Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (Full Version)

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Nicholas Bell -> Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/19/2009 6:09:39 PM)

My current PBEM opponent has introduced me to a deadly effective Allied tactic – placing sweeps to sit on top of German airfields right above the max effective range of the 37mm FlaK. Now granted, the Allies did this during the war, but the effect in game is totally out of whack. For one (this has already been mentioned by others), if the LW player keeps his planes on the ground, the pilots get killed sitting in their planes. While this is understandable under a few surprise circumstances, this happens for the entire day if the unit stays on the ground.

Even worse though is the “clay pigeon” effect of German planes returning to land. Fully 80-90% of them are destroyed because they are too stupid to divert to another airfield which is what actually happened. They just keep coming and getting shot down. Despite significant airfield FlaK, because the sweeps are above the effective range, damage to the Allied fighters is zip. A couple of a/f’s I placed 88’s on at that at most damage a few fighters. Because my opponent cannot know exactly every airfield I am using, I am “only” losing 30-40 planes shot down in the landing pattern daily, and these are effectively wiping out entire gruppen. This is just way overblown.

Now lest you think I am only crying foul because I’m losing my butt, I want to point out that in the BOB side of the house, the long range Me-110’s are specifically prohibited from doing the same routine against the RAF. Note, you CANNOT place Me-110’s on sweep missions because it is hard-coded that way. To quote Harley “you'd have 110s sweeping and lingering for hours... That can be a game-killer.”

It would be nice to tone down the effect a bit - a lot actually. When a sweep is returning and happens to fall upon a German airfield, sometimes 2-4 planes get caught in the landing pattern. That to me is totally realistic. But not realistic is having 20 out of 22 planes shot down out of a single gruppe while landing because there is no way to land at a different airfield in the code.

Only my guess, but it appears the manueverability rating of planes landing is greatly reduced as they are all easy to shoot down. If so, perhaps that could be tweaked.

In game solutions anyone – what do you do? If one uses the whack a mole concept, you could move all your units around every day. Of course, practically all the planes will be unable to fly then , being in maintenance. Or retreat to central and eastern Germany so that they time the sweeps can linger over the a/f is hopefully too limited to catch the planes landing?



Golden Bear -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/19/2009 6:49:23 PM)

Interesting... it's tough to do as well against the AI. When I catch planes landing, the best I get is around 50% and frequently not that high.

For solutions:

- the AI moves units very frequently. This leads to a lot of wasted sweeps. Also, it pulls units pretty far back so that lingering is shortened as well as the risk of the FS suiciding along the way.
- How about bouncing them? If the planes are hovering just above the LAA it ought to be possible.
- I have also seen the AI move in tons of AA, sometimes including rail flak. Having a unit hit an empty field and get 4-6 fighters shot down makes me a little more selective.
- Timing of the units leaving the field and returning also messes up interceptions quite a bit. The fighters cannot linger forever and if you avoid launching them at the same relative time to intercept bombing raids it can raise heck with sweeps.



Richard III -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/19/2009 8:58:44 PM)

What about some simple house rules Nick ? That usually can take care of about 95% of PBEM exploits and still leave the AI game untouched and pure ( and working reasonably well ) ???

Rich



Otto von Blotto -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 12:06:55 AM)

A couple of quick ideas

1. move your fighter bases back out of the danger FS zone but still within bomber interception range.
2. intercept the fighters as they come in.
3. set patrols over the fighter bases a couple of 1000 feet higher than FS.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 2:27:45 AM)

WAD



Nicholas Bell -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 2:53:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

WAD


So you think it's fair and correct to cheat the Luftwaffe of the ability to sweep in BOB, but okay for the Allied player to do so against the Luftwaffe in BTR. How do you explain that line of reasoning?

Is WAD (working as designed) your way of excusing yourself of responsibility for EXPLAINING the rationale for the design?



joey -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 3:23:04 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

WAD


So you think it's fair and correct to cheat the Luftwaffe of the ability to sweep in BOB, but okay for the Allied player to do so against the Luftwaffe in BTR. How do you explain that line of reasoning?

Is WAD (working as designed) your way of excusing yourself of responsibility for EXPLAINING the rationale for the design?



I agree the FS in BOB has been toned down much too much. I am sure the Luft. used the tactic successfully during the Battle of Britian. The same rules should apply to both BOB and BTR.



TheElf -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 3:55:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

WAD


So you think it's fair and correct to cheat the Luftwaffe of the ability to sweep in BOB, but okay for the Allied player to do so against the Luftwaffe in BTR. How do you explain that line of reasoning?

Is WAD (working as designed) your way of excusing yourself of responsibility for EXPLAINING the rationale for the design?

