LEGAL?...but FAIR? (Full Version)

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madgamer2 -> LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 10:45:36 PM)

I have been a loyal supporter of Matrix games in the past and have bought many at first release but will do this no longer as from now on I will wait to see how the game shapes up by following the forum. Why am I doing this you ask. When the AE project started it was going to be a sort of gift to all the loyal folks who bought WItP and it was not said but this player thought it would be priced at a reasonable sum.
Using players and volunteers to design a game was a new approach and at first seemed to be a good idea. However at a slow rate the hard core PBEM and the micro manager types took over the process of working on the upgrade and anyone who admitted to playing the AI in WItP was at times not treated well by some of the above mentioned players. That is not what this post is about either.
I think that the way in which AE is being sold to the public is legal but not all that fair. The idea to require WitP to be on the system in order to install (not play) AE was a good one because certain things such as the tutorials we not included in AE. When the above mentioned power PBEM players and the design teams that they were part of convinced Matrix to not require WitP to be installed to play AE was omitted was bad enough, but not even mentioning any of this in the advertising for AE on the store forum to me is a breach of faith to all the loyal Matrix players who ARE NOT PART of the above mentioned player groups. New players who buy AE and then find it difficult or not possible to play can't get a refund or exchange if they have the download version or I would guess the download and boxed version is not a good way to do business...its a good way to make money because if new players new that they would need WitP to be able to fully understand AE would then have to spend another $60 to buy WitP at its special price which brings the total to somewhere around $160.
So the power PBEM and micro manager and more detail players have won out and forced the AI or others who have no interest in PBEM games off the forum. I think that the WitP,AE thing is just going to go on and on till ....who knows when with patch.hot fix, patch hot fix, patch hot fix.... forever.
Why is this going to happen?......simple: Matrix is a company and needs to make money and they can see this as a cash cow ...BUT BEWARE that things could back lash as I know of many players who will not buy Matrix games at first release or even at all due to the way in which AE is being marketed and sold with out so much as a hint as to having WitP on your system would be a good moral and right thing to do. What really surprises me is that Matrix did it. There is one fun thing to do on a dull evening and that is to reat the tech forum...its going to take a long time to get this monster stable as each change requires another change ...etc,etc.etc.

Madgamer



Grotius -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:00:06 PM)

You don't need to have played WITP to play and enjoy AE. I know, because I have a good friend who is doing so.

AE serves the "AI player" better than WITP. I know, because I played exclusively against the AI for the first six months after release.



Takeshi -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:00:09 PM)

Madgamer,

I'm at work so I can't write a long comment. I've followed the AE progress for years on the Forum and thought it was clear this would entail a high level of micromanagement compared to WitP and even more compared to almost all other PC games out there. This should not be any great surprise to anyone.

Tak



Chickenboy -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:01:08 PM)

Hi Madgamer,

Welcome. I'm afraid that I must have missed your question or your point.

What, exactly, is it that we can provide clarity on for you? Do you have some questions that people that have purchased WiTP & AE can answer for you? Are you open to different points of view from the myriad well-received AI-only players on this forum?

Thanks for your response.



Smeulders -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:04:00 PM)

I have never played the original WITP, but I play and understand (not completely of course, but not significantly worse than WITP players either) AE. From what I understand there was a significant effort to make the AI better for those who don't play PBEM, so I don't really understand your criticism.



Twotribes -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:05:37 PM)

He has claimed you need WitP on your machine to play WitP AE. I happen to have both so can not address that claim. I find it highly unlikely though as the game is a STAND ALONE game.



