RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (Full Version)

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mmarquo -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/4/2010 1:10:09 PM)

>Very good (experienced) PBEM opponents will know the order of appearance and initial placement of their enemies forces, they know what units are >fixed and when or how they are released, they know when and where reinforcements arrive.

Correct. Which is why the developers should spend enough time to "solve" these problems by introducing variables and triggers to introduce credible uncertainty.

1. The initial placement does not really have to be fixed; the players can have latitude in this regard; i.e. so many units need to be in the Baltic, Western, Southern fronts etc.  but where is not scripted.
2. Fixed units can have release triggers.
3. Reinforcements can have percentages chances of arriving or not (early or late) and even tactical/strategic options as to where.

IMHO the above suggestions are very important issues.



critter -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/5/2010 4:58:28 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

>Very good (experienced) PBEM opponents will know the order of appearance and initial placement of their enemies forces, they know what units are >fixed and when or how they are released, they know when and where reinforcements arrive.

Correct. Which is why the developers should spend enough time to "solve" these problems by introducing variables and triggers to introduce credible uncertainty.

1. The initial placement does not really have to be fixed; the players can have latitude in this regard; i.e. so many units need to be in the Baltic, Western, Southern fronts etc.  but where is not scripted.
2. Fixed units can have release triggers.
3. Reinforcements can have percentages chances of arriving or not (early or late) and even tactical/strategic options as to where.

IMHO the above suggestions are very important issues.


I agree. Should be an option in the AI Game too



Kharkov -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/5/2010 7:00:26 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: critter


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

>Very good (experienced) PBEM opponents will know the order of appearance and initial placement of their enemies forces, they know what units are >fixed and when or how they are released, they know when and where reinforcements arrive.

Correct. Which is why the developers should spend enough time to "solve" these problems by introducing variables and triggers to introduce credible uncertainty.

1. The initial placement does not really have to be fixed; the players can have latitude in this regard; i.e. so many units need to be in the Baltic, Western, Southern fronts etc.  but where is not scripted.
2. Fixed units can have release triggers.
3. Reinforcements can have percentages chances of arriving or not (early or late) and even tactical/strategic options as to where.

IMHO the above suggestions are very important issues.


I agree. Should be an option in the AI Game too


This gets my vote too. Devs should reconsider their design choices I think.




Pford -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/5/2010 9:25:45 PM)


quote:

1. The initial placement does not really have to be fixed; the players can have latitude in this regard; i.e. so many units need to be in the Baltic, Western, Southern fronts etc. but where is not scripted.
2. Fixed units can have release triggers.
3. Reinforcements can have percentages chances of arriving or not (early or late) and even tactical/strategic options as to where.


Agree with 2 & 3 but not 1, notably for Russian placement. The inept, even suicidal, configuration of the Soviet forces conceived out of Stalin's eagerness not to provoke the Germans made the rapid advances of 1941 possible. The campaign would have progressed in an entirely different way given sensible Russian dispositions, for example by concentrating their armoured formations and establishing a defence in depth. The Soviet player starts off with a bad hand, so be it. German initial placements are another matter.



zbig -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/5/2010 9:40:14 PM)

I think it would be nice to have the option to start the 41 campaign earlier to simulate a "what if" Germany did not invade Yugoslavia and Greece in 41.



wworld7 -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/5/2010 9:43:44 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zbig

I think it would be nice to have the option to start the 41 campaign earlier to simulate a "what if" Germany did not invade Yugoslavia and Greece in 41.


The Spring rains of 41 would have prevented a much earlier start for the tanks, but they could have crawled along in the mud on foot.



Fred98 -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/6/2010 1:22:46 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: zbig

I think it would be nice to have the option to start the 41 campaign earlier to simulate a "what if" Germany did not invade Yugoslavia and Greece in 41.



Such a what-if gives the Germans an earlier start in Russia.

But you would have to include the threat of British troops driving north from Greece. Without that threat the what-if means nothing.

-









wworld7 -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/6/2010 4:25:09 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98


quote:

ORIGINAL: zbig

I think it would be nice to have the option to start the 41 campaign earlier to simulate a "what if" Germany did not invade Yugoslavia and Greece in 41.



