RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE

RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (Full Version)

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LGKMAS -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/7/2020 2:48:19 AM)
So how do I find the device? I have looked at the Database for ASW weapons. It shows name, accuracy, depth and effect with load cost, all rather large numbers. none of which would allow me to say that that DD has an ASW value of 2. When I look at DDs, take the Benson 2/43, it shows ASW weapons by name, how many mounts, ammo and effect eg 300. Again, the numbers are rather large and would not allow me to add up to say 8. I look at the I screen and look under industry/resources/ etc and all that gives me is production numbers. There must be a screen I have not stumbled on yet?

RangerJoe -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/7/2020 3:01:51 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LGKMAS So how do I find the device? I have looked at the Database for ASW weapons. It shows name, accuracy, depth and effect with load cost, all rather large numbers. none of which would allow me to say that that DD has an ASW value of 2. When I look at DDs, take the Benson 2/43, it shows ASW weapons by name, how many mounts, ammo and effect eg 300. Again, the numbers are rather large and would not allow me to add up to say 8. I look at the I screen and look under industry/resources/ etc and all that gives me is production numbers. There must be a screen I have not stumbled on yet? Look at the ship screen shot. The number of ASW weapons is the ASW value. The amount of ammo does not matter, just the mounts.

LGKMAS -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/7/2020 3:09:50 AM)
It seems that the number of mounts is a game fudge. The HDMLs that are there in early 1942 are supposed to have 4 DC Throwers each for a value of 4. In real life they had 12 DC that were dropped rather than thrown. in fact the recoil from DC throwers would probably have smashed the wooden hulls. I then went and looked at a late war 1945 DE. 4 DCT each side, two racks off the rear and one hedgehog for a value of 11.The Hedgehog is rated as only 1 ASW mount, yet it was a game changer and much more effective than simply tossing DCs left right and centre. Nevertheless, I am happy to accept that the game designers went the way they did to simplify things.

Kull -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/7/2020 4:14:32 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LGKMAS It seems that the number of mounts is a game fudge. The HDMLs that are there in early 1942 are supposed to have 4 DC Throwers each for a value of 4. In real life they had 12 DC that were dropped rather than thrown. in fact the recoil from DC throwers would probably have smashed the wooden hulls. I then went and looked at a late war 1945 DE. 4 DCT each side, two racks off the rear and one hedgehog for a value of 11.The Hedgehog is rated as only 1 ASW mount, yet it was a game changer and much more effective than simply tossing DCs left right and centre. Nevertheless, I am happy to accept that the game designers went the way they did to simplify things. It's not a fudge - number of mounts is just one of MANY variables. As BBfanboy points out, others include crew experience and Captain skills, and yes, perhaps some hidden approximations. And the devices themselves matter. You have the Allied Spreadsheet - go look at the devices tab. The Hedgehogs you mentioned are deadly not because of "number of mounts", but because they have accuracy ratings far in excess of the other ASW weapons. And most important are detection levels. An unseen sub can't be attacked, much less killed. Try not to think of the game as a set of numbers. How did ASW REALLY work during this period? Hunter-killer groups (as opposed to convoy escorts) worked only when they were aided by intel or were directed by air spotters. Sending a group of destroyers out to hunt subs absent those factors will be just as ineffective in-game as it would have been in real life. Play the game using real-world tactics and you'll find that your in-game results will be pretty similar. Play it as if were a pile of numbers that have to be individually sifted and evaluated and you'll just get a headache.

