RE: Indipendent Units (Full Version)

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elmo3 -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 11:03:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: critter

I don't understand why the ind. units are assigned to hq's and are assigned randomly. You can move whole armies when, where you want to. Decide who they're attached to, even sack the corps/army commanders...yet hope 1 of 18 units in the hq reserve get into the battle.
Seems to me a unit could go thru the whole war in "reserve" and never fight if the die rolls where right.
Can they be assigned manually to your fighting units? Can you assign shot up Units to reserve?


Yes you can manually assign support units, to a German division for example. However the appropriate leader must get initiative to use those units in a battle. That is beyond the control of the player but of course you can improve your chances by having your leaders with good initiative in the right place and assigning them some support units.

"Reserve" status is a whole different concept and I don't think it applies to support units. Not sure right now if support units can be held back from combat other than by reassigning them to a higher level HQ further from the fight.




elmo3 -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 11:07:03 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

I like the feature of Korps/Army HQs having units assigned to them, which is how it worked in WIR. If WitE is going to be the same, then these assigned units will protect the HQ from direct attack and be available to re-enforce other units that the HQ is controlling. Especially in defence, you will not know where an attack may fall and you will want the HQ to have assigned units, which could be used by the AI to back up your attacked units. I would like to be able to manually assign units into HQs, where I think they will be of best use, even if units are initially automatically assigned. Will newly raised units first be assigned to a higher HQ, for the player to re-distribute to lower HQs of your choice ? [:)]


HQ's alone in a hex will displace if next to an enemy combat unit regardless of support units directly attached. The answer to the rest of your questions is generally yes without going into all the details.




MengCiao -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 2:09:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

The tricky (and interesting) aspect of the simulation for me will be to see how quickly the Soviets can put together a good (army level at least) command structure to use their tangible resources (such as army-level support units).


A German corps was often worth more than the sum of its parts, due to the "synergy" bonus given by the German operational and tactical system. More units meant more chances of free flowing battles with ad hoc forces and more possibilities in general.

A Soviet Army was often worth less than the sum of its parts, because the leadership was so poor that, say, 8 Rifle divisions were used as a giant armed mob (in all honesty, a Rifle division often wasn't much more than an armed mob), using numbers rather than the possibilities given by having more units to use in an attack. Even those Guards Mechanized and Tank Corps were often more big than flexible, an unstoppable wave of men and machine crushing depleted German formations.

There are historians who say that the Germans were "outgeneraled" by the Soviets during, say Bagration. In my opinion, the Germans were more often outgeneraled by their own generals and often Hitler than by the Soviets as even in 1945, a determined Soviet assault could still be stopped as long as there was a force to stop it with. The main problem was, of course, that such a force wasn't there. Fighting and winning battles you can't lose doesn't make you a good general.



This all may be true, but it seems unwise to assume that this sort of reading of the situation needs to be built into the game from the ground up. It seems to me that the treatment of support units (in HQs and assigned by commanders of variable abilities, with "commander" here perhaps being a shorthand
method for showing the work of communications and staffs and training) might possibly allow for the Soviet player to build up armies that can be as synergistic as a German force (say a corps) of roughly similar size. The Soviets themselves were aware of their problems in late 1941 and early 1942 and fielded simplified rifle divisions and kept support units at the army level precisely in order to get the most out of what they had in terms of support and C&C. My only suggestion about how to make this work at least potentially is that improvement in Soviet communications and communications training and experience be made explicit rather than being absorbed into "commanders" or "morale"...The Soviet player might for example have the option of spending admin points on communications nets or even phantom com nets (as was done for deception) in order to improve the responsiveness and flexibility even of second-rate commanders and third-rate formations.




Cavalry Corp -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 4:32:09 PM)

I cannot see why only 5 units may work at one time

That should depend on the quality of the HQ leadership etc

There is more than enough "space " to deploy 100 nevermind 5

Cav




Cavalry Corp -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 4:40:03 PM)

I would also like to see the display in some sort of order with Nato symbols so we can see 5 aritillery units etc
Some sort of order when you need to view them fast

BTW I think we should do away with the word gun and replace it with artillery or better still use the proper term for each nation

Also non motorised would be better replaced with the word horsedrawn with the appropriate symbol



Cav




elmo3 -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 4:46:28 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

I cannot see why only 5 units may work at one time

That should depend on the quality of the HQ leadership etc

There is more than enough "space " to deploy 100 nevermind 5

Cav


I may have stated it incorrectly. The HQ can provide up to 5 and a combat can have up to 3 of it's own so that makes 8 possible. I'll have to check on whether that is the absolute max or whether there can be more if multiple units are in on an attack/defense.




Cavalry Corp -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 4:50:44 PM)

So if there are two DIVS attacking or defending then its 6 plus 5 = 11 ?

