Tactics against allied Subs?

Tactics against allied Subs? (Full Version)

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Bahnsteig -> Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 11:47:04 AM)
Hi, its mid Jun 42 in my PBEM and I have lost about 80 ships to Subs. I couldnt develop any tactic to get rid of them, the Subs just stay in their hexes and there isnt anything i can do, they shoot at everything that moves by. Mostly direct in front of my ports. East of Tsushima (104 56) two allied Subs were lingering there for 10 turns, so I tried to get them with a combination of planes and ships. I put three squadrons with 12 Sonia, 36 Val and 27 Mary on ASW patrol only at that hex and three ASW-Patrols lingering there for some turns with 4 DDs, and 2x 1DMS with 3SC. Without any success, some ASW attacks but nothing to force them to retreat. With all those Subs sitting in front of my ports and without any chance to hunt them down, Ill be out of ships when the dud-rates drop. Any ideas?

khyberbill -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 12:25:36 PM)
If I recall correctly, I read in a thread they were going to tweak ASW in Patch 2, however, I don't know if it will make it more or less effective. Large, well escorted convoys appear to be the best defense.

Sharkosaurus rex -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 12:33:38 PM)
I'm up to 20th March 42 and I have only lost three subs to date- none to DC! The risk is so meagre I very often go across any shallow waters to attack shipping. I thought I have placed them aggressively because of small damages. The subs have faced many attacks. So maybe Jap DCs are a little weak. They get many hits that don't cause any damage. Japanese might have more hits with better experience- but they are already getting hits- but no sinkings. [image]local://upfiles/14378/D8DDA52CDC2D41AFBCDEF93F4845B15D.jpg[/image]

Sharkosaurus rex -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 12:37:16 PM)
Here is a shot of my most damaged sub by DCs. Heading back to PH after taking five hits outside Manilia. [image]local://upfiles/14378/23E0707D938E4EE88B98BB886F9CD761.jpg[/image]

John Lansford -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 12:40:10 PM)
I've had several of my Allied subs damaged by DC attacks, but few sunk. I think that number is less than half a dozen and it's July 42 already. OTOH, I've sunk well over a dozen Jap subs mostly by DC attack; both the Dutch and British DD's know how to prosecute a sub contact!

Menser -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 2:21:26 PM)
Shark, Should be WAD until June of 43 and the May incident. http://pwencycl.kgbudge.com/D/e/Depth_Charge.htm

SuluSea -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 2:33:11 PM)
Game is in late April '42. I've had atleast 8 damaged enough to limp back for repairs 4 cripples but shipboard repairs kept them afloat and one on the verge of sinking from a DC attack but looks like it will make it to Capetown the sub close to sinking was in a shallow water hex as were the others save one. I also had two damaged pretty badly from at sea air attacks. I can't speak on how to best fight them but DC attacks will work especially in shallow water hexes, you may need to check the aggressiveness and experience of the crew/ship and have your best sub search air assets at your busiest ports, I had a single sub chaser really lay down the law on me within the past few turns> 7 hits.

Bahnsteig -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 3:50:04 PM)
Thx for the answers, so im not the only one with this problems. All my commanders have been hand-picked by leaddership, navalskill and aggressivnes but nothing helps to drive those subs back. It would be nice if the subs would have some penalties in shallow waters, or when they dont change positions for some turns and so on. Ill wait for patch 2 and hope there will be enough changes to solve that problem.

