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PunkReaper -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/27/2009 11:10:10 PM)

Some people seem to think that the more money they spend the better they get. Some people pay $1000 for a watch some $10.... they both tell the time. You can pay privately here which means you get certain frills. Perhaps less waiting time, appointments at more convenient times, private hospitals which may look more like hotels...etc. Perhaps a better example would be staying at a top class hotel rather than staying in an ordinary hotel.
However although those frills are nice most consultants who work for the NHS also work in the private hospitals and those consultants would be the first to say that the treatment is the same.
Now of course as in any profession certain hospitals and medics stand out from others. Places where individuals are the best in their field, who have hospitals that specialize in certain treatments and gain worldwide reputations. If I could afford it I too would visit these doctors. Unsurprisingly many of these doctors reside in the USA which is probably the most technically advanced country in the world. If you want plastic surgery go to LA? lots of practice working there etc....
So it isn't surprising some people travel to the US for treatment, but is it always necessary..... probably not.
Drat spoke about it again...

The British system is far from perfect, but I do not know of anyone who has been to USA for treatment and the only person I do know who had treatment there, (An emergency hip replacement) needed the job redone some months after returning to the Uk. This case is not representative of treatment in the USA which I am sure is mostly excellent but if I based my knowledge of the USA medical system on this one case I would surely have a distorted view.
Medical treatment in both countries can be excellent but judging by the number of doctors who are sued both sides of the Atlantic there is room for improvement

Edited to add last paragraph



LarryP -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 3:31:28 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper

The British system is far from perfect, but I do not know of anyone who has been to USA for treatment and the only person I do know who had treatment there, (An emergency hip replacement) needed the job redone some months after returning to the Uk. This case is not representative of treatment in the USA which I am sure is mostly excellent but if I based my knowledge of the USA medical system on this one case I would surely have a distorted view.


There are plenty of medical quacks over here. I hear quite often of people getting the wrong surgery done. They wake up and find their right foot amputated when they went in for a heart bypass. I'm sure what you heard was exactly true. That's one reason the doctors insurance here is so high.

Did your wife's brain tumor turn out OK? Sorry to read about that. I had one taken out in 1989. It was lovely... [;)]



Doggie -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 4:09:10 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper

I will admit I don't know much about the American system but the lies I have read on the USA websites about the Uk system recently has made my blood boil....... [:@][:@][:@].


Most of the lies I hear about the British system come from British ciitizens on our own British forum.

It's not very exclusive as a lot of Scottish trailer trash hang out, but it is as gentlemanly as a British forum on an American web site can get.



Hertston -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 4:36:37 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

It's really weird to see you post this as we here in the states have heard over and over that health care in Britain stinks! That we don't ever want to model your system.


As this hasn't been locked yet, might as well say my piece. I, too, have been angered at the blatant lies thrown about regarding the NHS as part of your own healthcare debate. The NHS is, frankly, superb in terms of coverage and quality of care, as can can vouch for by several recent experiences of both relatives and myself.

It is not, however, immune from the realities of any healthcare system; as technology improves and lives are lengthened, there is a need for more and more expensive care for more and more people. What people need to accept, at least at present, is that unless there is a radical shift in spending generally, healthcare will never be as and universally available as we all would like, WHATEVER the system in place, public, private or a mix of both. Priorities must be assessed and tough decisions made by politicians with the backing of the public. That is the tragedy of the public/private debate, it just ignores the real issues in favour of an essentially peripheral one.





Cap Mandrake -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 6:12:43 AM)

After the demonstrable excellence of the CDC (Centers for Disease Conrol) in administering the the H1N1 vaccine program, I can't wait until the federal government takes over health care.

I envision a system where health care workers have the same committment to excellence as the US Postal Service employees and the same kind of waiting lists it takes to get a passport!

But wait! There's more. It's FREE!



06 Maestro -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 6:25:00 AM)

I'm happy for you Brits that are pleased with your system. I am also reasonably happy with the American system. I agree that some changes should be made, but we could start with the government abiding by the wishes (detailed in multiple votes) of denying benefits to millions of illegals in Cal. Ballot initiatives were passed, only to be thrown out by a federal (9th Circuit) court. The state ran a 15 billion per year deficit for years. That just happened to be the estimated cost of illegals in Cal. California is now broke-actually giving tax payers IOU's. Illegals are only one part of the situation.

The U.S. is teetering on bankruptcy. I think there are much more important issues for the esteemed gentleman in Washington to attend to rather than seizing a massive segment of the economy that is still functioning.