Cav




elmo3 -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 4:52:45 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

So if there are two DIVS attacking or defending then its 6 plus 5 = 11 ?

Cav


I'm checking. As you can imagine the manual we are using in alpha is constantly changing.




Joel Billings -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 4:55:24 PM)

Each German division or Soviet Corps (combat unit, not corps HQ) can have up to 3 support units directly attached. These units will always participate in combat with the unit it is attached to. Support units that are attached to a HQ may participate in combat if the leader of the HQ makes an initiative check and the HQ is within 5 hexes of a combat involving units reporting to the HQ (distance does not matter, it did at one time, but we removed that rule many months ago). In order to be committed from a HQ, support units must also normally pass a die(6)>support units already committed in order to be committed to a battle. In battles over light-urban and heavy-urban hexes, the defending support units must pass a die(18)>support units already committed in order to be committed to the battle. So 6 is the max support units from a HQ unless in urban terrain, in which case the max is 18.

My understanding is if you have 3 divisions with 3 support units each in a battle, you will have those 9 support units involved, along with the possibility of up to 6 more from HQs.




Cavalry Corp -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 4:57:14 PM)

Joel

Thanks for the clarification

Cav




Rasputitsa -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 5:41:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

BTW I think we should do away with the word gun and replace it with artillery or better still use the proper term for each nation

Cav


I would also prefer to see units named as ARTILLERY, although I see that the word GUN is used to separate from units with HOWITZER equipment. Perhaps ARTILLERY (GUN) and ARTILLERY (HOWITZER), if display space allows. [:)]




Capitaine -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 7:34:30 PM)

It's not clear to me that "gun" is an incorrect term for the units. As implied in Rasputitsa's post above, guns differ from howitzers, although both are artillery. Subsets of artillery.

That said, the historical nomenclature should be used in my opinion. Don't rethink what the army in question actually called the unit.

ETA: Looking briefly at a Barbarossa OOB, I find that "Gun Battalion" appears to be the game translation used for a 10cm "Kanonen-Abteilung" (as opposed to a Feldhaubitzen-Abt., or a Morser-Abt.), which is a subunit of an Artillerie Regiment. Unless players would prefer that the game adhere to the literal German, the translation appears fairly accurate to me.




jaw -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 9:57:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa


quote:

ORIGINAL: cavalry

BTW I think we should do away with the word gun and replace it with artillery or better still use the proper term for each nation

Cav


I would also prefer to see units named as ARTILLERY, although I see that the word GUN is used to separate from units with HOWITZER equipment. Perhaps ARTILLERY (GUN) and ARTILLERY (HOWITZER), if display space allows. [:)]


The names you see in the display are their historical description (in English of course). These descriptions may or may not describe the actual weapons composing the unit.




Rasputitsa -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 9:59:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Capitaine

It's not clear to me that "gun" is an incorrect term for the units. As implied in Rasputitsa's post above, guns differ from howitzers, although both are artillery. Subsets of artillery.



No implication intended that any interpretation is incorrect, it is a minor issue which words people are most comfortable with and I would go with whatever the developers consider is appropriate from the research that has been done. In the end words and symbols are not as important as gameplay.[:)]




critter -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/23/2009 11:12:50 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

Each German division or Soviet Corps (combat unit, not corps HQ) can have up to 3 support units directly attached. These units will always participate in combat with the unit it is attached to. Support units that are attached to a HQ may participate in combat if the leader of the HQ makes an initiative check and the HQ is within 5 hexes of a combat involving units reporting to the HQ (distance does not matter, it did at one time, but we removed that rule many months ago). In order to be committed from a HQ, support units must also normally pass a die(6)>support units already committed in order to be committed to a battle. In battles over light-urban and heavy-urban hexes, the defending support units must pass a die(18)>support units already committed in order to be committed to the battle. So 6 is the max support units from a HQ unless in urban terrain, in which case the max is 18.

My understanding is if you have 3 divisions with 3 support units each in a battle, you will have those 9 support units involved, along with the possibility of up to 6 more from HQs.


Makes sense now...U guys rock [&o]




Silvanski -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/24/2009 9:10:31 AM)

Am wondering... is there a system which prevents Romanian and Hungarian support units (if they exist in the game) from ending up in the same division? That would present ahistorical situations.... They both fought against the Soviets but given the chance would easily have taken on eachother. That's why their troops were kept separated in the field




ComradeP -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/24/2009 10:28:50 AM)

If divisions can have 3 support units attached, are all the German organic divisional support units abstracted into the division's strength?

As indicated earlier, a Panzer division would have an artillery regiment (3 battalions), a motorized pioneer battalion, a motorized FlaK battalion and some form of AT at battalion size. That's 6 support battalions attached to the division at standard paper strength. I'm assuming the Axis player could add 3 more on top of that?

