What do beach obstacles do ? (Full Version)

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Geomitrak -> What do beach obstacles do ? (1/10/2010 3:30:24 PM)

I'm playing the Tarawa:Line of Departure scenario by PBEM, and I've found that my LVTs and Marine units are unaffected by them ( haven't tried untracked units such as Higgins boats ) . Looking at the info tile for a beach ostacle hex, it seems no different from a shallow water hex.

Is it my imagination, or did beach obstacle hexes act as minefields in the original Rising Sun game ?

Can't find any information in the pdf manual or the original Talonsoft paper manuals either.

Any info gratefully received, as usual

Regards

Paul


EDIT: Okay, with Higgins boats, they DO act as minefields...just tried it out. But why not LVTs ?



TJD -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/10/2010 9:41:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

I'm playing the Tarawa:Line of Departure scenario by PBEM, and I've found that my LVTs and Marine units are unaffected by them ( haven't tried untracked units such as Higgins boats ) . Looking at the info tile for a beach ostacle hex, it seems no different from a shallow water hex.

Is it my imagination, or did beach obstacle hexes act as minefields in the original Rising Sun game ?

Can't find any information in the pdf manual or the original Talonsoft paper manuals either.

Any info gratefully received, as usual

Regards

Paul


EDIT: Okay, with Higgins boats, they DO act as minefields...just tried it out. But why not LVTs ?


There is a bug that prevents the LVT(A)1 and LVT2 from setting off the water obstacles. I'd hoped it would be fixed in the last patch but I think fixing the cave bug was their main emphasis.

Maybe Jason can confirm it's on the to-do list for the next patch?

Tim



Geomitrak -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/11/2010 11:17:57 AM)

Thanks for that Tim. I would imagine that its something to do with the fact that once in shallow water, LVTs are moving on their tracks ( i.e. movement on land ), whereas Higgins boats et al are still floating ( movement in water ).

Jason, any thoughts ?

Regards

Paul



TJD -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/11/2010 9:16:01 PM)

Geomitrak, I may have been wrong in my answer that there is a bug. I did a little research on the question by searching this forum and this thread suggests that the immunity of tracked amphibians like the LVTs to beach obstacles is deliberate:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2012387&mpage=1&key=beach%2Cobstacle�

Beach obstacles are classed as a fortification. The key para is this:

quote:

“This type of fortification only appears in shallow water hexes. Essentially it is a “Minefield” (1:1 strength) that only affects units that use only boat-type movement (i.e. boats or landing craft, but not fully-tracked amphibians). The presence of a Beach Obstacle in a shallow water hex does not increase the AP needed to enter that location.”


That's from the original Rising Sun manual. If it still holds good we're not dealing with a bug at all but a feature.

So far as I can tell, this paragraph wasn't included in the current manual.

Tim




V22 Osprey -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/11/2010 11:39:11 PM)

Besides, this makes since.Obviously a tracked vehicle isn't at the mercy of the water, so it easily can be able to go over obstacles.



TJD -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/12/2010 12:39:47 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey

Besides, this makes since.Obviously a tracked vehicle isn't at the mercy of the water, so it easily can be able to go over obstacles.


I'm not sure that's quite accurate. The manual says that these obstacles are essentially minefields, and it's not immediately obvious to me why a tracked vehicle should be more able to go through a minefield without incident than say a Higgins boat. More to the point, the graphic shows an "X" shaped obstacle of the sort that we're all familiar with from pictures of invasion beaches, and these were often intended to be submerged tidally and thus invisible to landing craft, whether tracked or not. Mines typically were festooned on these and even at low tide they could be difficult to navigate.

Just sayin'. The point can go either way, I'm sure. I'm happy with the rule as it is.

Tim




Geomitrak -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/12/2010 1:48:23 AM)

Tim, thanks for that. I've been through the Talonsoft Rising Sun paper manual and can't find it at all. What page is it on ??

I would also agree with you about beach obstacles. If the Higgins boat crews can't see them, then neither can the LVTs. And there's no way a tracked vehicle could climb over them without getting hung up and/or destroyed by the mines attached to the top.

