What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (Full Version)

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chesmart -> What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/14/2010 9:01:00 PM)

What is the effect of atom bombs on cities ? I am getting one next month and I am thinking of using one on Tokyo and I am curious if it effects military units. In Tokyo the AI has 20000+ AV in 9 fort levels and i think it will be difficult for me to assault Tokyo land wise hopefully it will effect military units as well.



CapAndGown -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/14/2010 9:35:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

What is the effect of atom bombs on cities ?


Nothing good. [:'(]



chesmart -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/14/2010 9:40:11 PM)

Lol[sm=happy0005.gif]



Chickenboy -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/14/2010 10:10:58 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

What is the effect of atom bombs on cities ? I am getting one next month and I am thinking of using one on Tokyo and I am curious if it effects military units. In Tokyo the AI has 20000+ AV in 9 fort levels and i think it will be difficult for me to assault Tokyo land wise hopefully it will effect military units as well.

Please paste your results here after dropping the bomb next month. I'm sure that there's a number of allied players (and IJ too) that would be very interested in seeing what happens when Tokyo gets nuked. FWIW, in WiTP, atom bombs were very underwhelming in their effect. Hardly worth the U235 or Pu expenditure. Be interested in seeing if this has changed in AE.



chesmart -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 12:02:25 AM)

will do !

Bump



captskillet -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 1:39:53 AM)

Well if its like WITP you gets a bunch of Industry and tons of civillian casualties but you get a neagative VP bump.



Chickenboy -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 3:12:52 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: captskillet

Well if its like WITP you gets a bunch of Industry and tons of civillian casualties but you get a neagative VP bump.

Wasnt' that only if there were >2 nukes used?



wwengr -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 4:49:34 AM)

Ionizing radiation fries people's insides
Thermal radiation fries the outsides
Residual radiation leaves them homeless
Over-pressure crushes them
Shock wave blows them away
Electro-magnetic pulse wipes their iPods
Cratering changes the real estate
Fallout screws with their neighbors

Of course an airburst eliminates the last two.



fflaguna -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 9:16:02 AM)

You've obviously never heard of cobalt thorium G.

Cobalt thorium G has a radioactive halflife of ninety three years. If you take, say, fifty H-bombs in the hundred megaton range and jacket them with cobalt thorium G, when they are exploded they will produce a doomsday shroud. A lethal cloud of radioactivity which will encircle the earth for ninety three years!



Lifer -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 1:51:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Ionizing radiation fries people's insides
Thermal radiation fries the outsides
Residual radiation leaves them homeless
Over-pressure crushes them
Shock wave blows them away
Electro-magnetic pulse wipes their iPods
Cratering changes the real estate
Fallout screws with their neighbors

Of course an airburst eliminates the last two.


Shadows on walls left standing.
Endless controversy over whether it was necessary to drop the bomb.
If Tokyo is nuked, installation of MacArthur as Emperor and god.



Bradley7735 -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 2:11:25 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: captskillet

Well if its like WITP you gets a bunch of Industry and tons of civillian casualties but you get a neagative VP bump.

Wasnt' that only if there were >2 nukes used?


Why is it that Allies get a lower score for using their assets, but the Japanese do not get any VP penalty for using kamikazies to their full potential?

If the Allied player needs to use two or more atomic bombs, then they are already losing. Doesn't seem logical that they'd take more of a hit to use something in their inventory.



P.Hausser -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 3:43:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ?





Well.. I can't Evan imagine the effect..




Chickenboy -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 4:40:32 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
If the Allied player needs to use two or more atomic bombs, then they are already losing. Doesn't seem logical that they'd take more of a hit to use something in their inventory.

IRL two atomic bombs were used, Bradley7735. It would be inaccurate to say that, at the time of the second bomb drop that we were 'losing' at that point, don't you think?



chesmart -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 5:25:33 PM)

OK guys got all the political points but what do the bombs effect ? And do they effect military units ?



Chickenboy -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 5:49:47 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

OK guys got all the political points but what do the bombs effect ? And do they effect military units ?

IRL, they affected everything in the hex-some military, lots of resources, HI, LI, everything. Don't know how things will turn out in AE with 'the bomb'. Please do tell...



