banner guards eratta? (Full Version)

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Chaylaton -> banner guards eratta? (11/18/2009 12:33:28 PM)

Hey all,

Its my turn to play Russia in my table top group, btw we're looking for a fourth if you live in the Cincinnati Area, each previous game Germany get crushed in Russia for a large part by the Banner Guard units. Has there been any kind of errata to these units, like can't come out until 42 or one per turn? This last time I played Germany, it was a 41 Barb I lost big time not just on a few bad rolls, but the Russians were able to attack my flip units killing them and gaining banner units! Between J/A S/O the Russian player put 9 banner units on the table. He just ran the mobile banners between the north and southern fronts. Thoughts suggestions?



composer99 -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/18/2009 5:39:19 PM)

Roll better as Germany.

Since you are playing USSR, hope the Germans roll poorly and you can pick up GBAs.



composer99 -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/18/2009 5:50:30 PM)

More seriously, I am not personally aware of house rules to control GBA output. I do not believe I am going out on a limb to suggest that most groups do not feel the need to balance their games against GBAs.

If your group finds they are unbalancing in your circumstances, then your suggestion of restricting GBA placement to 1 a turn or so is probably reasonable.



christo -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/19/2009 4:35:39 AM)


GBA (and indeed russian production) often reflect the progress of the game and then magnify the effect. If Russia is doing well then they will have more GBA making it harder for the German player to make gains and visa versa.
We have not felt the need to modify their effects/ generation but this probably simply means that we need to play more games.



micheljq -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/19/2009 1:39:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: christo


GBA (and indeed russian production) often reflect the progress of the game and then magnify the effect. If Russia is doing well then they will have more GBA making it harder for the German player to make gains and visa versa.
We have not felt the need to modify their effects/ generation but this probably simply means that we need to play more games.


We did adopt the GBA in the last 2 campaigns, but I begin to see adverse effects to it. In our next game, I may be against the adoption of this rule. I agree if Russia is doing well, it will amplify this fact.



Chaylaton -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/23/2009 11:55:47 AM)

Thanks for the input. Maybe I should ask my question in a different way. Through out this forum I've read how Russia can get blown off the Euro maps in a German route, has anyone ever seen this happen with a Russian player playing with this optional rule?

Chaylaton



morgil -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/23/2009 2:00:48 PM)

Germany has a sunshine arm. If you get good weather for 3 turns after they attack Russia, they will basically clear the european map. Or if there is a large difference in the experience of the German and Russian player, that will happen too, no matter the weather.
The GBA does not affect this much, cause first off, the Russians have to win a battle, then win it with a good margin, and then attack with units that are promotable. To get this you usually need the German player to make mistakes either in positioning, or in taking too daring attacks. Or a lucky bombrun by the russians.
I like the GBA, since it is more costly for Germany to fail, and that should get them to be more carefull of being overextended, and making bad attacks on the front.



Shannon V. OKeets -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/23/2009 6:51:16 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: morgil

Germany has a sunshine arm. If you get good weather for 3 turns after they attack Russia, they will basically clear the european map. Or if there is a large difference in the experience of the German and Russian player, that will happen too, no matter the weather.
The GBA does not affect this much, cause first off, the Russians have to win a battle, then win it with a good margin, and then attack with units that are promotable. To get this you usually need the German player to make mistakes either in positioning, or in taking too daring attacks. Or a lucky bombrun by the russians.
I like the GBA, since it is more costly for Germany to fail, and that should get them to be more carefull of being overextended, and making bad attacks on the front.


Good point.[:)]



Orm -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/23/2009 8:05:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Chaylaton

Hey all,

Its my turn to play Russia in my table top group, btw we're looking for a fourth if you live in the Cincinnati Area, each previous game Germany get crushed in Russia for a large part by the Banner Guard units. Has there been any kind of errata to these units, like can't come out until 42 or one per turn? This last time I played Germany, it was a 41 Barb I lost big time not just on a few bad rolls, but the Russians were able to attack my flip units killing them and gaining banner units! Between J/A S/O the Russian player put 9 banner units on the table. He just ran the mobile banners between the north and southern fronts. Thoughts suggestions?

As Germany you can strive to rebase 1 or prefarably 2 fighters towards your front units each impulse to guard against Russian groundstrikes. Maybe get two Italian fighters for this purpose as well so the Russian player think twice before commiting his bombers to groundstrike you.



brian brian -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/23/2009 11:36:54 PM)

The Russians can play to get them by building strong points in certain hexes with forts and other ways to maximize the mods on the 2d10. One bad German roll on a hex like that and the hex gets even stronger and their timetable gets set back, possibly quite a bit if this happens in the autumn. I don't know anyone who would play without them. I would only consider that if the Germans forgo the SS units.

Russian bombers in 1941, however, are a route to doom for the Russians as a) they are likely to get overrun after use, and b) even after a lucky ground strike the Russians can then rarely afford to roll poorly and flip themselves. Russia is on the defense in 1941 and can't afford to fool with bombers, in my opinion. Just leave them safely in the Reserve Pool with the possible exception of the TB-3's for emergency re-org missions or flying a MTN corps in to Leningrad or Rostov at night. The Russians are better off using their three air missions to keep their own fighter cover over their armor and HQ's. The Allies picking up attack dice before they can afford the consequences of a bad roll or two is a great way to see their position deteriorate.



Zorachus99 -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/25/2009 7:30:39 PM)

Using bombers for defensive ground support without fighter escort is slightly more effective because of the number of aircraft required by the Germans to counter.  I like to keep a bomber within the range of the front just to complicate the situation.  It's amazing how much play can change just because of one aircraft in a theatre.  China can die easily if they don't have a single FTR to keep Japan honest...



Breunor -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/27/2009 5:08:35 AM)

It also may be easier if you play with night missions (option 52). Some of the Soviet bombers are tough enough tht they can be effective even if halved and flying at night can be a lot safer.




brian brian -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/28/2009 5:06:15 PM)

If you play with Fractional Odds a single bomber becomes just another fraction in the calculation, not an odds level shift....and that is how I've played for a long time. When all you gain is a few tenths on the die roll it can be risking too many BPs for too little result, imo



Breunor -> RE: banner guards eratta? (11/28/2009 6:32:17 PM)

Good point Brian. Fractional odds especially with 2 D 10 make low power tac less useful especially on defense, I agree I would make them a very low priority in that case. Regular odds + 1 D 10, probably most useful case where you mass them to get a key odds shift.




Edfactor -> RE: banner guards eratta? (12/8/2009 4:27:27 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: brian brian

If you play with Fractional Odds a single bomber becomes just another fraction in the calculation, not an odds level shift....and that is how I've played for a long time. When all you gain is a few tenths on the die roll it can be risking too many BPs for too little result, imo


Actually if you have say 15 points defending vs 64 in a 4.26:1 attack a 3 point bomber shifts the odds considerably down to 3.55:1 thats .70 of an odds column.



BlackStarWizard -> RE: banner guards eratta? (1/13/2010 1:53:17 PM)

Guys,

The long range bombers are great in 1941, but forget ground support - they are there to keep alive the threat of groundstriking any Germans stacks left without air cover.

As Russia I tend to always keep two or three of these bombers around, based way behind the frontline. Especially the range 17 one is great - the Germans need to keep their HQs and armour under fighter cover along the entire front to eliminate the threat.

That's a great allocation of BPs in my opinion.

EDIT: And yeah about the GBAs - I agree completely that they definitely appear early only as an effect of Germany failing.

But that's what they are stated to model too, isn't it? A great mass of captured equipment along with raised morale due to the first mass victories of the Red Army.



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