Smeulders -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:12:14 PM)

I think he is claiming that you need to have played WITP to understand enough about the game before beginning with AE. He thinks that the way things are now, newbies will buy AE, find it too difficult and be forced to buy WITP to learn the game.  Because of this he thinks that AE should not be a stand alone game, but rather a mod or extension of WITP, that way newbies at least know beforehand they will need the two. At least that is how I understand him.



eMonticello -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:16:56 PM)

Here's my little Self-Made Tutorial for WITP-AE (which is not any different than many others):

a) Run the Coral Sea scenario to learn to manage a small number of units.
b) Read and ask questions on the forum

c) Run the Guadalcanal scenario to learn to manage a larger number of units over a longer period of time as well as manage logistics to support a campaign.
d) Again read and ask questions on the forum.

e) Run one of the Monster campaigns as the Allies for a few months primarily to learn to manage logistics to support the war effort and also plan campaigns.
f) And, must I add, read and ask questions on the forum.

g) Switch sides and run the Monster campaign as the Axis for a few months to learn to manage the Japanese war economy.
h) Finally, read and ask questions on the forum.

Oh, and this should go without saying, but you also must read a few books on the Pacific campaign as well.

I generally don't find tutorials to very useful; however, checklists similar to one created for PacWar are extremely useful.



witpqs -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:17:46 PM)

(To madgamer)

I totally disagree with what you've written here.

The bit about it being wrong to drop the requirement that WITP be owned and installed in order for a person to buy AE is twisted logic and nonsense. Maybe some Congressmen will try to pass a law regulating who is qualified to play AE?

I have seen no evidence at all that Matrix markets AE in a misleading way. In addition, all the reviews I've seen of AE have noted that it's for the serious gamer and includes lots of details.

I have also seen plenty of new players come here and get help to ramp up. For that matter, I've seen prospective purchasers come here and ask for opinions.

The real crux of your complaint is a fanciful "breach of faith" on the part of Matrix by making AE be just what they said it would be. It's obviously not what you want, but that is not a breach of faith. Matrix did what it said, and so did the AE development team. In fact, the support has been tremendous.

Your claim that AI players have been forced off the forum is plain false. I started my first PBM a month ago. Prior to that more than 5 years as an AI only player, and there are plenty here who say they only play AI. I have immensely enjoyed playing AE against the AI, which is greatly improved over WITP.

Your entitled to your own likes and dislikes, but you are making assertions here that just plain over the top wrong.



awadley -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:20:05 PM)

Madgamer,
I don't know why you post here, as I think I remember that you stated earlier that you have not even purchased WiTPAE. Guess you just can't stand it, that someone else can enjoy a game that was developed by the very people that play the game. Yes, it is a very detailed game, but that is what most people wanted based on their input.



chesmart -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:38:08 PM)

          Madgamer I do not agree with your position as from my personal experience with both Witp and AE the only AI that is functional is that of AE. I played Witp till 1/1/45 and quit after the ai basically surrendered with AE i have reached 1/7/45 and the ai is still a challenge. I play exclusively against the AI because my time is very limited so I do not PBEM plus I do not micro manage my turns. So your argument in my opinion does not hold water.



khyberbill -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:43:15 PM)

quote:

its going to take a long time to get this monster stable as each change requires another change ...etc,etc.etc.

Madgamer


Perhaps you missed all the posts in the WITP forum where Matrix was begged to release AE, warts and all, as soon as possible. They are damned if they do and damn if they don't. At least the major concerns have been addressed, and fairly rapidly as opposed to other games that are released and that is that.



freeboy -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/21/2010 11:57:01 PM)

The game works , warts and all..
The game is easier, but not easy, if you where a former master of the witp
The game is sold by a company that has the rights to it, who ever develpoed it, for a fee or not, is truly not relevent
Asking for stuff for free is fine, demanding stuff for free is called entitlement, and the very root of much error in our society.
From my limited perspective, not truly knowing why you are uspset, this game was sold for what 69$ on dl? That is really a bargin for the time spent on it, heck I would market it totally differently, giving it to folks and chargingfor the forum time LOL[:D]
Seriously, If you really invest in this, the cost over time falls off to badsically nothing.... if your are upset that MAtrix is a for profit company, again see my comment about entitlement. Life is not fair and the universe owes u or I nothing...



noguaranteeofsanity -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 12:17:52 AM)

Madgamer,
Likewise i have to strongly disagree with you and your various points, even as a player who has only played against the AI and hasnt gotten involved with PBEM games. I definitely dont feel i have been treated unfairly or discriminated against or disrespected simply because of this.

