seem possible, are all the additional DB603A engines going to some stockpile of partly completed 410 assemblies somewhere? More information on hidden stockpiles (if this is the problem) would be very helpful, but if this is the case, even switching off current Me410 production wouldn't make a difference I guess.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/2/2010 11:02:28 AM)

However, its now 5 Dec 43 and I'm making 45 x DB603A and the requirements for it are:
Me410 assembly lines 16 (so 32 requirement)
He219 assembly lines 9 (so 18 requirement)
Do335 assembly lines 1 (so 2 requirement)
(there are no parts shortages)

roger, I think what you are running into now, is you still have a lot of 410 Frames in stock, from when you didn't have enough engines (which is where you see that 23 being built in one day, the extra 7, pretty much sucked up all of the engines for that day, overall, would say, you are going to be getting 219s in dibs and drabs for a while now, until all of those 410 frames get used up

(when this screen was first worked out, way back when (old game), I think they figured if you knew how many parts were needed, you also knew how many Frames were being made, but, it is still confusing as you get down the road into the game, Harley has said, he wants to add Frames to the Stockpile list, to make it easier to follow what is going on, hopefully so, as it can be confusing, even more so, if you just look at it once a month or so !)

only thing you can really do, is to shut down some of the 410s and let the stock pile get used up (change the smaller ones to something you could use, or want to reseach (once there is no demand on the engines, other then the 219, you should see a large raise in the numbers being built (you will also have a stockpile of 219 frames sitting around)

{and to be Honest, as you can see, production is a pain, Engines are needed for this and for that, and the drain on the engines will drive you up the wall, what I wanted to do and couldn't get the coding in yet, was like the LW did, in 44, shut down almost all twin production, other then what was totally needed, in your case, you are needing 50 Engines for your two twins, if those were totally shut down, that is 50 Engines for fighters that could used (which to be fair, you are still going to want some 219s running around, so say 5 a day of those and 40 engines for day fighters)




vimconfused -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/2/2010 1:03:26 PM)

Thanks again for the comprehensive reply. But by "shut down" I assume you mean change to some other type of production? Some sort of cap on the number of engines to be sent to each assembly (or stockpile of partially built assemblies) would be handy.

Incidentally, my 410 production has gone like this.

5 Dec... 23
6 Dec... 21
7 Dec... 19
8 Dec... 16
9 Dec... 14

And at the same time my "real" assembly lines have been reduced to 13, which of course may mean nothing if this is all being driven by stockpiled assemblies... though the slowdown appears significant. Having said that, I've still not received a single new He219!

Incidentally, my 109AS and 190G8s are producing as expected (they don't have engine shortages). For example, my 9 Fw190G8/R7 assembly lines have produced in the past four days:
8 then 7 then 5 then 11.

But best of all, its been bad weather so I've been able to change over a few groups to these new types, and get them all available for use; and add buckets of flak to my now mended radar stations, and many other places.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/2/2010 1:23:56 PM)

well to be honest, while that does look like a slow down and the burning up of stocks, I would be shocked if you are out of 410 frames yet (you had months with out enough engines, while frames were being built)

I would cut down the number of Frames being made for the 410, until you see a steady number being built, and then work out how many a day you really need (I would go for a model that does not need the same engine, and let the extra engines either burn up the 410 stocks, or get to work on the 219 stocks)

not sure why you are not seeing the 219, other then, the 410 is eating up all of the engines



Have -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/2/2010 4:10:52 PM)

Couple of questions.

1) How can I see the status of the research for each plane? Eg. The amount of produced points.
2) How can I see when a plane is ready for production?
3) If I have an assembly of plane X, but no engines and parts for it ( not made nor in stock), am I still getting these things called 'frames' in stock for plane X?
3a) if this is the case what happens when an engine and part is produced? Do I immediately get a whole plane regardless of the factories assebling them?
3b) Is there any way to see the number of 'frames' in stock if they really go to there?



Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/2/2010 5:29:01 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Have

Couple of questions.