Chickenboy -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 4:12:55 PM)
1. Strike Manila on December 7 instead of Pearl Harbor. You'll miss some old BBs and good airplanes, but can wipe out up to 25 submarines if you do it right. 2. Have hunter/killer groups with 4 subchasers. You can pair them with a DD with superior sonar detection if that helps. Use them to patrol common chokepoints that your opponent challenges. 3. Air ASW is helpful. Large numbers of mediocre ASW aircraft at low altitude will generate sightings (reduced SS effectiveness) and generate some hits. Larger ASW values are very dangerous over time to submarines in range. 4. Patrol these chokepoints with YOUR submarines. It's not uncommon for SS to engage one another in this game. While the tables can sometimes be turned on you, it's a worthwhile gamble. 5. Mines. Lots of 'em. They will serve to restrict access to your ports under size 3. You may get an aggressive submarine captain that will "react" into a minefield while following one of your TFs. 6. Port attacks. What base is your opponent using for a forward submarine base? Find it and destroy the port through LBA or carrier strike. You may get a few subs that were in port awaiting repair. 7. Kill AS. AS ships greatly improve the usefulness of submarines in the game by providing them a forward operational ability. Kill them and submarines have to spend more and more of their time in transit rather than stalking prey. 8. Prosecute the he** out of any submarine found in shallow water hexes. They're easier to spot and they cannot evade attack as easily. They're easier to damage or sink.

Rising-Sun -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 5:14:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: khyberbill If I recall correctly, I read in a thread they were going to tweak ASW in Patch 2, however, I don't know if it will make it more or less effective. Large, well escorted convoys appear to be the best defense. Well i hope so, that sound kinda pooka. Infact the subs got to return to base to rearm. Maybe the Japs should have metal detectors for underwater to hunt subs, sonars can pick up anything from school of fishs to big whales.

Central Blue -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 5:40:41 PM)
my experience with subs has been much different. I play against the AI, and I assign the missions. Notice (if I have correctly linked to the screen shot) the high rate of losses by the Dutch subs that are mostly patrolling shallow waters, particularly the Malacca Straights. But subs off the Home Islands get hit pretty hard by air ASW too. [image]local://upfiles/13729/0E4647D0EE9D43749B3C83DEACCD84A4.gif[/image]

Bahnsteig -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/22/2009 7:12:13 PM)
Almost all of my bomber squadrons are on ASW. In Singapur I have 4 squadrons Sallys and they dont hit anything. Two Subs are sitting 2 hexes away since a lot of turns and my Hunter-Killer-Groups dont find anything. 12 DD, 4DMS and some SC are patrouling the hexes but nothing happen. In fact Im happy none of my DDs has been sunk by the Subs. I have some of my midgets patrolling my ports and some RO-Subs but no effect. The Subs are sitting in the Farmosa Strait, in the Sea of Japan and in front every major port where the shipping must past by. Its not hard to find the Subs, its almost impossible to hurt them. And Im not writing about sinking them. If Patch 2 wont change something about that, Im affraid with working torpedos and more Subs there wont be any Japanese ships in late 43.

moose1999 -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/23/2009 9:46:34 AM)
I'm experiencing sort of the same thing as the poster, but from the allied perspective. I'm playing the Allies against the AI. With very little effort my subs very quickly became so effective - many kills, few damaged subs - that I've decided to let the AI handle sub operations to avoid depleting the Japanese navy too much as to ruin the game...! The AI is now posting most of my subs to in-effecient defensive patrols, with me pulling out a few of them for special missions once in a while. I find controlling sub operations myself would kill the game by the time the dud-rates started to rise...

PaxMondo -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/23/2009 12:12:54 PM)
I'm playing the GUA scenario waiting for Patch 2 before a GC. While subs are hard, they are far from impossible. There are other threads here to explain how and following them works just fine for me. I'm JAP this time so, 1. Nettie's on Naval Search. low altitude, short range, narrow area. Generate lots of sightings, keep the DL high. 2. 2 - 4 ship ASW, tight patrol zones, needs to be able to replenish frequently as exhaust DC loads FAST. 3. More Netties on ASW, low altitude, short range, narrow area. More sightings and some hits. Takes 5 - 10 days to either kill or damage the sub sufficiently to drive it away. During this time, it is so busy evading that it makes no attacks on my merchant traffic. Loading up the US, I can see that I have not had many kills, but then I have only lost 1 ship to their subs. I have damaged at least 7 USN subs, so I think the tactics suggested elsewhere are effective.