Such a what-if gives the Germans an earlier start in Russia.

But you would have to include the threat of British troops driving north from Greece. Without that threat the what-if means nothing.


Not really much of a threat given the situation.

No German invasion of Yugoslavia and Greece also means no German invasion of Crete. Without that decimaiton it allows for the possible air-assault on Malta by the 7th airborne. If Malta is captured Rommel's supply situation improves enough to take Egypt AND the British would be kicked out of the MED. Which may have convinced Turkey to join the Axis providing another passage into Russia.

While I don't think this would allow Germany to beat Russia, it would have given Russia the Middle East after the war.



janh -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/6/2010 11:16:48 AM)

I agree, an early start would necessarily involve also changing or interfering with the ops in Yugoslavia, Greece and Crete. On the one hand, it would of course be unimaginably awesome if the game map of this engine would one day (after patch, release of modding tools for map making, or with a nice "Europe 1939-1945" addon) stretch from northwest africa all the way to Urals, and allow the player to play a whole campaign including actions leading to Barbarossa. But that appears unlikely to happen in one game with one engine by these present developers. The focus of the engine is purely Russia, unlike the WITP-AE team that decided with their counterpart to simulate the whole war in the entire theater.

Anyway, the idea of allowing some flexibility in force setups would be a nice feature, yes. Optional, besides a historical setup. Logically, allowing the Germans the flexibility of maybe one "placement and reorganization" turn preceding the start of the battle would be legitimate. Clearly, the surprise moment would suggest that the Germans had more or less freedom of movement before, while the Russian were sitting idle. However, adding a second option might be particularly tempting for PBEM, allowing the Russians similar freedom: Kind of a "What if Stalin had believed his intelligence info?" scenario.



jaw -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/6/2010 1:32:54 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marquo

>Very good (experienced) PBEM opponents will know the order of appearance and initial placement of their enemies forces, they know what units are >fixed and when or how they are released, they know when and where reinforcements arrive.

Correct. Which is why the developers should spend enough time to "solve" these problems by introducing variables and triggers to introduce credible uncertainty.

1. The initial placement does not really have to be fixed; the players can have latitude in this regard; i.e. so many units need to be in the Baltic, Western, Southern fronts etc.  but where is not scripted.
2. Fixed units can have release triggers.
3. Reinforcements can have percentages chances of arriving or not (early or late) and even tactical/strategic options as to where.

IMHO the above suggestions are very important issues.


IMHO you are off topic and your points have nothing to do with the quality of the AI. If you want do discuss these issues please start a different thread.



shane56 -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/7/2010 3:23:47 PM)

G'Day All,
when I started this thread I was concerned that the AI would not be much better than "second front / war in russia" and I suspect that most people will play against the AI instead of against an opponent.
I would be interested to know from any of the game testers whether the AI is now at a stage where it is proving itself to be anywhere near a half decent opponent, well at least better than the AI in two previous games mentioned above.
Yep I know it will never rival a human opponent, no arguement there, but again as I suspect like most, I just dont have the time and dedication to play against a human opponent who wants the game turn back ASAP.
A good or half decent AI will help and ensure good sales for this game, this commercial aspect is a no-brainer, as all other games have it, and it wouldn't be programmed in if there was no demand for it.
Though it would be interesting to know how many play against the AI and how many dont ?
I know for one that I do, pretty well exclusively, so there is one (1) who does, how many others are there ?

Can't wait to purchase it and road test it..

Thanks ...shane_056



karonagames -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/7/2010 5:07:25 PM)

I have been testing the game since March, and have played about 6 1941 campaigns to the other side of the first winter soviet counter- offensive. On normal settings I can exceed historical results quite easily, usually capturing Leningrad. On "challenging" settings I am just behind historical results, and can nearly get Leningrad. I have found a custom setting of 110% advantage to the soviets is currently giving me the best game and nearest to historical results- in my latest game I got one hex of Moscow before the blizzards arrived and I was kicked back to Smolensk! The AI is much, much better than SF/WIR - she still does some bad things and some mad things, but overall GAIA (Gary's AI Adversary) does a pretty good job.