The Soviet player is really going to feel the pain if a Panzer division attacks a Rifle division with a grand total of 6 artillery battalions, 4 of which heavier than 105mm.




elmo3 -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/24/2009 11:16:55 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

If divisions can have 3 support units attached, are all the German organic divisional support units abstracted into the division's strength?

As indicated earlier, a Panzer division would have an artillery regiment (3 battalions), a motorized pioneer battalion, a motorized FlaK battalion and some form of AT at battalion size. That's 6 support battalions attached to the division at standard paper strength. I'm assuming the Axis player could add 3 more on top of that?

The Soviet player is really going to feel the pain if a Panzer division attacks a Rifle division with a grand total of 6 artillery battalions, 4 of which heavier than 105mm.


I'm not involved with the TO&E stuff so someone else on the team can correct me if necessary, but in looking at a typical Pz Division in '41 with no support units attached I do see artillery, Pioneers, SP flak, and AT guns listed. So I'd say yes the three support units you could attach would be in addition to the stuff you mention.




Helpless -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/24/2009 11:21:46 AM)

quote:

I'm not involved with the TO&E stuff so someone else on the team can correct me if necessary, but in looking at a typical Pz Division in '41 with no support units attached I do see artillery, Pioneers, SP flak, and AT guns listed. So I'd say yes the three support units you could attach would be in addition to the stuff you mention.


That's right, all divisional level support is included into TOE.




vinnie71 -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/26/2009 7:44:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

If divisions can have 3 support units attached, are all the German organic divisional support units abstracted into the division's strength?

As indicated earlier, a Panzer division would have an artillery regiment (3 battalions), a motorized pioneer battalion, a motorized FlaK battalion and some form of AT at battalion size. That's 6 support battalions attached to the division at standard paper strength. I'm assuming the Axis player could add 3 more on top of that?

The Soviet player is really going to feel the pain if a Panzer division attacks a Rifle division with a grand total of 6 artillery battalions, 4 of which heavier than 105mm.


I'm not involved with the TO&E stuff so someone else on the team can correct me if necessary, but in looking at a typical Pz Division in '41 with no support units attached I do see artillery, Pioneers, SP flak, and AT guns listed. So I'd say yes the three support units you could attach would be in addition to the stuff you mention.

Which is what I meant above. Eg Tiger battalions were attached to Panzer Divisions depending on the mission (excepting such units as the Grossdeutschland, Liebstandarte and Hermann Goering Pz Div which had integral Tiger Bat). The same would apply for the numerous Panzerjaeger/Jagdpanzer/Sturmgeschutz battalions or brigades, flak, Pioneer and artillery battalions vis-a-vis Infantry Div.

The Soviets had a more rigid control on such units. Artillery was held mostly centrally (a reversion to Napoleonic tactics if you ask me) with only token indipendent tank/SP battalions provided for added punch. If I remember correctly, even engineer units were held centrally.

BTW would Soviet Artillery Breaktrough divisions be implemented in game? If yes, will they be a unit like any other or show up as indipendent unit?




elmo3 -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/26/2009 1:41:06 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

BTW would Soviet Artillery Breaktrough divisions be implemented in game? If yes, will they be a unit like any other or show up as indipendent unit?


Yes, they are in the game and they are represented on the map like other divisions.




ComradeP -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/26/2009 2:13:53 PM)

quote:

BTW would Soviet Artillery Breaktrough divisions be implemented in game? If yes, will they be a unit like any other or show up as indipendent unit?


Artillery divisions showing up as independent units attachable to HQ's would be interesting, as that would mean you could attach around 240 guns and around 50 mortars to a HQ/Corps as a single attachment. That would make the people using pre-patch WitP:AE artillery deathstars blush.

quote:

Yes, they are in the game and they are represented on the map like other divisions.


Can they be combined into corps as they were historically from time to time?

Also: how are artillery divisions formed? By combining a number of existing artillery regiments/brigades into a greater whole?

Artillery being such a crucial asset for the Soviets, the system of combining smaller artillery units into bigger ones could cut down on a lot of micromanagement whilst also giving the Soviet player more strategic support options.




Rhetor -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/26/2009 3:49:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Artillery being such a crucial asset for the Soviets, the system of combining smaller artillery units into bigger ones could cut down on a lot of micromanagement whilst also giving the Soviet player more strategic support options.


Seconded.




vinnie71 -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/26/2009 11:09:39 PM)

My guess is that artillery divisions would come whole without need to combine units. From what I gather, these are no indipendent units and probably would not be attached to Corps commands but rather deployed either on the front or just behind the front...




jaw -> RE: Indipendent Units (12/27/2009 12:06:19 PM)

You are correct although the artillery divisions come as cadres and require several weeks to build up to strength.




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