Is your original post your way of assuming anyone needs to explain anything to you at all?



jomni -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 6:26:44 AM)

I do FS on landing RAF planes in BOB as well.
It's very effective if timed right.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 1:01:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

WAD


So you think it's fair and correct to cheat the Luftwaffe of the ability to sweep in BOB, but okay for the Allied player to do so against the Luftwaffe in BTR. How do you explain that line of reasoning?

Is WAD (working as designed) your way of excusing yourself of responsibility for EXPLAINING the rationale for the design?


I work nights, I had time to see you post, but not to go into any details, I replied WAD to let you know I had seen it, as you see, I posted at 9:27, I leave the house at 9:30, it is working as Designed, when I have time, I will go into details

AND who Cheated anybody out of the Ability to Sweep ?

the LW can sweep if they want to, the 110 can't, you can sweep as much as you want with any of the 109s, they don't have the legs to last too long, but they can sweep

all you got to do, is do it

Is WAD (working as designed) your way of excusing yourself of responsibility for EXPLAINING the rationale for the design?

I don't have a Responsibility to explain anything, I will, but I don't have to do

where are your fields at ?

if your using Airfields with in Range of the Allied fighters who have AS over the coastal area, then yea, WAD, PULL YOUR PLANES BACK

where are your Tac Aircraft, use them to protect your fields ?, that is what the Tac fighters are for, along with the Trainers

it also sounds like you are over using your forces, if you keep getting caught

over all, it just sounds like poor play (command and control) on your part, so you want to blame the game, you don't have to launch every Gruppen to attack the raids coming in, you can and should be holding some back, for protection, or for surprises

you say he is sitting on your airfields, is he strafing ? if he is, then he is with in range of your guns, if he is not, put more guns there, or, pull the planes back

(you know, if you play someone like Swift, or some of us other old timers, you would be seeing a lot of traps being set up)

(also, bait and switch, are pretty good, even better, when you can set the trap before hand)

also, you do have a lot of Rail Flak units, use them, that are what they are there for

you don't say what the time line is in your game, so not sure, what planes he has, or is using, but if it is 43, he not got much that has any legs with them, other then the 2 Stangs, and if they are tearing you apart, shame on you (in the Med, he will also have some Mossie FB's, nasty if they catch you, but nasty for him, if you catch him)

if he is sitting on your fields, why are you not attacking him ?

one you burn up his fuel, with out fuel, he don't have much loiter time, plus, Sweepers tend to get shot down a lot, all you got to do, is have somebody to shoot at them

also remember, there is a issue with Message reports during a sweep, not every reported kill, is in fact a kill (one of my old bugaboos for ages, we still haven't found it)

you can have 3 planes coming in to land, and have the reports tell you 10 were shot down, when only one of them were, check your losses, losses look much higher to a sweep then they really are

and to one of your other statements, NO, planes caught trying to come home to land, did not just head for another field, they fought, they ran, they died (some times, they got lucky and landed)

the Allied Fighters pilots made a living at this, they knew what they were doing, they didn't orbit right on top of the field, most planes shot down, coming in to land, were surprised

(there are lots of storied of a pilot coming in to land, only to have the flak open up around him, he would land and jump out of plane to complain about the gunners, only to learn they were firing at another plane coming to attack him, some times, you got lucky)







Nikademus -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 4:05:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge



He's hiding something. That explanation was way to in-depth.

[:D]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 4:19:16 PM)

WAD



Nikademus -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 4:49:09 PM)

SSDD



Hard Sarge -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 5:27:38 PM)

hey cannon boy, I am a part time disigner, I don't know all of the code words :)




Nikademus -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 6:05:54 PM)

Same S*it....Different Day.

[:)]



Nicholas Bell -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 6:09:46 PM)

Thank you for the extensive tactical tips. I am not claiming to be playing the best game, and these will no doubt help.

But you didn't address my question regarding the inability of German planes to redirect to another airfield. Once they are in RTB mode they are clay pigeons. And while your suggestions may help, that does take away the fact that how the program operates by not allowing some sort of initiative on the part of German aircraft makes no sense.

What I suggest (since coding the ability to return to different bases is not likely) is a "design for effect" tweak to improve the defensive capabilities of landing aircraft, or decrease the effectiveness of the attackers to less than 80-90 percent effectiveness, which is what I am recording.

I am not pushing a 100% elimination of the ability of sweeps to down aircraft in the pattern, but in BOB that is exactly what the program does by prohibiting the 110's from doing so. (yes the 109s can, but they don't have the legs to do so very effectivily) And as I noted, this design "cheat" to stop the 110 was admitted by Harley, because it was a "game wrecker".

So you are saying that the game is "working as designed" with a cheat to help the RAF. Yet you see no reason to question the same effect in BTR? They both use the same game engine. *That* is what I request an answer on. Yes, you are under no obligation to do so, but it makes me wonder why you wouldn't want to explain such an inconsistent design decision.



