First Impressions (Full Version)

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TexHorns -> First Impressions (11/25/2009 7:21:10 PM)

I am an old board game war gamer. I play A3R quit a bit. Was looking for a computer strategic level WW2 game to play solo. Grisby's effort wasn't satisfying. Also have made forays into HOI and Making History. All just weren't what I was looking for.

My initial reacton to TOW is positive. I like the DP's, shades of A3R. Research isn't mind boggling. Combat is clear to understand.

I have read the thread concerning France/Vichy France. I have played several times as germany and have not been able to get Vichy option to spawn prior to december 40, with an april invasion. I did notice last time that taking nantes prompted the Vichy option before all the vp's had been taken. So maybe next time with a focus on nantes I will get it to spawn sooner.

Using diplomacy I was able to get Persia to go Axis and enter the war. I thought I might be able to put some pressure on Britain from the east and get them to slow their roll through libya. When I reloaded and made persia human, I built an infantry division and tried to deploy it. The game would not allow me to deploy the infantry division. I got an error message syaing either their was no supply line to the main supply source, or there was not an empty city to deploy the unit. I tried moving eixisting forces out of cities, but that didn't allow deployment either. The next turn the unit was no longer in the deployment que, it was just gone. PP's were still reduced at amount it cost to build it. I would think Persia would have there own supply source Tehran. Anyone else seen this occur? Does a designer have an explanation or a possible fix?

Overall so far, for the money, this is good value game. I get tired of paying $40-60 for a game, only to be disappointed.




SeaMonkey -> RE: First Impressions (11/25/2009 7:59:07 PM)

Not sure if you're a Texican [8D]or a Texican't[>:], but since you mentioned ATR and didn't mention SC then I have to mention it as the best AI for this GS scale.  Going solo against the AI on expert +2 experience will initially give you everything you can handle, but I would suggest you try the "normal" setting first.

By the way, our good friend pzgndr has made an excellent rendition of ATR with the SC editor, I'm sure you'll appreciate its dynamics if you pick up the PDE edition.  Currently he is working on the new improved ATR based on the Global model which of course has not yet been released.

But then again ......if you're the latter.....maybe you better pass.[;)]




cpdeyoung -> RE: First Impressions (11/25/2009 8:05:29 PM)

The Persian unit will be deployable next week. The first week a nation enters is rather special, and it takes awhile for SMPs and production to become "normal". Next week will be better.

Good luck, ToW is great fun.

Chuck




TexHorns -> RE: First Impressions (11/26/2009 6:44:32 PM)

I tried SC when it first came out years ago. It was okay bit didn't hold my attention past a couple of plays. I haven't tried the latest rendition. I may give t a try since there is a A3R mod.




TexHorns -> RE: First Impressions (11/26/2009 6:45:36 PM)

Hey Chuck, thanks for the reply. Funny thing is in another game I was playing I did the same thing with Persia and was able to build and deploy right away.




TexHorns -> RE: First Impressions (11/26/2009 6:51:15 PM)

I have another observation/question. I group my ships together in fleets of 4-7 ships. When naval combat comes up about 75% of the time my ships are singled out or fight in pairs against 4-7 ships of the allies. Why doesn't the whole fleet fight together since they are grouped. It seems my ships are fighting 1-3 or 1-4 and getting picked off.

Also, is it just me or does it seem like the AI builds mostly divisions, putting them at a distinct disadvantage vs my corps?

Wish list: A list of the events and what they mean. I see that other countries are getting events, but there is no explanation of what the effects are.




Manalishi -> RE: First Impressions (11/26/2009 8:15:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TexHorns
I have another observation/question. I group my ships together in fleets of 4-7 ships. When naval combat comes up about 75% of the time my ships are singled out or fight in pairs against 4-7 ships of the allies. Why doesn't the whole fleet fight together since they are grouped. It seems my ships are fighting 1-3 or 1-4 and getting picked off.