The government has never been in a habit of being more efficient than private enterprise. Should they succeed during the next 5 years in pushing this thing through, America will never be the same. There will be a profound shift toward poverty as the tax rate goes through the roof-without any corresponding benefits. Ooop's, what am I thinking? That process is already well under way. And what was it that brought that about? Remember the real estate implosion? Remember who forced banks to make mortgage loans to people that obviously could never pay it back? In case you don't remember, it was largely the same bunch of buffoons that are cramming their love down our throats currently.

The love of do gooder's knows no bounds. For some reason, I do not feel very comfortable with that.



06 Maestro -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 6:32:06 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

After the demonstrable excellence of the CDC (Centers for Disease Conrol) in administering the the H1N1 vaccine program, I can't wait until the federal government takes over health care.

I envision a system where health care workers have the same committment to excellence as the US Postal Service employees and the same kind of waiting lists it takes to get a passport!

But wait! There's more. It's FREE!


LOL-[:D] Excellent, Captain.

I have been biting my tongue trying to avoid that looming aspect of the situation. This is just what we need; another 10 million lethargic type people with high paying government jobs. God help us.



Knuckles_85 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 6:56:50 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper

Some people seem to think that the more money they spend the better they get. Some people pay $1000 for a watch some $10.... they both tell the time. You can pay privately here which means you get certain frills. Perhaps less waiting time, appointments at more convenient times, private hospitals which may look more like hotels...etc. Perhaps a better example would be staying at a top class hotel rather than staying in an ordinary hotel.
However although those frills are nice most consultants who work for the NHS also work in the private hospitals and those consultants would be the first to say that the treatment is the same.
Now of course as in any profession certain hospitals and medics stand out from others. Places where individuals are the best in their field, who have hospitals that specialize in certain treatments and gain worldwide reputations. If I could afford it I too would visit these doctors. Unsurprisingly many of these doctors reside in the USA which is probably the most technically advanced country in the world. If you want plastic surgery go to LA? lots of practice working there etc....
So it isn't surprising some people travel to the US for treatment, but is it always necessary..... probably not.
Drat spoke about it again...

The British system is far from perfect, but I do not know of anyone who has been to USA for treatment and the only person I do know who had treatment there, (An emergency hip replacement) needed the job redone some months after returning to the Uk. This case is not representative of treatment in the USA which I am sure is mostly excellent but if I based my knowledge of the USA medical system on this one case I would surely have a distorted view.
Medical treatment in both countries can be excellent but judging by the number of doctors who are sued both sides of the Atlantic there is room for improvement

Edited to add last paragraph

I see you've never had a quality time piece. I can go to Walmart and buy a watch for $10 and have it last a year but if I bout a Movado for $600 I can keep it for 10 years. That's why they issue 10 year warranties for one and 60 days for another



Knuckles_85 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 7:01:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: LarryP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Punk Reaper

The British system is far from perfect, but I do not know of anyone who has been to USA for treatment and the only person I do know who had treatment there, (An emergency hip replacement) needed the job redone some months after returning to the Uk. This case is not representative of treatment in the USA which I am sure is mostly excellent but if I based my knowledge of the USA medical system on this one case I would surely have a distorted view.


There are plenty of medical quacks over here. I hear quite often of people getting the wrong surgery done. They wake up and find their right foot amputated when they went in for a heart bypass. I'm sure what you heard was exactly true. That's one reason the doctors insurance here is so high.

Did your wife's brain tumor turn out OK? Sorry to read about that. I had one taken out in 1989. It was lovely... [;)]

I have to call bs having had 3 surgeries I can tell you what they do. You have a nurse come in with your chart and ask you what you having done. They then pull out a pen and mark that body part. Then the anestheologist comes in and asks you the same thing and initials that body part. Then the surgeon comes in and does the same thing. 3 people and 3 initials. They all mark your chart and make sure they're all on the same page.



rhondabrwn -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 8:29:09 AM)

My daughter lives in Guam and they fly over to the Philippines for all major medical or dental work for a fraction of the US cost and the work is excellent. I have Indian friends who had family members bring me prescription drugs for about 10% of what I was being charged here in the US. You guys can argue back and forth about socialized medicine, layers of governmental bureaucracy, or even bring up fabrications like "death panels" and the rest of the wild claims thrown around in the past few months, but there is no doubt in my mind that the American system of private health insurance and self regulating pricing is a house of cards that is going to collapse on us if we don't do something. People who argue about how great their health insurance coverage is have never been faced with a catastrophic disease or injury to see just how limited it turns out to be.