LGKMAS -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/7/2020 5:55:10 AM)
Sorry but I think you miss my point. If the number of mounts determines the ASW rating, then the Hedgehog is under-rated. The DE example I cited from l945 is rated as 11. based on RJ's post, every mount counts. So the DE has 4 throwers on either side . 4 x2 = 8. Plus two racks off the stern . 2 x 1 = 2 . Total so far = 10. And one hedgehog!. That means the hedgehog is only worth 1 as the total seems to be 11. 10 for conventional DC racks and throwers and 1 for the Hedgehog! Back in 1942, a HDML has four throwers each side so has an ASW rating of 4x2 = 8. Unless the ASW ratings really don't matter, and I cannot imagine why that would be. Or perhaps RJ has jumped to a wrong conclusion and I can't see that happening either. So if RJ is correct, then the number of mounts determines the ASW rating. The success or otherwise of attacks will, as you point out, depend on a number of other factors. Captains ratings, accuracy, effect, and so on. But I would rather send a vessel rated as ASW 8 than one Rated as ASW 1, even with a huge difference in Captains rating that favour the ASW 1 vessel. Yes, I saw the increased accuracy of the Hedgehog and mousetrap and the effect. But I am not certain how this translates to ASW ratings. I have also looked at commanders but a large number of my ASW vessel commanders are grey and cannot be changed. A reasonable number are yellow and I have done some changes there. However, they cannot all be Johnny Walkers! Do the ratings change over time? I don't intend sending out hunter-killer teams wandering around just yet. maybe in a year or two. However, there is a pesky IJN SS TF around Horn island that I need to deal with. If I put a couple of reasonably high rated ASW TFs patrolling Torres Strait, then I should be able to at least deter the IJN SS Tf? There always seems to be a IJN Sub from Horn Is across to Port Moresby so saturating that area with ASW patrols should keep them occupied. My ASW air patrols keep spotting the subs but can't seem to do anything about them. I am not trying to play with numbers but to understand the system. In real life, as the CinC Pacific fleet and elsewhere, I would have a file a couple of feet thick on commanders abilities, have access to weapons experts to advise on capabilities of various classes of ships and have years of personal experience to assist me. All I have at the moment are raw ASW ratings for ships to tell me which are the best ones to use for the purpose. And a few Captains ratings that I may or may not be able to fix. The raw numbers allow me to see whether it is worthwhile sending this ship off as an ASW screen or best kept back to add to the AAW screen. And so on.

Alfred -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/7/2020 8:16:40 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LGKMAS Sorry but I think you miss my point. If the number of mounts determines the ASW rating, then the Hedgehog is under-rated. The DE example I cited from l945 is rated as 11. based on RJ's post, every mount counts. So the DE has 4 throwers on either side . 4 x2 = 8. Plus two racks off the stern . 2 x 1 = 2 . Total so far = 10. And one hedgehog!. That means the hedgehog is only worth 1 as the total seems to be 11. 10 for conventional DC racks and throwers and 1 for the Hedgehog! Back in 1942, a HDML has four throwers each side so has an ASW rating of 4x2 = 8. Unless the ASW ratings really don't matter, and I cannot imagine why that would be. Or perhaps RJ has jumped to a wrong conclusion and I can't see that happening either. So if RJ is correct, then the number of mounts determines the ASW rating. The success or otherwise of attacks will, as you point out, depend on a number of other factors. Captains ratings, accuracy, effect, and so on. But I would rather send a vessel rated as ASW 8 than one Rated as ASW 1, even with a huge difference in Captains rating that favour the ASW 1 vessel. Yes, I saw the increased accuracy of the Hedgehog and mousetrap and the effect. But I am not certain how this translates to ASW ratings. I have also looked at commanders but a large number of my ASW vessel commanders are grey and cannot be changed. A reasonable number are yellow and I have done some changes there. However, they cannot all be Johnny Walkers! Do the ratings change over time? I don't intend sending out hunter-killer teams wandering around just yet. maybe in a year or two. However, there is a pesky IJN SS TF around Horn island that I need to deal with. If I put a couple of reasonably high rated ASW TFs patrolling Torres Strait, then I should be able to at least deter the IJN SS Tf? There always seems to be a IJN Sub from Horn Is across to Port Moresby so saturating that area with ASW patrols should keep them occupied. My ASW air patrols keep spotting the subs but can't seem to do anything about them. I am not trying to play with numbers but to understand the system. In real life, as the CinC Pacific fleet and elsewhere, I would have a file a couple of feet thick on commanders abilities, have access to weapons experts to advise on capabilities of various classes of ships and have years of personal experience to assist me. All I have at the moment are raw ASW ratings for ships to tell me which are the best ones to use for the purpose. And a few Captains ratings that I may or may not be able to fix. The raw numbers allow me to see whether it is worthwhile sending this ship off as an ASW screen or best kept back to add to the AAW screen. And so on. The ASW rating does not represent the value of the ASW equipment. When you have AE questions, I suggest you search the forum for my answers to the issue. This thread: https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=4408826&mpage=1&key=asw� is one of many where I have dealt with this issue. AE is full of string variables which players erroneously take to mean literally what the heading says. Some of these players just never learn, or are unprepared to ditch their erroneous preconceptions, that AE incorporates many abstractions. You should never choose your naval ASW assets on the basis of the displayed ASW rating. The characteristics of the individual ASW devices make a mockery of that displayed number. Alfred