I have no answer for this. I notice it too. It may have to do with the fleet formation - regular or raider - but I am not sure how. You could try larger fleets. It doesnt make the naval game unplayable or even unbalanced, in my opinion. It is merely odd.

I look forward to reading any explanations.
~

quote:

ORIGINAL: TexHorns
Also, is it just me or does it seem like the AI builds mostly divisions, putting them at a distinct disadvantage vs my corps?


"Disadvantage" is subjective. While divisions lack the individual punch and stamina of corps, they have more Action Points, which makes them more mobile. Divisions are also relatively cheaper to deploy, upgrade and strategically move, including amphib and sea transport, than corps. So, it is up to the player to decide which formation is more "advantageous." A full strength, fully supplied L3 or L4 armored division with a good leader is a pretty powerful unit by itself.
~

quote:

ORIGINAL: TexHorns
Wish list: A list of the events and what they mean. I see that other countries are getting events, but there is no explanation of what the effects are.


I am defintely in agreement with this. A list of not only the effects, but the triggers and/or prerequisites as well.
~

Just my two cents. I know there are others who have more experience and intimate knowledge of the systems and mechanics thatt can provide more concrete information.

Nic to see ya, Tex. Go Horns. Beat Huskers.


<M>






Tomokatu -> RE: First Impressions (11/26/2009 9:33:31 PM)

quote:

A list of not only the effects, but the triggers and/or prerequisites as well

I'm not so sure that this would be a good idea at all. I suspect it would lead to "gamey" play where people play TO the rules, rather than make their own decisions.
I would be in favour of an in-game warning system of some sorts which warns, "if you do THIS, then THIS has an increased probablity of happening."




Manalishi -> RE: First Impressions (11/27/2009 12:14:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL:  Tomokatu
I suspect it would lead to "gamey" play where people play TO the rules, rather than make their own decisions.


I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Are we not already doing this in several of the AARs where the Soviets declare war in late 1940 or early 1941 in order to mitigate the effects of the Shock events? Are there other consequences to this Soviet action?

Gameyness aside, my main thought is that I cannot make informed decisions because I do not know what all the events are, or how they are triggered. This is because the information is not provided in any usable form. Since I do not know, it makes it difficult to formulate a long term strategy. I am essentially playing a guessing game. Based on what I know from historical events, if I do X, then A, B or C should happen, but I do not know any such thing actually will happen. When it does, I ask myself, "did I do that, and if so, how?" When it does not, I ask myself, "how can I help this along?"

Of course, such knowledge can sometimes be gained through repetitive gameplay.

Playing to such known triggers and consequences doesnt seem to be such a bad thing, but I cannot really say for sure. It seems logical to me that the political and command and control entities of the time would have a pretty good idea what the possible consequences of their actions would be, and were therefore able to take calculated risks. The player, however, is not provided with this same data.

To be honest, I tend to think in terms of multiplay, and so I might have come across as if the AI were capable of cognitive response to complex player evaluations and actions. In terms of solo play, you are probably right, or closer to right than me in this regard.
~


quote:

ORIGINAL:  Tomokatu
I would be in favour of an in-game warning system of some sorts which warns, "if you do THIS, then THIS has an increased probablity of happening."


I fail to see how this is better or worse than the above. The only additional requirement this version demands is that the player actually play through at least once to discover the triggers and their outcomes. After that, they theoretically have full knowledge. Perhaps there is value in this.

I am from the camp that believes the more information in the hands of the player, the better. We are not playing a strictly hypothetical game where the frontier beckons. The setting is solidly entrenched within historical parameters. We know what the potentials of the situation were, and the game is devised to provide us with many of the same challenges our historical counterparts faced. Therefore, we should be provided with the same historical data they had so that we can make our own decision about how to proceed.  


That is all I am wishing for.