I've got health insurance through my school, but with a $1,000 deductible, $75 co-pay for doctor visits, and a 70% co-pay on the major medical. If I get hositalized for anything, it's going to be ruinous. They just raised our drug co-pay this year so I've quit taking all my drugs and am relying on diet and exercise to manage my diabetes. Fortunately for me, I'm so far away from a hospital that I don't worry about hospital bills - if anything serious happens, I'll be dead before an ambulance can get out here anyway. With luck, I might make it to 65 and medicare (3 more years) and I probably won't see a doctor again till then.

We all have horror stories to share, of course, and here's a doozy. One of our teachers is a retired Geologist who made a small fortune in the oil business. He was a self-employed contractor and paid about $750 a month for a health insurance policy. He was in an auto accident and broke his back in three places. He was rushed to the nearest hospital, his Insurance company was notified when he was admitted in critical condition, but after a half million dollars in treatment and rehabilitation to get him walking again (with a mass of stainless pins in his spine) the insurance company claimed that he hadn't gone to an "approved hospital" and denied the whole claim. He lost a lawsuit against them and lost everything he had in the resulting bankruptcy. Now he's a poor teacher like me when he had thought he'd be sitting on a beach somewhere with a nice house and plenty of money.

This kind of thing happens every day in the US and IMHO anyone who argues against the need for health insurance is either (1) very rich and doesn't need to worry about anything (2)over 65 and on government run Medicare (while raving against "Government Programs" BTW)or(3)middle-class with a good job and what you think is a good medical insurance plan... who hasn't suffered a medical emergency that will devastate your family and your entire life.

I've seen both sides. I've been in situation #3 and been smug and happy about great everything is in our society... and then things fell apart and I got to see and experience how the "rest of us live" and it radicalized me on social issues. So now I'm a "recovered Republican" who is about as liberal progressive as you can get and I think that I have earned my right to that viewpoint.

I'm not particularly happy about what just got passed in the US Senate. I would personally have just gone with putting everyone on Medicare (with an opt-out option) and let the private health insurance industry sell Medicare supplement policies.

But I'm too old to worry about it for me, I just feel sorry for the millions of younger Americans and their children who won't get adequate medical care as America falls farther down the International lists on medical statistics like life expectancy and infant mortality and so forth. If we are such a great society, why aren't we at the top of all those lists? We pay more per patient than about anyone in the world and yet achieve poorer results... explain that.

Whew... didn't mean to do one of my rants. Be merciful guys, it's the holiday season and this is just my opinon on the issue. [:)]




Doggie -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 10:12:36 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

My daughter lives in Guam and they fly over to the Philippines for all major medical or dental work for a fraction of the US cost and the work is excellent.



Gee, all we have to do is send our doctors to medical school in the Phillipines and pay them fifty cents a day plus subsidized housing in a tar paper shack and we'll be just as progressive as they are. If only we could turn the United States into a third world country where people eak out a subsistance level existance by rummaging through landfills, we could solve most of our social problems. Fortunately, the hope and change crowd is working on that.


quote:

I have Indian friends who had family members bring me prescription drugs for about 10% of what I was being charged here in the US.



Hey, you could go teach in India. Last I heard, a teacher can make as much as $3,000 dollars a year in New Dehli. Just think of the difference you could make there.




quote:

But I'm too old to worry about it for me, I just feel sorry for the millions of younger Americans and their children who won't get adequate medical care as America falls farther down the International lists on medical statistics like life expectancy and infant mortality and so forth. If we are such a great society, why aren't we at the top of all those lists? We pay more per patient than about anyone in the world and yet achieve poorer results... explain that.


That's pretty easy. Everyone else in the world isn't providing free medical care to about fifty million illegal residents of foreign countries. Diseases like German measles, polio, and tuberculosis which were once eradicated in the United States are emerging again thanks to the efforts of "recovered republicans" who want to sign them up to mark their ballots "correctly". Those statistics are the result of receipients of socialized health care in Central America who make it to an American hospital before they drop dead.

Life expectancy and infant mortality would be a little better if so many mothers wouldn't leave their babies in dumpsters while they go hunt up some more crack or sit in stairwells and drink up their welfare checks.

But we have made some progress in making people pay a hundred bucks for a five dollar carton of cigarettes. We need to make people who make poor life style choices pay for transgender surgery and HIV medications for those who excercise their constitutional right to engage in homosexual orgies in public parks and bus station toilets.





Chijohnaok2 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 12:10:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rhondabrwn

I have Indian friends who had family members bring me prescription drugs for about 10% of what I was being charged here in the US.