Hard Sarge -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 6:30:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Same S*it....Different Day.

[:)]


Dang, and here I thought it was programmer lingo, that is just forum speak

of course, I would of spent it different



Hard Sarge -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 6:52:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

Thank you for the extensive tactical tips. I am not claiming to be playing the best game, and these will no doubt help. well, it was the way you stated it, the BTR side, can change from turn to turn, even when you do everything right, any tips or enlightenment I can give, good, hope they help

But you didn't address my question regarding the inability of German planes to redirect to another airfield. Once they are in RTB mode they are clay pigeons. And while your suggestions may help, that does take away the fact that how the program operates by not allowing some sort of initiative on the part of German aircraft makes no sense. it is on a wish list for way down the road, if it can even be done, I am working on getting most of the overdamaged crashes out of the system, that should help, but the fact is, if a plane was coming in to land, it was in trouble, deverting, happens way before the coming in to land part

What I suggest (since coding the ability to return to different bases is not likely) is a "design for effect" tweak to improve the defensive capabilities of landing aircraft, or decrease the effectiveness of the attackers to less than 80-90 percent effectiveness, which is what I am recording. it has been weaken, I am one of the masters at doing this in the old game, I once knocked down 71 out of 72 planes coming in to land (island of Vis, it was pretty) no way are you going to get that many now, as I said, it may look like it, but there is a report loop, that makes it look like much more losses are being taken then really are

I am not pushing a 100% elimination of the ability of sweeps to down aircraft in the pattern, but in BOB that is exactly what the program does by prohibiting the 110's from doing so. (yes the 109s can, but they don't have the legs to do so very effectivily) And as I noted, this design "cheat" to stop the 110 was admitted by Harley, because it was a "game wrecker". don't blame Harley, that one is on me, I haven't found any cases of 110s being used on Freehunts that way in the BoBs (in Poland and France yes) so I told Harley to put a block on them, but part of this, you miss the point, it is not the legs that are needed, it is timing, all timing, if your in the right place, at the right time, 1 minute of fuel is all you need, you can patrol for 2 hours and not see a thing, so it is worthless, timing is the deal

So you are saying that the game is "working as designed" with a cheat to help the RAF. Yet you see no reason to question the same effect in BTR? They both use the same game engine. *That* is what I request an answer on. Yes, you are under no obligation to do so, but it makes me wonder why you wouldn't want to explain such an inconsistent design decision.

again, it is not a inconsistent decision, the 110 wasn't used for sweeps, so I blocked it, it is not a idea, to help the RAF, , if I would of found any planes in the BTR side, that never did a sweep or a rodeo, circus or rhubarb I would of put a block on them also

Harley may be the only to see it first hand, but I am very onesided in this, when it comes to Fanboyism, I am a gameboy, not alliedboy, or a LWboy





Nicholas Bell -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 7:50:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge


Now I understand where you are coming from. Thanks for the explanation - and your patience.



JapLance -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 8:16:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

don't blame Harley, that one is on me, I haven't found any cases of 110s being used on Freehunts that way in the BoBs (in Poland and France yes) so I told Harley to put a block on them, but part of this, you miss the point, it is not the legs that are needed, it is timing, all timing, if your in the right place, at the right time, 1 minute of fuel is all you need, you can patrol for 2 hours and not see a thing, so it is worthless, timing is the deal

again, it is not a inconsistent decision, the 110 wasn't used for sweeps, so I blocked it, it is not a idea, to help the RAF, , if I would of found any planes in the BTR side, that never did a sweep or a rodeo, circus or rhubarb I would of put a block on them also



I'd really like to have the 110's in BoB capable of doing sweeps. As you point out, they did it in Poland and France, so they could have done it again over England. I really see no point in keeping the player from using them this way if they want to. Germans stopped using Stukas over England after a few days, but we can continue using them, if we want to. Let the player decide.



Creeper -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/20/2009 8:37:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: JapLance

I'd really like to have the 110's in BoB capable of doing sweeps. As you point out, they did it in Poland and France, so they could have done it again over England. I really see no point in keeping the player from using them this way if they want to. Germans stopped using Stukas over England after a few days, but we can continue using them, if we want to. Let the player decide.


That's exactly my position. [:)]
Let the player decide...



HMSWarspite -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/21/2009 2:52:20 PM)

I think you may be missing the point. Reading between the lines, the implication is that they break the game... maybe because of the 'planes wont divert issue'. Although I am surprised, because a guaranteed 110 cap over an airfield sounds like points on a stick to me:). Thus I suspect they took it out cos it is a game breaker...