Mike Scholl -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/23/2009 12:42:32 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo I'm playing the GUA scenario waiting for Patch 2 before a GC. While subs are hard, they are far from impossible. There are other threads here to explain how and following them works just fine for me. I'm JAP this time so, 1. Nettie's on Naval Search. low altitude, short range, narrow area. Generate lots of sightings, keep the DL high. 2. 2 - 4 ship ASW, tight patrol zones, needs to be able to replenish frequently as exhaust DC loads FAST. 3. More Netties on ASW, low altitude, short range, narrow area. More sightings and some hits. Takes 5 - 10 days to either kill or damage the sub sufficiently to drive it away. During this time, it is so busy evading that it makes no attacks on my merchant traffic. Loading up the US, I can see that I have not had many kills, but then I have only lost 1 ship to their subs. I have damaged at least 7 USN subs, so I think the tactics suggested elsewhere are effective. I really LOVE this! Using Japanese assets in a totally ahistorical manner for ASW work. I say ahistorical because while they certainly had the ability, they had neither the training, doctrine, or willingness to use them that way. Then again, just because the historic commanders made poor choices is no reason a player should have too... Right? So I also assume that you have no problem with B-17's making naval attacks from 1000 feet... Right? They certainly could do it (and did on several occasions)..., so why put artificial restrictions on a player's tactics just because historically they tended to be too valuable for long ranged patrol and reccon to be risked it this manner. Let's hear it for the marvelous mental flexibility of the JFB! [8\|][8\|][:(]

n01487477 -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/23/2009 3:09:04 PM)
quote: Let's hear it for the marvelous mental flexibility of the JFB! Mike come on man ... [8\|]

findmeifyoucan -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/23/2009 3:48:23 PM)
Yes, I agree it is more dangerous for a sub commander to operate in shallow water as you can't dive deep but why stick around if you keep getting found and hit on? When I was playing the Americans against the AI yeah I spent a lot of time in Japanese ports, sank lots of transports and got hit on a lot in retalliation but never lost one sub. I got the hell out of there and back to port to repair. You have to keep monitoring the conditions of your subs after these attacks because the computer isn't going to tell you when your sub is close to sinking

Mike Scholl -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/23/2009 4:10:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: n01487477 quote: Let's hear it for the marvelous mental flexibility of the JFB! Mike come on man ... [8\|] "Come on" what? Isn't the analogy clear enough? [&:] Why is "stretching reality" only OK when you play the Japanese side? [8\|]

sprior -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/23/2009 4:17:00 PM)
quote: Why is "stretching reality" only OK when you play the Japanese side? Like pulling a sub into port, re-arming, re-fueling, re-victialling, then carrying out a full maintenance and resting the crew and the next day sailing again.[:'(]

SqzMyLemon -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/23/2009 5:41:14 PM)
In a PBEM game I'm playing as Japan, I'm constantly adapting my anti-submarine tactics. We are in Dec 24/41 and I've sunk roughly 5 Allied subs according to intel and damaged more I'm sure. I started out with PB and SC huntings groups to chase down any sighted subs, that worked initially and kept their heads down while my invasion fleets were most active. Now my opponent has switched his focus to patrolling around the Japanese Home Islands. So I've started to switch PB's to escort duties and am using air assets to at least so far spot the subs, I've not had as much success depth charging as late though. I'm shortening the radius of my air units on ASW, see if they spend more time attacking the subs now then searching for them. I have not destroyed any by air as yet as far as I know, but will see what tweaking my air units will accomplish. I've really just started focusing on using the air units now, there wasn't a need when he wasn't around Japan. Overall, there are good and bad days...I've been losing ships to sub attack periodically and others not a thing. Depends a lot on how your opponent is playing them, if he's aggressive with them you can make him pay. Any spotted subs get air and sub chaser attention immediately, be aggressive patrolling for them by air and keep anti-submarine naval forces primed at key points to respond to any attacks or sightings. I think air is the key here though, dedicate those squadrons at Japan, Truk and Cam Ranh Bay to ASW and Naval search, try to limit the range to 4-6 hexes, how ever far out your merchants are from the coast and I think you will start to see results or a lessening of sub activity. I hope to start seeing air kills on subs soon!