LGKMAS -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/7/2020 9:54:52 AM)
Hi Alfred, Thanks for the input. I do realise that there are many variables for ASW. The more sophisticated ASW systems have yet to surface in my play. I am only up to Feb 1942. So the only ASW weapons to hand are either DC Throwers or DC racks off the stern. Given that, It makes sense to me to pick a vessel that has an ASW rating of 4 over one that has one of 1. The reason is that they have more ASW weapons. Two side throwers and two racks off the stern means a bigger and hopefully better pattern more likely to gather in an enemy sub. As opposed to a single rack dropping DC off the stern. Once more sophisticated systems start appearing, such as hedgehogs, then I will need to look carefully at each escort vessel. Not certain when that happens as the devices list suggests hedgehogs are already in service. As my captains get better and so does the crew, maybe a DD of 2 will produce better results than a KV of 4? For the moment, I have no other way of assessing how effective my ASW vessels are.

BBfanboy -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/7/2020 10:35:42 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LGKMAS Hi Alfred, Thanks for the input. I do realise that there are many variables for ASW. The more sophisticated ASW systems have yet to surface in my play. I am only up to Feb 1942. So the only ASW weapons to hand are either DC Throwers or DC racks off the stern. Given that, It makes sense to me to pick a vessel that has an ASW rating of 4 over one that has one of 1. The reason is that they have more ASW weapons. Two side throwers and two racks off the stern means a bigger and hopefully better pattern more likely to gather in an enemy sub. As opposed to a single rack dropping DC off the stern. Once more sophisticated systems start appearing, such as hedgehogs, then I will need to look carefully at each escort vessel. Not certain when that happens as the devices list suggests hedgehogs are already in service. As my captains get better and so does the crew, maybe a DD of 2 will produce better results than a KV of 4? For the moment, I have no other way of assessing how effective my ASW vessels are. Think of the chance of getting a hit or near miss on a sub as being a combination of the number of "shots" (ASW devices) times the accuracy value x the effect value. All that gets compared against the sub skipper's Naval Skill at evasion and how good the DL was on the sub before the attack. There would also be abstracted randoms for thermocline layers in the water, depth of water, etc. But trying to get a single value that says how good the ship itself is at ASW is, as Alfred indicates, a headache that cannot be totally resolved. From my experience with the game, good captain and crew is what gets the results, with a strong assist from patrol aircraft getting detection.

LGKMAS -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/8/2020 5:07:05 AM)
Thanks for all the input. I do understand ASW. I had some very good instructors back in the day. However, when I cannot change my commanders, because they are greyed out, and if they are all roughly the same ratings, then I think it a good idea to use the ASW vessel rating. Why? Because the thermocline etc will still apply, the sub commanders rating at evasion will be the same. I cannot change my ASW commanders ratings, at least with what I have in the region at the moment. The only variable I can alter is the number of ASW weapons being used. So a ship with a rating of 4 is better than one with a rating of 1, everything else being the same. I am looking at those commanders in the region and starting to sort out who might make a good ASW commander and making a list of their ships. re the Commanders ratings. Do they change over time? I take it there is no Training aspect as we have with pilots? Is it OJT for these guys? What about those greyed out? Are we doomed to have them in charge of the same ship for the rest of the war?