The rule isn't a game killer, but I find it a bit curious. I would also expect a beach obstacle hex to provide some measure of concealment for wading infantry: in the game they have the same concealment rating as open shallow water hexes. I think thats something that could be easily altered. What do you all think ?

Regards

Paul



junk2drive -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/12/2010 1:58:39 AM)

I think it was a limitation of the game engine and they explained it away rather than trying to make it work. It probably didn't come up until RS and by that point they weren't going to spend any resources on it.



TJD -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/12/2010 2:19:42 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

Tim, thanks for that. I've been through the Talonsoft Rising Sun paper manual and can't find it at all. What page is it on ??


Hi Paul:

I was so curious about it too that I actually got out my old Rising Sun Gold discs and looked up the pdf! It's on page 57 of the paper manual, which is page 29 in the .pdf.

quote:

I would also agree with you about beach obstacles. If the Higgins boat crews can't see them, then neither can the LVTs. And there's no way a tracked vehicle could climb over them without getting hung up and/or destroyed by the mines attached to the top.


Yes, it doesn't seem quite logical but in the Tarawa scenario especially I'm glad to see the Marines draw a break any way they can get it. :)

quote:

The rule isn't a game killer, but I find it a bit curious. I would also expect a beach obstacle hex to provide some measure of concealment for wading infantry: in the game they have the same concealment rating as open shallow water hexes. I think thats something that could be easily altered. What do you all think ?


I don't know if they'd serve well as cover, despite what we saw in "Saving Private Ryan". The only tactical break you can get is to get on the beach and then inland as fast as you can. If you did argue for a rule change allowing use of them as cover then I suppose you'd get into questions about tidal levels and so on and there'd be no end of it. The nice thing about this series of games IMO is that it knows when to simplify.

Best,

Tim






Geomitrak -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/12/2010 2:31:52 AM)

Tim, would you not say that if the water is shallow enough to wade through, then the obstacles in that shallow hex are far enough out of the water to provide some cover ?

Yes, they did use them as cover in Saving Private Ryan, but they also did the same in Robert Capa's surviving photos of Omaha Beach. Surely they provide enough concealment to raise the rating to at least one over open water ?

Regards

Paul

EDIT Page 57 of the paper manual...thanks, Tim...I've been through the manual cover to cover several times and still couldn't see it. Must visit Spec Savers soon ;)



TJD -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/12/2010 2:35:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Geomitrak

Tim, would you not say that if the water is shallow enough to wade through, then the obstacles in that shallow hex are far enough out of the water to provide some cover ?

Yes, they did use them as cover in Saving Private Ryan, but they also did the same in Robert Capa's surviving photos of Omaha Beach. Surely they provide enough concealment to raise the rating to at least one over open water ?

Regards

Paul


I can't fault your logic, Paul! [&o]

[:)]

Best,

Tim



Geomitrak -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/17/2010 9:00:14 PM)

Strangely, while conventional landing craft suffer from mines and tracked LVTs do not, send a tracked Sherman tank in and it suffers mine damage ! How peculiar.

Jason, I know you must be busy right now, but can you note this oddity down in the list of things to do ? And bump up the concealment rating in beach obstacle hexes too ?

Regards

Paul



Jason Petho -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/18/2010 12:02:29 AM)

Will add it to the list, Paul.

Jason Petho



Geomitrak -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/24/2010 2:32:12 AM)

Jason, a further complication...in West Front, a DD Sherman is unaffected by beach-obstacle minefield attacks, while a conventional Sherman in Rising Sun IS affected. It all seems to hinge on any tracked AND floating vehicle ( such as LVTs and DD Shermans ) being impervious to beach ostacles, while tracked OR floating ( such as conventional Shermans or LCVPs ) suffer hits !

Surely this has been mentioned before ... ?



Jason Petho -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/24/2010 6:29:46 AM)

Duly noted, Paul. Duly noted.

Jason Petho



Geomitrak -> RE: What do beach obstacles do ? (1/24/2010 11:50:22 AM)

Well done, that man! [:)]



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