stuman -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/24/2009 2:09:51 AM)
Sorry, delayed post wierdness.

stuman -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/24/2009 2:11:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo I'm playing the GUA scenario waiting for Patch 2 before a GC. While subs are hard, they are far from impossible. There are other threads here to explain how and following them works just fine for me. I'm JAP this time so, 1. Nettie's on Naval Search. low altitude, short range, narrow area. Generate lots of sightings, keep the DL high. 2. 2 - 4 ship ASW, tight patrol zones, needs to be able to replenish frequently as exhaust DC loads FAST. 3. More Netties on ASW, low altitude, short range, narrow area. More sightings and some hits. Takes 5 - 10 days to either kill or damage the sub sufficiently to drive it away. During this time, it is so busy evading that it makes no attacks on my merchant traffic. Loading up the US, I can see that I have not had many kills, but then I have only lost 1 ship to their subs. I have damaged at least 7 USN subs, so I think the tactics suggested elsewhere are effective. I really LOVE this! Using Japanese assets in a totally ahistorical manner for ASW work. I say ahistorical because while they certainly had the ability, they had neither the training, doctrine, or willingness to use them that way. Then again, just because the historic commanders made poor choices is no reason a player should have too... Right? So I also assume that you have no problem with B-17's making naval attacks from 1000 feet... Right? They certainly could do it (and did on several occasions)..., so why put artificial restrictions on a player's tactics just because historically they tended to be too valuable for long ranged patrol and reccon to be risked it this manner. Let's hear it for the marvelous mental flexibility of the JFB! [8\|][8\|][:(] Why thank you Mike for the compliment. And feel free to take your planes and do whatever you want to with them [:)]

PaxMondo -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/24/2009 7:58:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo I'm playing the GUA scenario waiting for Patch 2 before a GC. While subs are hard, they are far from impossible. There are other threads here to explain how and following them works just fine for me. I'm JAP this time so, 1. Nettie's on Naval Search. low altitude, short range, narrow area. Generate lots of sightings, keep the DL high. 2. 2 - 4 ship ASW, tight patrol zones, needs to be able to replenish frequently as exhaust DC loads FAST. 3. More Netties on ASW, low altitude, short range, narrow area. More sightings and some hits. Takes 5 - 10 days to either kill or damage the sub sufficiently to drive it away. During this time, it is so busy evading that it makes no attacks on my merchant traffic. Loading up the US, I can see that I have not had many kills, but then I have only lost 1 ship to their subs. I have damaged at least 7 USN subs, so I think the tactics suggested elsewhere are effective. I really LOVE this! Using Japanese assets in a totally ahistorical manner for ASW work. I say ahistorical because while they certainly had the ability, they had neither the training, doctrine, or willingness to use them that way. Then again, just because the historic commanders made poor choices is no reason a player should have too... Right? So I also assume that you have no problem with B-17's making naval attacks from 1000 feet... Right? They certainly could do it (and did on several occasions)..., so why put artificial restrictions on a player's tactics just because historically they tended to be too valuable for long ranged patrol and reccon to be risked it this manner. Let's hear it for the marvelous mental flexibility of the JFB! [8\|][8\|][:(] Mike, Play your way and let others enjoy theirs. No reason for the petty sarcasm. The game is about "what-if?" to many of us. If you want to re-create your "Golden Years" of USN domination, enjoy. No one will heckle you as you watch the world slowly play out history again and again and again and again. That's your idea of fun and I will be the last person to disallow you. Just please respect others in their manner of enjoyment. And if I miss-interpreted your post, my sincere apologies.