First of all, I seem to recall reading that some drug companies in India have a tendency to reverse engineer drugs developed in other countries and then sell their own local version. This means that they pay no royalties to the drug's original developer. It make's it easier for them to sell them so cheaply when they are stealing someone else's work. Estimates are that at least 10% of Indian drugs are substandard.
http://newledger.com/2009/03/counterfeit-drug-policy-in-india/

Secondly, did you know that in Sept 2008, the FDA banned importation of 28 drugs from India due to "manfacturing deficiencies"?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/16/AR2008091603003.html

So if you want to keep using those illegally imported Indian drugs, you go right ahead. But don't shocked when you find yourself growing a 3rd hand, or in the emergency room because of a bad reaction to some 3rd rate Indian drug that you have been ingesting.

What's the bill going to look like when your insurer denies your emergency room claim because you were using some non-FDA approved, illegally imported drugs?





jwarrenw13 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 3:08:59 PM)

rhondabrwn, I know there are better health insurance policies available for teachers in many states, including Louisiana, speaking to your situation specifically.  I know you really like what you're doing and where you are, but you can get much better coverage in Louisiana, just to name one place.  But the things you speak about are in general true.  I have relatives who have been financially ruined because of a serious illness despite having health insurance.  Such is one reason I support single payer.    



LarryP -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 3:51:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Knuckles_85
I have to call bs having had 3 surgeries I can tell you what they do. You have a nurse come in with your chart and ask you what you having done. They then pull out a pen and mark that body part. Then the anestheologist comes in and asks you the same thing and initials that body part. Then the surgeon comes in and does the same thing. 3 people and 3 initials. They all mark your chart and make sure they're all on the same page.


You can call BS all you want but the facts remain, it's in the news all the time about botched surgeries. It's good you have had that kind of book keeping for your surgeries. However that kind of practice is not a global requirement. Out of the five major surgeries I have had, only the last one ten months ago did it like you described.

Do you really think that everyone in the USA does surgery procedures the same, like yours? [&:]



mjk428 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 6:32:55 PM)

Guessing that the Powers That Be assumed that a Santa thread could be safely ignored. [:D]


Goodnight Chet.



leastonh1 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 6:46:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428
Guessing that the Powers That Be assumed that a Santa thread could be safely ignored. [:D]

Indeed. I'm surprised by how this thread has turned out. I won't be sorry to see it locked.



Qwixt -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 7:04:41 PM)

Santa is a socialist



jwarrenw13 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 7:28:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

quote:

ORIGINAL: mjk428
Guessing that the Powers That Be assumed that a Santa thread could be safely ignored. [:D]

Indeed. I'm surprised by how this thread has turned out. I won't be sorry to see it locked.


I enjoyed the remarks concerning British health care. We hear a lot of things in the US, usuall disseminated for a political purpose, but rarely do we read firsthand accounts.

As for the nonsense and the back and forth and someone telling me "You lied, shut up," more or less, yeah, I could do without that.



jwarrenw13 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 7:30:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Qwixt

Santa is a socialist


Not necessarily. Rich kids get more and better presents than poor kids. And we really don't know much about how he operates his toy factory, profits, treatment of workers, etc., since he apparently is in a tax-free zone. There is a lot more we need to know.



Endsieg -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 7:46:38 PM)

this has been an informative..if somewhat political, thread. yes...some minor flameposts, but all awfully civil and good-natured, if not downright hyperbole for the sake of entertainment. UK and US views/experiences on healthcare have been admirably exchanged without much rancour...sure she'll be locked down soon, but not because anyone has taken out long knives[8D]



WYBaugh -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 7:48:28 PM)

My 2 cents regarding the UK:

I agree that the UK NHS is good..but what concerns me is that you and other european countries are working with a total population of just a couple of our states.  UK 2009 population is like 61 million...roughly California and New York's populations.

Trying to make this work at a national level in the US would be daunting as well as I don't think our government can run a program correctly.   



Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 7:55:27 PM)

All Hospital and Doctor visits are free here in oz

My family has had three babies, Cancer treatments, lung transplant, internal prosthesis (leg), various bone breakages, screening tests, general check ups, you name it... all for free in the last 20 years.

This includes foreigners... a reciprocal agreement is in existence with the UK... I know I've used it.


At the moment Dental visits are not free but that is on it's way (Although we can use a free service that is provided but that is not convenient).