RangerJoe -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/8/2020 1:11:18 PM)
If the ship is at sea, you can't change the commander.

BBfanboy -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/8/2020 9:49:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: RangerJoe If the ship is at sea, you can't change the commander. And in small ports, you cannot check the commander ratings until you dock the ship or disband it in port. I don't know why that is so when you can check LCU and ACU leaders any time, and change them when you want. It is a real PITA when your flagship gets torpedoed and you cannot check which captain in the remaining ships has the best Naval Skill to lead the TF.

Rondor11 -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/14/2020 8:40:48 PM)
Ok, I know I am shameless but has anyone ever shared a savegame file that has all of Kull's amazing work done? Don't beat me up too bad for asking.

Kull -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/15/2020 5:31:08 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rondor11 Ok, I know I am shameless but has anyone ever shared a savegame file that has all of Kull's amazing work done? Don't beat me up too bad for asking. I did, like 10 years ago (lol), but that file contains the moves from the first version of the spreadsheet, and most have been improved upon since. Plus - as I've noted many times - you won't learn anything from using this, since it will simply transfer your Day 2 confusion to Day 3! However, it might still be helpful as a reference, in case you weren't certain about some of the instructions and wanted to see what they would look like in-game.

Rondor11 -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/16/2020 1:15:48 AM)
Thank you, very kindly. It does offer some insights for me. I thank the wargaming gods for Youtube every day. This game is especially deep and has a ASL level-of-commitment, feel from a naval perspective

LGKMAS -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/23/2020 12:10:35 AM)
Okay, things are going reasonably well. The blasted AI keeps popping up with little landing forces everywhere and I am running around trying to plug gaps. Managed to get most of the DEI merchant fleet out and I only seem to lose one AK or similar per week. So my merchant fleet seems to be growing, but so does the number of units I need to ship. Spent most of yesterday trying to work out who goes where and how to get them on ships. The initial rush to plug gaps with whatever I had now means a rather complicated reshuffle of forces to bring fragments together and replace the fragments with viable forces, rather than just a speedbump. I have had some good turns, some due to extremely good luck and others I would like to hope because I saw a need to put forces there. I was worried about PNG etc and established 3 cruiser groups rotating through the area. When my Naval Search spotted ships near Rabaul, I chanced a bombardment. That blundered into three different and largely unescorted Japanese landing groups and I managed to sink most of them, about 15 over two days of running battles. Then he keeps coming for Port Moresby and I am having a great time rotating those three Cruiser groups between refuelling/rearming and going to and from a Patrol zone near Milne Bay. He regularly runs into my cruiser patrols about once a week and the worst I have suffered is the loss of 2 DDs overall while he seems to lose 2-3 AKs plus an escort or two every time. Then I thought to send a 2 CV TF to SoPac. I was just two days away from Canton when he tried to land there. Well, the garrison held him off and I managed to run in and sink another 4 or 5 AKs and to my surprise SORYU!!. He pulled out and ran. I needed fuelling so I had to hang around Canton for a few days. Then he turns up at Viterapui with another lightly escorted Amphib force. Off I go and sink another 5 AKs and misc. At the same time, over in the Bay of Bengal, my POW/Repulse SCTF has run in to do a bombardment and bumped into a 6 AK force at Moulmein, sinking them all, and then on the way out hit another AK force headed out of Rangoon and sank anther 5 AKs. This has got me thinking. On my estimation, based on the Int reports and realising they are open to FOW, I think I have sunk about 25% of his starting AKs and a sizeable number of AKLs. And it is only March 1942! What effect is this going to have on him? Short term, possibly means he has enough resources stockpiled in the HI to manage for a while but all these supply ships sunk should mean that his Amphib forays must be getting a bit difficult. And in the longterm, it must surely have an impact on his production chains and supply ability? Any thoughts on this?

traskott -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/23/2020 12:31:54 AM)
Against AI you should let it take the historical zone of influence. A seasoned player can begin the Reconquista 1/1/42 preventing Japan even to take DEI/Singapore. And you are making good progress too, may be too much for the poor AI. Let them take P.M., Rabaul, maybe Canton, Tabiteua and all DEI and Birmania. Then at 06/01/42, begin the push. Take your time ;) .