FatR -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/24/2009 10:25:44 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl I really LOVE this! Using Japanese assets in a totally ahistorical manner for ASW work. Yeah. The final fate of Wahoo, among others, sunk by exactly the same combination of air patrol and ASW attacks diracted by it, attests how "ahistorical" it is. quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl I say ahistorical because while they certainly had the ability, they had neither the training, doctrine, or willingness to use them that way. Mostly they didn't have the ability. By the time subs became a real problem (it should be noted, that, unlike AE, the faulty torpedo problem wasn't completely fixed for most of 1943, and at this time Allied subs weren't in the range for effective patrols against convoys from SRA - the problem you can avoid by placing subs in chokepoints and not moving them, unless the opponent brings ASW taskforces to chase them out), tney were already overwhelmed by multiple threats and by the time their countermeasures started to appear in numbers, Allied airpower and surface forces already were in position to attack Japan's lines of communications (exhaustion of crews and shortages of everything, including fuel and time for training, also grew into a major factor). quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl So I also assume that you have no problem with B-17's making naval attacks from 1000 feet... Right? If they are modded to their historical level of durability? No problem. Currently, that's a gamey tactics, because the game seems to be poor at modeling problems of high-altitude interception, therefore B-17s are made ahistorically tough to survive, therefore they actually can avoid unacceptable casualties when making such runs against even a large combat taskforce (or flying mid-to-low level bombing missions unescorted).

Mike Scholl -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/24/2009 11:01:54 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: PaxMondo Mike, Play your way and let others enjoy theirs. No reason for the petty sarcasm. The game is about "what-if?" to many of us. If you want to re-create your "Golden Years" of USN domination, enjoy. No one will heckle you as you watch the world slowly play out history again and again and again and again. That's your idea of fun and I will be the last person to disallow you. Just please respect others in their manner of enjoyment. And if I miss-interpreted your post, my sincere apologies. There was "sarcasm" involved..., though I wasn't trying to be petty. Just pointing out a reality of this forum. Hardly anyone even squeaks when a suggestion is made that the Japanese be used in an unusual or a-historic manner to achieve an "edge" in play..., but if the Allied side finds a "loophole" then the roars of anguish are heard from He11 to Huddersfield. I understand perfectly the desire to "role-play" alternatives to the historic events..., and that the Japanese side is very attractive in this sense as it allows "playing the underdog" (always the favorite role to play). I like to "role-play" in my head as much as anyone. I just find it more satisfying to do so within the historic constraints of the roles I play. Personally, I have no objections to the strategy and tactics you suggest as a legitimate "what if". Had the IJN taken it's collective head out of it's behind and looked closely at the Battle of the Atlantic and not just Taranto, they would certainly have seen the need to beef up their ASW doctrine and assets. And I try never to "abuse" Allied 4-engined bomber assets in my games. Do I ignore the 6,000 or 10,000 foot altitude "agreements" so beloved in "house rules"? You bet I do..., but only during the first 3-4 months of the campaign when the "try anything" phase of desperation is occurring in the East Indies. This is the historic reality of that time. After that it's just "driving a truck through a loophole" (a loophole which has been rapidly closing through every game patch). That I don't want to do... Even in AE, Allied Admiral Phillips and Force Z are FORCED to sail into "harms way" at the outset of the game (excuse being that this is what Force Z did historically). But Japanese Admiral Nagumo suffers no such restraints in hanging around PH for a week (excuse being that he COULD have done so). This kind of dichotomy of rational drives me insane. Either FORCE historical actions on BOTH sides..., or allow players freedom of choice on BOTH sides. That's my real point..., fairness. I'm all for closing rules loopholes that allow rediculously a-historic results on both sides. And I'm all for letting the players make choices on asset utilization when they don't involve "gaming the loopholes in the rules". If you go back to the discussions involving B-17 abuse in the original release of WITP, you will find me advocating a heavy reduction in the numbers available..., because 2by3 got it wrong and there were way to many in the game. Today, when AE's rules allow the Japanese "Artillery Deathstar" to crush China I'm opposed to that as well. Garbage is garbage, no matter which side it helps.[8D]