Swenslim -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 5:55:01 PM)

Can bomber carrying A-bomb be shot down ? Or bomb activates by simple click ?



Lifer -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/15/2010 10:13:49 PM)

Only one bomber group is allowed to carry the bomb (373rd?).  If one bomber survives the attack run then the bomb is delivered.



xj900uk -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/18/2010 1:56:58 PM)

Perhaps the Allied player could gain VP's for not using Atomic Bombs?  Or possibly only using one?



Bradley7735 -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/18/2010 4:56:49 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735
If the Allied player needs to use two or more atomic bombs, then they are already losing. Doesn't seem logical that they'd take more of a hit to use something in their inventory.

IRL two atomic bombs were used, Bradley7735. It would be inaccurate to say that, at the time of the second bomb drop that we were 'losing' at that point, don't you think?


The game gives you one starting in July (or is it August?) 1945. The 2nd in August. If you go past that date without winning, you are already doing worse than historic, hence "losing" the game to your Japanese counterpart. Using one in September will only exaserbate your "losing" status. It doesn't make sense.

Meanwhile, if you invade Paramushiro-jima in mid 43, the Japanese player can now use Kamikazes. If he didn't squander his air assets, I imagine he could use quite a bit more than were historically used (around 5k, I think), and according to other posts, use much more highly experienced pilots as well. (forgive me if I'm wrong on this aspect of the game. I really don't know how Kamikazes are used in the game, except that they activate when a base near enough to Japan is invaded, not date specific like the fancy 'special' allied weapon.) The only score effect that has on them is losing more points for airplanes lost, but likely gaining many more points in enemy ships sunk.

So, the crux of my statement is: Why is the Allied player penalized for using 'special' historic assets yet the Japanese are not?

It would seem fair that if the Allied player can only use 2 atomic bombs (as were historically used) without penalty, then the Japanese player could only use 5k Kamikazes without penalty, then they take a victory point loss as well.

Btw, if any Dev's read my post, please just take it as 'Theory discussion'. I absolutely love the game. I don't play PBEM, so the atomic bomb issue doesn't affect me at all. You guys created an astronomically awesome game and have taken a lot of crap from folks who think you could have done better. Yes, I'm whining above, but my level of gratitude for what you've done is 99x more than my whine.



chesmart -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/18/2010 5:46:04 PM)

Kamikazes in AE are activated earlier the date now is 1st June 1943. I learnt the lesson the hard way when i had a CV group caught with its pants down near Rangoon, the AI used Emily s long range and sent me 3 CVs to the repair yard for 6 months and BTW the bigger the plane the more the damage. I do not want to use atomic bombs but Tokyo has 20000 AV in level 9 forts and i have found no solution how to attack it yet. I will be landing in Kyushu in august 1945 and as of may 1945 the IJN is dead and i have total air supremacy over japan. I have lost more ships in the last 1 1/2 years to kamikazes then ever in the game it is a very powerful weapon. Convoys have to have DEs and CVEs if you do not want to lose them and after the latest hot patch collisions have increased i have lost 10 AKs in the last 6 months to collisions.



Runyon -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/18/2010 5:57:51 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

So, the crux of my statement is: Why is the Allied player penalized for using 'special' historic assets yet the Japanese are not?

It would seem fair that if the Allied player can only use 2 atomic bombs (as were historically used) without penalty, then the Japanese player could only use 5k Kamikazes without penalty, then they take a victory point loss as well.



I assume the penalty is applied because of the magnitude of what the atomic bomb represents, not only in terms of the war itself, but it's impact on the history of the world from that point on. The kamikaze's were an act of desperation that had roots in Japan's cultural past. The decision to use them directly impacted the men who volunteered for the missions, and the soldiers on the other side who were their targets. While the thought of kamikazes was horrifying to many outside Japan, they didn't change the course of history.