LGKMAS -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/23/2020 1:11:57 AM)
The AI already has Rabaul, Palembang has fallen as has the Celebes and Ambon, Parts of Dutch New Guinea are also gone. Batavia is Japanese as is Burma. Bandoeng is fighting but should fall shortly. PI are down to Bataan and Manila and both of those are on their last legs. Airfields shut, no supplies etc. Ocean Is and Nauru are long gone and Baker is Japanese. There are Japanese parties at Shortland and also at Lunga and Tulagi, although no bases there as yet. Madang and Gasmata are Japanese. Midway suffers raids and of course Wake is long gone. The AI tried a landing at Noumea but was crushed. although the landing ships managed to escape. I am using the next harder than Historical. I would have thought this was a good result for the AI, apart from losing all those AKs? I must be rolling good on the dice as my Dutch, RN and USN S Boats are taking a regular toll on shipping and every now and then the other USN subs manage a hit. More often they do a gun action. The IJN heavies have yet to suffer, although, as I said I did manage to sink Soryu. However, the Int report now does not list that as a sinking so I might be mistaken. They have lost, according to the Int report, one CA and 4 CLs and that is all for the main battle line. Again, this looks to me like a good result for the IJN AI! As to waiting until June to do anything, I think it will take to at least then to get things properly organised. My turn checklist is now up to 42 items and growing.

LGKMAS -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/24/2020 10:55:52 AM)
The time seems to be approaching Monsoon season in Burma, or so a number of people have told me. Apparently this is both a good thing in that Japanese will find it harder to keep supply up and to move cross country and bad in that I suffer from the same as well as affecting air missions. Yet, try as I might, I cannot find what monsoon actually does. I have looked at the Manual under Weather and Air missions and weather. I have scanned movement and combat. But I cannot seem to locate what Monsoon actually does. Any hints or pointers to the manual?

Yaab -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/24/2020 11:36:31 AM)
LGKMAS, please post your question in the General Forum. I have tried searching the manual using "Monsoon" as the keyword and got no results.

51st Highland Div -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/27/2020 10:54:48 AM)
What an amazing piece of work. As a returning player from the start this will be super handy in getting set up as an Allied Player.[&o] PS has anybody tried to print this out (apologies in advance)

LGKMAS -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/27/2020 12:07:37 PM)
I did but first I took out all the Soviet units. That cut it down considerably to about 2/3rds of the original. I decided that the Soviets were unlikely to come into play until historical time in most cases so I could worry about them 1600 turns down the track. By which stage I would hope the war was decided one way or the other. I don't have the luxury of a split screen or a separate screen so printing was the only way to go. Be aware if you do try this that a number of cells do not have word wrap enabled, especially over to the right where it lists where they should go or the patrol pattern or the search arc. and unless you are looking out for them, you may miss a few things. I discovered this after I had printed everything and was trying to place items in the right Ops Mode or search arc or whatever. Mt fault for not checking first. While I may now decide to send a few units to different locations than Kull, I did agree with the general strategy Kull adopted, although I have modified it a bit as time went on and things developed. However, it was a great boost to be able to look at a unit and be able to make a decision about it.