Bahnsteig -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/24/2009 12:00:17 PM)
Hi Mike, take your hate elsewhere if you cannot follow the topic. Subs sitting in enemy ports for days without being attacked is unhistorical or unrealistic, it doesnt matter. If you have problems with the deathstar or with your B-17 start your own thread. I dont wont to start the 1000thb AFBvsIFB story in here. It isnt a problem when allied subs sink ships in the open sea, but its a problem with the game mechanics when the subs can sit in ports and shallow waters without any danger. Right now I have enemy subs in Rabaul, Saporro, Tulagi and always on the same positions near Singapur, Balakapan and Hakodate, all mined and with ASW forces. Its easy to find, almost impossible to damage them. If its realistic or historical like some people think, the war should have been over in late 43.

Puhis -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/24/2009 12:25:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl I really LOVE this! Using Japanese assets in a totally ahistorical manner for ASW work. I say ahistorical because while they certainly had the ability, they had neither the training, doctrine, or willingness to use them that way. Then again, just because the historic commanders made poor choices is no reason a player should have too... Right? Sometimes it takes ahistorical manners to get even historical results. [:)] My observation is that japanese ASW is very bad. In my game it's 5/42, and only one allied sub is sunk (by I-boat). Depth carges are useless. I have tens of ASW attacks, hundreds of DC dropped, and only one hit so far... PBs, SCs, DDs, all useless. Allied don't have any problems sinking my I-boats. So I'm going to try that ASW planes+ships combination.

Mike Scholl -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/24/2009 1:01:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bahnsteig Hi Mike, take your hate elsewhere if you cannot follow the topic. quote: Personally, I have no objections to the strategy and tactics you suggest as a legitimate "what if". Had the IJN taken it's collective head out of it's behind and looked closely at the Battle of the Atlantic and not just Taranto, they would certainly have seen the need to beef up their ASW doctrine and assets. What "hate"? I agree with you that the situation you describe is idiotic and calls for some creative thinking. But I also think the answer is to make subs operating in such a manner more vulnerable to ASW no matter who's side they are on. I've seen Japanese subs doing exactly the same thing..., and Allied ASW really was a lot better than the Japanese.

Bullwinkle58 -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/24/2009 1:09:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Bahnsteig Subs sitting in enemy ports for days without being attacked is unhistorical or unrealistic, it doesnt matter. It isnt a problem when allied subs sink ships in the open sea, but its a problem with the game mechanics when the subs can sit in ports and shallow waters without any danger. I too think surface ASW, and air ASW, needs to be more lethal, for both sides. But I'll also note that the "port" hex is 40-miles across. It's perfectly possible to hide a WWII fleet boat in that much water, no matter the depth.

Mike Scholl -> RE: Tactics against allied Subs? (11/24/2009 11:23:01 PM)
Couple of points on the effectiveness of Allied ASW vs. Japanese ASW. During the "Battle of the Atlantic" Germany lost over 800 U-Boats to Allied ASW. About 15,000 tons of Allied Shipping were lost for each U-Boat sunk...., basically about two ships sunk for each sub lost. During the Pacific Campaign, American subs only managed to sink about 35% as much Japanese tonnage as the U-Boats had..., but for each US Sub sunk by the Japanese 122,000 tons of Japanese Merchant Shipping was lost (or given the smaller average size of Japanese ships, almost 40 ships sunk per sub lost). This is even with the torpedo problems that hamstrung US subs for much of the war. Clearly Allied ASW technique, tactics, and equipment were several magnitudes better than anything managed by the Japanese.

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