Mortar Speed (Full Version)

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Almogavar -> Mortar Speed (11/10/2000 2:24:00 AM)

My first employ in the Spanish army like "teniente" (1st or 2nd Lt. in U.S. Army)was commanding a support platoon in a paratrooper coy. In 1981 that platoon had two 81mm mortars (ECIA), three MMG (MG1A3, MG42 with standard NATO ammunition)and three bazookas (INSTALAZA Mod.65, the M20 with different name). Well, the weight for ECIA mortars was 18Kg for base plate (1 man), 15Kg-barrel(1 man), 12Kg-tripod (1 man) and ammunition (two men). This weight probably standard in all armies is really simmilar to MMG squads: MG-11Kg(1 man), tripod-14Kg(1 man) and ammunition (two men). I have to say that never the MG squads were faster than mortar squads. after the instruction jump we walked 20 Km and everybody arrived together. Why in SP 81mm mortars move only one hex? (I know that I can change the speed with OOB editor is only curiosity) Thanks. Almogavar



Wild Bill -> (11/10/2000 3:53:00 AM)

A very valid point in my view. I somehow did not realize it had been reduced to 1 move point. It has the same movement value as the 4.2, which is a heck of a lot bigger. If there were any penalty at all, it should come in the first turn you order them to move (disassembly of the weapon, loading it) say to one hex. After that I would prefer a normal move factor or maybe one less than the normal infantry move. The same with MMGs. I know the .50 is ponderous, so it's move should be slowed. The gun itself must weight at least 75 pounds. A grognard will confirm or deny this [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Tripod and ammo are also much heavier than the .30 cal. In an advance into battle itself, I avoid including .50 caliber machine guns as part of the advancing force. I prefer to equip the units with .30 caliber. But I have done it. I say that in case someone wants to point that out to me in a scenario [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games



Almogavar -> (11/10/2000 4:41:00 AM)

"If there were any penalty at all, it should come in the first turn you order them to move (disassembly of the weapon, loading it) say to one hex. After that I would prefer a normal move factor or maybe one less than the normal infantry move. The same with MMGs." I fully agree with you Wild Bill. I donīt know whats the 0.50 exactly wheight cause I used this HMG only on vehicles (M113, etc), but the manual said 38.22Kg (84.0lb) [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/img] . Thanks again. Almogavar



Paul Vebber -> (11/10/2000 4:50:00 AM)

Lt mortars (60mm and below) were given 4 MPs becasue of teh significantly lighter ammo weight. All other mortars were given 1. If someone wants to spend a few months researching specific weights and speeds we'll be glad to use them, but we only have so much time to devote to this. There is no way to give different movement allowances to a single unit. [This message has been edited by Paul Vebber (edited November 09, 2000).]



Latka -> (11/10/2000 4:58:00 AM)

quote:

The gun itself must weight at least 75 pounds
From what I recall, the receiver of the M2 .50cal weighs 75lbs! It was a mother%&$* to carry that thing on a hump, even if only for a short while! Andy



Almogavar -> (11/10/2000 6:04:00 AM)

Thank you Paul. I will try to research weights and characteristics. With americans, soviets, british, frenchs or germans mortars donīt will be difficult. Other countries is a diferent question. Almogavar



Wild Bill -> (11/10/2000 6:33:00 AM)

Ah Paul Vebber! Welcome! Nice to see you in the discussion. I accede to your knowledge.



Kluckenbill -> (11/10/2000 8:56:00 AM)

WB, you wrote:
quote:

If there were any penalty at all, it should come in the first turn you order them to move (disassembly of the weapon, loading it) say to one hex.
Can you do that? It sounds like a good idea but I didn't think the code would support that feature. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !



MECH ENGINEER -> (11/10/2000 10:42:00 AM)

NCPANTHER THE FOLLOWING IS FOR YOU. According to FM 5-34, M-2 HB w/ tripod, 128 lbs. Thats without ammo, a basic load is 2100 rds. The ammo is god awfully heavy. I was shuttling it out to our M113A3's this summer during an aggressor action this year at AT. Also, a M29 81mm mortar, 98 lbs. 4 rds/box at 20 lbs per box 120 rd basic load. Brace yourself, for this one, 4.2 in, M30, 670 lbs!!!! That's barrel 157 lbs, bridge 170 lbs, base 193 lbs, standard 60 lbs and rotator 90 lbs. Thats without ammo, 160 rd basic load about type is a different weight anywhere from 24 lbs to 28. Take in to consideration, this is current US Army standards according to FM 5-34. ------------------ "When do we get our flamethrowers, Top?"



Fredde -> (11/10/2000 3:04:00 PM)

Just out of curiousity, how heavy is a mortar shell? If three men are busy carrying the mortar itself, it means that (for example the German 81 mm mortar which comes with 40 HE shells and a 5 men crew) the other two chaps have to carry 20 HE shells each. Personal equipment, personal weapons, ammo for the personal weapon etc for everyone. Is there other gear coming with the mortar (positioning equipment etc..)? Not sure how advanced these things were/are. Sounds like a very demanding job anyway muscling all this around by foot. Of course, i'm used to handling 90 kg heavy 155 mm grenades, luckily we had ammo trucks ;-)



Lars Remmen -> (11/10/2000 5:36:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Wild Bill: After that I would prefer a normal move factor or maybe one less than the normal infantry move. The same with MMGs. I know the .50 is ponderous, so it's move should be slowed. The gun itself must weight at least 75 pounds. A grognard will confirm or deny this [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img]
If my memory serves me correctly, the barrel of a .50 is 12.7 kg The feeding mechanism is around 25 and so is the bipod. So the gun plus an extra barrel is around 75kg or 150+ pounds. Without any ammo... Heavy, especially when two men have to move it while crawling. Trust me, I've been there *G* ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide



Lars Remmen -> (11/10/2000 5:38:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fredde: Just out of curiousity, how heavy is a mortar shell? If three men are busy carrying the mortar itself, it means that (for example the German 81 mm mortar which comes with 40 HE shells and a 5 men crew) the other two chaps have to carry 20 HE shells each. Personal equipment, personal weapons, ammo for the personal weapon etc for everyone. Is there other gear coming with the mortar (positioning equipment etc..)? Not sure how advanced these things were/are. Sounds like a very demanding job anyway muscling all this around by foot. Of course, i'm used to handling 90 kg heavy 155 mm grenades, luckily we had ammo trucks ;-)
I think the 81mm mortar shell is around 3.5 pounds, but I will have to look it up once I get back from my little vacation. ------------------ Lars Nec Temere - Nec Timide



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