Some new testers have recently joined the team, so I am sure they can give their first impressions.




mmarquo -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/8/2010 12:33:03 AM)

Jaw,

With all due respect, I think my post was appropriate and on point in response to this comment, "If one side is more experienced and knowledgable about the scenario played then the advantages to one side are in some ways the same as the advantages held by human opponents over AI." I was only noting ways that a perceived "advantage" that a player may have, or feel that the AI may have, could be countered by variable initial setup, releases, etc. Do you really think that this was out of line for this thread?

Marquo [&:]




jaw -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/8/2010 1:35:31 PM)

My concern is that you would be starting a line of discussion which can stray so far from the topic that it "highjacks" the original thread. The valule of separate threats is that new people can come to the forum and read a threat on a particular subject to come up to speed on it quickly. When the discussion drifts into other areas of the design (such a fixed versus variable unit placement) the informational value of the original threat subject is diminished.




SGHunt -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/11/2010 1:19:56 PM)

OK - Joel has said I can post. I am a new game play tester (I can feel the jealousy from here, guys!) - and a great honour and privilege it is too. I must add that the game is in Alpha (nearly Beta, I'm told)), it is being amended ALL the time (two major upgrades in the last couple of weeks), and the level of detail, dedication and attention paid to getting this game right is truly outstanding. I can't tell who is a staffer and who is doing this for 'fun'. All my opinions are my own (see 'yes men' thread ) and in no way reflect the opinion of the management etc.
I get no money!!!

Back to the Thread
First impressions of the AI - it's a steep learning curve to get to know the game (I'll post separately on this, FYI), so treat these impressions with care.

I have had a go at the Typhoon scenario, as Germans. The temptation to run my panzers too hard and too fast was overwhelming, so I didn't resist! The AI takes its licks, then simply rebuilds a formidable front line wherever your panzers run out of petrol. Counters are thus far more nuisance than dangerous, but the blizzards are coming! The enemy infiltrates wherever he can, and digs in everywhere! This is in true Russian style, I believe.

Generally the AI has done very well, evading my so far clumsy attempts at envelopment (I've only managed a few smallish pockets), but it has also surrendered several cities without a fight (Orel just fell after it was evacuated - albeit that it was nearly surrounded). I was surprised by this on one or two occasions, expecting the Russians to sacrifice troops for time, and to trade like for like causalities in city defence. But let's be clear, if you do not use your precious resources with care, making full use of leadership, the right troops for the right job, air power in its many forms, and logistics (+++ on this one!), you will not beat the AI. [/font] I have now stopped playing this scenario as I was going nowhere...

Still learning, so I am now playing the Road to Minsk (a two turn trainer).


I may post a short AAR, with permission, to give an idea of the learning process.

[image]local://upfiles/33891/B5CEDDC2C8A74CAC8A0100EFA92B418D.gif[/image]



pzgndr -> RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? (7/11/2010 3:22:52 PM)

quote:

The AI takes its licks, then simply rebuilds a formidable front line wherever your panzers run out of petrol. Counters are thus far more nuisance than dangerous, but the blizzards are coming! The enemy infiltrates wherever he can, and digs in everywhere! This is in true Russian style, I believe.

Generally the AI has done very well, evading my so far clumsy attempts at envelopment (I've only managed a few smallish pockets), but it has also surrendered several cities without a fight (Orel just fell after it was evacuated - albeit that it was nearly surrounded). I was surprised by this on one or two occasions, expecting the Russians to sacrifice troops for time, and to trade like for like causalities in city defence. But let's be clear, if you do not use your precious resources with care, making full use of leadership, the right troops for the right job, air power in its many forms, and logistics (+++ on this one!), you will not beat the AI.


von Jaeger, these are encouraging observations. Nice to know that the computer opponent is not as brain-dead as some of the AI naysayers wish to believe. I fully expect to spend more time fighting my own mistakes in a game like this than worrying about whatever the AI coulda-woulda-shoulda done better... Sounds good! [:)]



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