  <M>




TexHorns -> RE: First Impressions (11/27/2009 2:45:08 PM)

Man and Tom,

I am less in favor of full knowledge of triggers and warnings. I like a little suspense. However when an event does trigger for other countries, I would like to know what the effects on the game or that country is. I frequently see "work work work" triggered. Also Britain frequnelty gets a submarine related event. I think we should be given the results of the events so we know what is happening.

I notice when I put subs as raider in the atlantic I get very little effect on pp losses for britain. I assume when the sub event is triggered it's due to my subs in the atlantic and britain is porbably losing pp's. however I have no idea for sure if that is happening because the event announcement doesn't tell me anything.

Mal- Hookem Horns! Dodged a trap game last night. I'll be at the Big 12 champ game next Saturday. BTW my wife is from Nebraska......tough week ahead for me...LOL.




NefariousKoel -> RE: First Impressions (11/28/2009 7:43:44 AM)

RE:  Fleets

Regular formation - they will stay together
Raider formation - the group will split up & try to attack enemy shipping (though still listed in same group).  Supposed to get a bonus to avoiding enemy formations however it still seems to be near impossible at low naval tech levels to avoid them.




Tomokatu -> RE: First Impressions (11/28/2009 8:30:27 AM)

quote:

however I have no idea for sure if that is happening
That's just part of the normal Fog of War. You never know exactly what's happened(ing) and some of what's reported isn't accurate either.

Many games do that - I'm thinking particularly of SSG's old "Carriers at War".




elmo3 -> RE: First Impressions (12/2/2009 2:37:36 PM)

So for those who bought the game, would you buy again if you had a second chance?  The $20 is not a problem for me but I don't want to put the time into learning the game if most people are not happy about their purchase.  My plan would be to mostly play PBEM with a long time gaming friend so we're each looking to buy if it's a good game.  Thanks for any feedback.




gwgardner -> RE: First Impressions (12/2/2009 2:58:11 PM)

Especially if you're playing PBEM, this game is a must buy. Look at the PBEM AARs. Loads of fun. The AAR being done by Chocolino and I (mostly Chocolino!) is actually with rev 1.5, and the game has had significant improvements beyond that.

In that game my USSR is barely holding on, in 42, against powerful German armored thrusts, while as the US I have just launched an amphibious assault in northern Spain. Fighting is going on in the Balkans, in the Caucasus, Turkey, and strategic bombing against targets in France, Germany, and Italy.

This game is a blast as PBEM, and then take a look at my or Chucks solo AARs, as an example of play against the AI. While the AI is not as challenging at 'normal' levels, I still haven't gotten tired of playing against the AI, with all the variations of strategic and tactical choices available.

I have never even gotten to the point of modding much, but there are tons of possibilities there also - witness all the counter mods and especially Udbridge's ETO mod for PBEM.




elmo3 -> RE: First Impressions (12/2/2009 3:30:25 PM)

Thanks for the reply.




Tomokatu -> RE: First Impressions (12/2/2009 8:45:48 PM)

quote:

would you buy again if you had a second chance


Yes!
This has been my first (and now second) pbem. I got soundly thrashed in the first one (as Axis) and I've made a serious mistake with major consequences as GB in this second one. Playing against a human is far more challenging than playing against the AI.

The advantages to playing an AI game are firstly, the rapid turnaround for a gameturn which lets you explore a grand strategy and secondly, it's the best tool for learning the game mechanics.




cpdeyoung -> RE: First Impressions (12/2/2009 9:01:51 PM)

This is a fine game, and more. With the aid from the developers, and dedicated modifiers it has become a lab for World War Two simulation. You already can pick from multiple riffs on the basic theme, and more are in the works.

The AI can give you a fun game, but it is not strong enough to beat a good human. I do not expect a simulation game AI to do that - yet. PBEM play is great fun, as many can attest. There are techniques of solo play, including switching sides at crucial points, which can make for great fun. This is a game worth learning, and especially since it comes pretty easily to a player with experience in war games of this sort, board or computer.

Chuck




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