Strangely our health costs are lower than in the USA (% GDP) and we are told if travelling there to fly home if services are required.



leastonh1 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 8:03:02 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Endsieg
this has been an informative..if somewhat political, thread. yes...some minor flameposts, but all awfully civil and good-natured, if not downright hyperbole for the sake of entertainment. UK and US views/experiences on healthcare have been admirably exchanged without much rancour...sure she'll be locked down soon, but not because anyone has taken out long knives[8D]

It's been a fascinating discussion and I've certainly learned something about the US health care system and some myths have been dispelled. I meant I'd be happy to see it locked before the real flamethrowers come out as it would be better to end on a good note. Besides, poor Santa was sidelined too quickly [:D]



uncc -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 8:15:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

All Hospital and Doctor visits are free here in oz

My family has had three babies, Cancer treatments, lung transplant, internal prosthesis (leg), various bone breakages, screening tests, general check ups, you name it... all for free in the last 20 years.

This includes foreigners... a reciprocal agreement is in existence with the UK... I know I've used it.


At the moment Dental visits are not free but that is on it's way (Although we can use a free service that is provided but that is not convenient).


Strangely our health costs are lower than in the USA (% GDP) and we are told if travelling there to fly home if services are required.



Perhaps not really free, eh? Someone (you and fellow Ozians(?)) had to pay for all that healthcare. Kinda curious how much (percent-wise) of your paycheck you actually get? I'm currently in a 28-30% tax bracket and expect my taxes to rise signficantly due to the shenanigans of our current adminstration [:-]...



Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 8:23:19 PM)

The point is you don't have to take a second thought about visiting the Doctor.

if you are sick you make the visit without having to check your bank balance first.

Healthcare is one of those inalieanable rights.



Doggie -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 9:16:23 PM)

Are there lawyers in Australia that do nothing but sue doctors? Do they donate zillions to one particular political party and run ads 24/7 about how you can paid if you taken just about any prescriptiom drug you care to name or if you or your children are not in perfect health?

Do Doctors in Australia have to pay hundreds of thousands of dollars a year in mal practice insurance premiums? Has a Australian politician personally driven compentent pediatricians out of business and single handedly increased the cost of health care by pocketing millions in proceeds from lawsuits against doctors who delivered children with birth defects?

Does every hospital that delivers a child with Downs Syndrome or some other congenital defect have to pay millions to some ambulance chaser like former vice presidential nominee John Edwards?



Andrew Williams -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 9:19:49 PM)

Hey... sounds like your system need changing...



Doggie -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 9:23:31 PM)

hope and change is coming


quote:

However, Representatives Eshoo (D-CA), Inslee (D-WA) and Barton (R-TX) are planning to introduce an amendment which tows the brand-name industry line that a 12-year monopoly is needed and waters down the criteria for a given biologic's period of exclusivity to be extended. The practice of getting extensions for small tweaks to the original product--things like shifting the delivery method from a pill to an injection or changing the dosage from twice a day to once a day--has been labeled "evergreening" by consumer groups. This month, the European Union's antitrust regulator said she would begin to monitor the practice closely.



In a copy of the amendment obtained by The Nation, the conditions under which a drug's exclusivity may be renewed are numerous and strikingly vague:

"A change…that results in a new indication, route of administration, dosing schedule, dosage form, delivery system, delivery device or strength; or a modification to the structure of the biological product that does not result in a change in safety, purity, or potency."
This essentially grants big drug manufacturers the ability to wait until the 11th hour to make slight adjustments and receive a substantial extension.



These prolonged monopolies, preventing the production of generics and keeping drug prices high in a healthcare system fraught with increasing costs, might explain why the President has expressed concern about the issue.


But who cares? It's "free".



Fred98 -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 9:43:22 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams
All Hospital and Doctor visits are free here in oz



Since whe is it free? Its not free for me!

-




Cap Mandrake -> RE: NORAD tracks Santa.... (12/28/2009 10:24:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Williams

Healthcare is one of those inalieanable rights.


I disagree. It may be a desireable social goal but it is no "inalienable right". What Jefferson meant are rights that are intrinsic to our natural state (God-given if you will). These should not be abridged by government. Here we are talking about something quite different. Indeed, in order to provide free healthcare for all it wil, of necessity, require that the rights of others be compromised (ie., confiscating their wealth).

Besides, if it is so obvious that healthcare is a human right, then why should it stop at a national border? Every pregnant Mexican woman should have the right to come t o the US for her delivery.....wait...maybe that isn't such a good example. We do that already. Well, I am sure somebody can come up with an example....maybe a land bridge to Papua New Guinea so all the locals can come to Oz for free hip replacements.



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