51st Highland Div -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/27/2020 1:20:50 PM)
Excellent, thanks for the reply LGKMAS [:)]

BBfanboy -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/27/2020 6:37:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: LGKMAS I did but first I took out all the Soviet units. That cut it down considerably to about 2/3rds of the original. I decided that the Soviets were unlikely to come into play until historical time in most cases so I could worry about them 1600 turns down the track. By which stage I would hope the war was decided one way or the other. I don't have the luxury of a split screen or a separate screen so printing was the only way to go. Be aware if you do try this that a number of cells do not have word wrap enabled, especially over to the right where it lists where they should go or the patrol pattern or the search arc. and unless you are looking out for them, you may miss a few things. I discovered this after I had printed everything and was trying to place items in the right Ops Mode or search arc or whatever. Mt fault for not checking first. While I may now decide to send a few units to different locations than Kull, I did agree with the general strategy Kull adopted, although I have modified it a bit as time went on and things developed. However, it was a great boost to be able to look at a unit and be able to make a decision about it. You don't have to do much with the Soviets because you cannot move the units anyway. Just decide which bases you want to grow bigger or fortify and set that, then leave the land units to help build or rest/train in place. Set air units to train in GrdB or NavB/NavT etc. Range 0, 100% training. Done.

RangerJoe -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/27/2020 6:42:50 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: BBfanboy quote: ORIGINAL: LGKMAS I did but first I took out all the Soviet units. That cut it down considerably to about 2/3rds of the original. I decided that the Soviets were unlikely to come into play until historical time in most cases so I could worry about them 1600 turns down the track. By which stage I would hope the war was decided one way or the other. I don't have the luxury of a split screen or a separate screen so printing was the only way to go. Be aware if you do try this that a number of cells do not have word wrap enabled, especially over to the right where it lists where they should go or the patrol pattern or the search arc. and unless you are looking out for them, you may miss a few things. I discovered this after I had printed everything and was trying to place items in the right Ops Mode or search arc or whatever. Mt fault for not checking first. While I may now decide to send a few units to different locations than Kull, I did agree with the general strategy Kull adopted, although I have modified it a bit as time went on and things developed. However, it was a great boost to be able to look at a unit and be able to make a decision about it. You don't have to do much with the Soviets because you cannot move the units anyway. Just decide which bases you want to grow bigger or fortify and set that, then leave the land units to help build or rest/train in place. Set air units to train in GrdB or NavB/NavT etc. Range 0, 100% training. Done. Add pilots when they become available.

LGKMAS -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/28/2020 10:13:57 AM)
When it was a choice of printing out 600 sheets or 400 sheets, I'm afraid I went for the cheaper option. As I said, I assumed that if the soviets had to come in on this, the Wallies were screwed. And I plead guilty in that I was a first timer who really had no idea what effect the Soviets had on the game. Yes, as a military Historian, I know what did happen but assuming the WItp lasted to late 1945 was not a good outcome for me as the allied forces. I also thought that if the Soviets had to come eventually, early 1942 was not essential for them.

51st Highland Div -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/29/2020 9:48:40 AM)
I think I'll pass at printing out all those pages and just select what i need [:D]

Kull -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (4/29/2020 5:05:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: 51st Highland Div I think I'll pass at printing out all those pages and just select what i need [:D] Good plan! Printing this thing out would consume a small forest. Highly recommend that you use either a second monitor or a second PC and review the spreadsheet on one while updating the game on the other. It also helps to change the cell color in column B to indicate which rows you've completed - this is going to take a while and you don't want to waste time trying to figure out which moves you made and which you didn't! Good luck.

Nowi Ribak -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (8/22/2020 6:20:54 PM)
F+uck me the setup takes so long, I started yesterday afternoon and am not yet finished (~70%). @Kull Just started a campaign & your spreadsheet is a godsend. Thank you very, very, very much for your detailled work and the many hours you surely put in to create this document. Best regards to the US! [:)]

rustysi -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (8/22/2020 8:10:19 PM)
quote: the setup takes so long, I started yesterday afternoon and am not yet finished (~70%). As IJ the first turn can easily take me a week.

RangerJoe -> RE: Allies Set-up Spreadsheet for AE (8/22/2020 9:15:38 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rustysi quote: the setup takes so long, I started yesterday afternoon and am not yet finished (~70%). As IJ the first turn can easily take me a week. That is because of nap times and [sm=00000436.gif] times, you old Geezer!

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