The atomic bomb directly affected a mostly civilian population, and indirectly affected everybody else on the planet. Without getting into the debate of whether they should have been dropped or not, the fact remains that Truman did not make the decision lightly. He knew it was more than just a big weapon, it was also a geopolitical game changer. Any simulation of the Pacific war has to take that into account.



bsq -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/18/2010 6:03:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

I do not want to use atomic bombs but Tokyo has 20000 AV in level 9 forts and i have found no solution how to attack it yet



20000 AV = 50 combat division (ish) equivalent - seems a very high number for that late in the war.

Any way chances are you've 'won' already so why not see what happens without the nukes. Bomb them, blockade them, surround them. Once supplies run low that 20k AV won't remain at that level. Don't recommend a direct assault on Tokyo bay as was planned IRL, just surround them and starve them out.

quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

Convoys have to have DEs and CVEs if you do not want to lose them and after the latest hot patch collisions have increased i have lost 10 AKs in the last 6 months to collisions.



You've been using convoys that are too big - break them into smaller units and then have them follow each other, collisions reduce.



chesmart -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/18/2010 6:18:31 PM)

Problem with bombing them is the ai has so much AA in tokyo that the casualties are horrendous reminds me of nikmod and tokyo has mines and very big guns so no naval bombadment. I need to use big convoys because i have to use 2-3 CVEs in each convoy because of kamis and 8-10 DDs, DEs because of subs so i have to concentrate them.



bsq -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/18/2010 6:30:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

Problem with bombing them is the ai has so much AA in tokyo that the casualties are horrendous reminds me of nikmod and tokyo has mines and very big guns so no naval bombadment. I need to use big convoys because i have to use 2-3 CVEs in each convoy because of kamis and 8-10 DDs, DEs because of subs so i have to concentrate them.



One 6 - 8 ship plus escort CVE group can put up 60+ fighters on CAP and can cover all the ships in it's hex. Keep them tight, but not bunched and you can do a lot. Put your DE's into ASW groups and they work better.

I took 6 x 10 ship convoys round the top of Luzon. Used 2 x 4 DE ASW groups 1 8 x CVE with 16 DD's or DE's as cover in the hex (that's less than 100 ships in the hex) and used the FCTF stood off to interdict the airfields either side (Formosa and North Luzon). Kami attacks sure. The odd leaker (once per run I did this) but less than historical. If you assign all your cover to your transport TF's it's less efficient and nowhere near as effective.



Chickenboy -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/18/2010 7:21:00 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

So, the crux of my statement is: Why is the Allied player penalized for using 'special' historic assets yet the Japanese are not?

Well, Bradley7735-they're not. They get two 'freebie' nukes between July and August 1945. Using these will not affect the score one way or the other. Using MORE than these (3+) will shift the scoring downwards one scale.

I don't recall if there are additional effects with MORE nukes (one a month until May 1946=10 nukes?). So, one could say that if the allies were willing to accept a slight scale down in victory level that they could turn most major Japanese cities into radioactive self-lighting glass-floored parking lots by the end of the game.



Chickenboy -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/18/2010 7:23:15 PM)

Well, che200:  what's the verdict?  What was the a-bomb damage?



chesmart -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/18/2010 9:04:32 PM)

I reached June 19th 1945 and no Atom bombs yet ! The Los Alamos Scientists are probably assembling and testing the bombs for now.



wwengr -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/18/2010 11:29:09 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

I reached June 19th 1945 and no Atom bombs yet ! The Los Alamos Scientists are probably assembling and testing the bombs for now.

First atom bomb attack was August 6, 1945.



fflaguna -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/19/2010 12:32:51 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr


quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

I reached June 19th 1945 and no Atom bombs yet ! The Los Alamos Scientists are probably assembling and testing the bombs for now.

First atom bomb attack was August 6, 1945.


Try telling that to the New Mexican desert! [:D]



chesmart -> RE: What is the effect of Atom Bombs on cities ? (1/19/2010 12:39:35 AM)

 I am hoping of landing in japan in circa September 1945 and use the bombs on Tokyo and Osaka So i will use both bombs to soften the defenses of both cities. My landing will be Shimonoseki and my first wave will consist of 3 airborne Divs , 4 airborne Brigs, 6 Marine Divs , 4 Tank Brig and all the assault engineers i can find. That way I can isolate the Kyushu defenses for my follow up Divs.



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