1) How can I see the status of the research for each plane? Eg. The amount of produced points. N/A right now
2) How can I see when a plane is ready for production?
if you were reseaching it, you "should" have some built when it is ready, first of the month is the time to check, or if one of the testing units come it, it will have a date with it in the reinforcement list
3) If I have an assembly of plane X, but no engines and parts for it ( not made nor in stock), am I still getting these things called 'frames' in stock for plane X?
yes, you are making the Frames (Assembly) if you are only building Frames, it will show in the production list that you need engine/part for it (IE, if you are building 3 109H-2 frames, you would show that you need 3 DB 628 Engines, and 3 BF 109H-Parts)

3a) if this is the case what happens when an engine and part is produced? Do I immediately get a whole plane regardless of the factories assebling them?

maybe not immediately, but yes, it will be built from the parts in stock (I would read the AFAC as building the Frame and putting the parts togeather, which if no AFAC is still building that Frame type, a sub site would still be putting them togeather)
3b) Is there any way to see the number of 'frames' in stock if they really go to there?

not yet, is on the list, really, the Production list is 100 times better then it was before, but it is/can be confusing, so if we can, we want to add in more info to it, but that is in Harley's hands, not mine



Have -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/2/2010 9:05:14 PM)

Alright, thanks for the quick answer!



vimconfused -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/3/2010 12:41:58 PM)

Update.

Late December and my He219s are finally rolling off the assembly lines (I guess technically they are airframes having engines added that rolled off the assembly lines some time ago!)

Its one more complexity for the production system though... I've now probably got a large amount of He219 assemblies (which I can't see), I can see I've got a large number of parts, meaning that this will continue to eat up the engines probably long after I need He219s... probably interfering with my Do335 production! (Well probably not that long, but you know what I mean).

It just makes it more difficult to know when to change production. To me, changing the "assembly" component means changing production, but actually if you have loads of assemblies already made it means nothing of the sort. Oh well, the sooner we can see these stockpiles the better.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/3/2010 4:09:24 PM)

well, remember, not every aircraft, was built in one place, and some of these, were built in despots, and held there, either waiting for the parts to finish, or for the units to come and pick up the plane (early on, I wanted the stockpile to be on the map, you ruin the hangers, wharehouses with the parts in them, you ruin weeks of production)

(there are recon snaps of 410s sitting around a airfield at a plant, that wasn't making 410s any more, they didn't have the engines and knew that they never would, so the 410s were places around the other side of the airfield, in the hopes they would attrack attention, if anything came over to attack)




vimconfused -> RE: Aircraft research. (3/4/2010 1:03:52 PM)

I'd be very happy if you could just pile your half completed aircraft that you don't need on some out of the way airfield to attract fighter ground attack. At least there should be some way of shutting down production of aircraft you don't want.

My latest example is this. I make 7 x DB605A engines per day. The three aircraft in my inventory that use them are:

Bf109G-6
Bf110G-4 and most importantly, since its just become available
Bf110G-4/R7

Unfortunately, just like my He219 problem outlined here, I'm not building any of the R7 versions because the available engines are going to the other two types. But its worse than before because I have *no* assembly lines producing the first two types. So even though I don't want/need any more of them, my factories today delivered 2 x Bf109G-6 and 4 x Bf110G4... so again using the "invisible stockpile" of assemblies, which obviously means I've no idea how long this will go on for before I get aircraft I actually want.

Incidentally, I'm wondering how the game assigns these engines when there are several demands. Is it based on units in service? I do have several gruppen of the 109G-6 and 110G-4 (although enough spares in the pool to cover losses), but no groups of 110G-4/R7. I'm thinking I might try to form a group with the single R7 aircraft I did get on the first day of availability (perhaps this is coded by the game to let you know a new type is available?), to see if this helps get any more built.

EDIT: changed one unit over to give it my single R7, and sure enough on the next two days it got one new aircraft per day. Meant to change a Stab but ended up changing a Gruppe... didn't amend the mistake as it seemed amusing to visualise the 38 pilots running to see who could get one of the three aircraft! Then one got shot down the next day of all things, so I don't think I'm going to have a large 110G-4/R7 force in the near future!



BIG ERN -> RE: Aircraft research. (11/29/2012 2:30:20 PM)

So if I understand correctly [newbie here] if i want to advance production of say the ME262, I switch at least one factory to parts and one to frames..and when enough have been built i will start getting aircraft?
In other words there is no "research" button, just adjust the production?



BIG ERN -> RE: Aircraft research. (11/29/2012 2:43:06 PM)

i am about to start a PBEM campaign so I have Another newbie question

1] ..what planes should I be building? I mean of existing in the campaign scenario? Should I be switching over ME 109 to FW 190? Ju88 to ME410?? . in other words.. what are the best planes to have. I thought it would be FW190.. and perhaps a good night fighter. I trust your experience will save me some time...

2] ..I have played short scenarios in the game.. and never seen RAF bomber command show up.. yet in some forums I see them mentioned. In the campaign scenarios does the RAF show up..?

3] I also am having difficulty distinguiishing night fighters? Can I assume every plane except 109 and 190s are night fighters and therfore should be avoided using except against unescorted bombers deep in the Reich?



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