Lanconic -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/21/2009 4:19:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: HMSWarspite

I think you may be missing the point. Reading between the lines, the implication is that they break the game... maybe because of the 'planes wont divert issue'. Although I am surprised, because a guaranteed 110 cap over an airfield sounds like points on a stick to me:). Thus I suspect they took it out cos it is a game breaker...


That is not the only change...try this.....

Use the American escorts to strafe a LW airfield at say 5k
Now use the ME109 to do the same to say Biggin Hill.

I can tell you right now, there is no comparison. None at all.
And yet its the same mission, w the same tactics.

A bit odd I should say



Hard Sarge -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/21/2009 4:45:22 PM)

you kind of need targets to do something



Creeper -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/25/2009 8:08:07 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

... it has been weaken, I am one of the masters at doing this in the old game, I once knocked down 71 out of 72 planes coming in to land (island of Vis, it was pretty) no way are you going to get that many now, as I said, it may look like it, but there is a report loop, that makes it look like much more losses are being taken then really are


Sarge, are there any plans in the pipeline to correct the report loop, that bluff us to shoot down more aircrafts as we really do? I don't like screen messages that tell not the truth... [&:]




Hard Sarge -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (11/25/2009 8:18:11 PM)

we got to find it, I have had it on my list from the start (that was a old bugaboo from the old game I hated) Harley still has not found it

(but he has been working on other stuff)

if we can find it, yes



Rusty1961 -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (2/4/2010 9:12:59 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Nicholas Bell

Thank you for the extensive tactical tips. I am not claiming to be playing the best game, and these will no doubt help.

But you didn't address my question regarding the inability of German planes to redirect to another airfield. Once they are in RTB mode they are clay pigeons. And while your suggestions may help, that does take away the fact that how the program operates by not allowing some sort of initiative on the part of German aircraft makes no sense.

What I suggest (since coding the ability to return to different bases is not likely) is a "design for effect" tweak to improve the defensive capabilities of landing aircraft, or decrease the effectiveness of the attackers to less than 80-90 percent effectiveness, which is what I am recording.

I am not pushing a 100% elimination of the ability of sweeps to down aircraft in the pattern, but in BOB that is exactly what the program does by prohibiting the 110's from doing so. (yes the 109s can, but they don't have the legs to do so very effectivily) And as I noted, this design "cheat" to stop the 110 was admitted by Harley, because it was a "game wrecker".

So you are saying that the game is "working as designed" with a cheat to help the RAF. Yet you see no reason to question the same effect in BTR? They both use the same game engine. *That* is what I request an answer on. Yes, you are under no obligation to do so, but it makes me wonder why you wouldn't want to explain such an inconsistent design decision.


Nicholas,
You are correct. How allowing the Me110 to sweep is a "game wrecker" and somehow allowing the Allied forces to do it at will in Btr isn't cuts right to the heart of the problem.

As it stands now, the logical solution is what Gary allowed the LW player to do in USAAF-allow each squadron upon take-off to designate a different landing base.



Rusty1961 -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (2/4/2010 9:15:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Creeper


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

... it has been weaken, I am one of the masters at doing this in the old game, I once knocked down 71 out of 72 planes coming in to land (island of Vis, it was pretty) no way are you going to get that many now, as I said, it may look like it, but there is a report loop, that makes it look like much more losses are being taken then really are


Sarge, are there any plans in the pipeline to correct the report loop, that bluff us to shoot down more aircrafts as we really do? I don't like screen messages that tell not the truth... [&:]





Imaginary conversation with the LW boys in the control tower:

Hans:"Don't you think we should inform our planes their field is under heavy attack and to land somewhere else?"

Deitrich:"Nah, these first 71 planes weren't given fair warning, why should the other planes be given chance?"


Yes, it is as silly as that.



Farfarer61 -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (2/8/2010 5:18:36 PM)

In BTR my Allied Sweeps are fatal to the Allied fighters - not the LW. They dive below 13K to attack the AF and get slaughtered. Even if the fields are active, with planes known to be on the ground the refuelling, zero kills are achieved. Very occasionally, "landing kills" are obtained. I have tried varying Traget and Patrol points, but the fighters always dive into the flak and get creamed. What am I doing wrong?



Rusty1961 -> RE: Fighter Sweep - Program Exploit or Great Way to Wipe out the LW? (2/9/2010 2:24:31 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Farfarer

In BTR my Allied Sweeps are fatal to the Allied fighters - not the LW. They dive below 13K to attack the AF and get slaughtered. Even if the fields are active, with planes known to be on the ground the refuelling, zero kills are achieved. Very occasionally, "landing kills" are obtained. I have tried varying Traget and Patrol points, but the fighters always dive into the flak and get creamed. What am I doing wrong?


It sounds like you are trying to sweep airbases which have a significant amount of Flak. Don't sweep those bases. You can tell which bases have said flak by doing recon flights in the days prior to the sweeps.



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