Also you do not need to have played WITP in order to understand AE, in fact it would probably help and be easier to simply learn the one set of rules, rather than having to read both manuals and learn two different systems, then try to remember what the differences are, as there are numerous and significant changes between the two. Interestingly, one of the biggest changes, also has been the AI, which is much improved in comparison to WITP, despite what you say.

True there is no tutorial for AE, but the manual covers everything and there is no harm or reason, you cannot open up the smaller scenarios and play, making mistakes as you learn. A tutorial is not going to be any different and i would assume, simply be an extremely lengthy list of instructions, telling you to click this button, then that button etc... which i doubt is going to be a great help.

Admittedly Im probably one of the younger players at 32 and extremely computer literate, having used them since i was very young, but the interface,, while perhaps a little overwhelming at first, is mostly intuitive. Buttons are clearly labeled and the various windows are opened by either clicking on the map or icons along the top of the screen. There really isnt any 'hidden' features or functions, that are hard to find or use. I think it is fairly obvious for example, clicking the disband option disbands that unit or setting a destination, is obviously going to move it wherever it is set and so on.

Also i dont know why you would complain that WITP was not required to play to AE and that it makes the game less attractive to new users... surely the opposite is true and requiring someone to purchase and install WITP unnecessarily, simply to run AE would not only increase the price, but also possibly dissuade some people from buying AE. Do you boycott the majority of software from Microsoft, Adobe etc that dont include previous, older versions as well?

While if Matrix is simply all about money and making as much as they can, your whole theory is rather flawed, as the last thing a business who wants to be successful should do, is piss off their customers. Why would Matrix Games deliberately seek to alienate users simply because they play the AI and ruin their experience? Surely they would be trying to keep ALL their customers happy and do as much as they can, to encourage people to buy the game and not the opposite as you seem to claim.



Zeta16 -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 12:22:30 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

The game works , warts and all..
The game is easier, but not easy, if you where a former master of the witp
The game is sold by a company that has the rights to it, who ever develpoed it, for a fee or not, is truly not relevent
Asking for stuff for free is fine, demanding stuff for free is called entitlement, and the very root of much error in our society.
From my limited perspective, not truly knowing why you are uspset, this game was sold for what 69$ on dl? That is really a bargin for the time spent on it, heck I would market it totally differently, giving it to folks and chargingfor the forum time LOL[:D]
Seriously, If you really invest in this, the cost over time falls off to badsically nothing.... if your are upset that MAtrix is a for profit company, again see my comment about entitlement. Life is not fair and the universe owes u or I nothing...



Yeah we put 8 to 10 turns in a day, not inculding the other 8 to 10 I do with others. So I think the price was well worth it, it beats buy other forms of entertainment such as music.



EUBanana -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 12:54:47 AM)

I dunno, I dont' find AE that much more difficult than WITP. It is bigger, yes, and there are more options and such, but there are quite a few aids that I find invaluable (eg, sub patrols, waypoints) that I would miss very much if I went back to WITP. So if anything I find AE to be slicker and quicker!

As for stable - seems perfectly stable on my machine?



EUBanana -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 12:55:15 AM)

Oh, and the AE manual is very good. Much better than anything WITP had I think.



Bradley7735 -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 1:07:12 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

The game works , warts and all..
The game is easier, but not easy, if you where a former master of the witp
The game is sold by a company that has the rights to it, who ever develpoed it, for a fee or not, is truly not relevent
Asking for stuff for free is fine, demanding stuff for free is called entitlement, and the very root of much error in our society.
From my limited perspective, not truly knowing why you are uspset, this game was sold for what 69$ on dl? That is really a bargin for the time spent on it, heck I would market it totally differently, giving it to folks and chargingfor the forum time LOL[:D]
Seriously, If you really invest in this, the cost over time falls off to badsically nothing.... if your are upset that MAtrix is a for profit company, again see my comment about entitlement. Life is not fair and the universe owes u or I nothing...


+1



aprezto -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 1:22:06 AM)

Madgamer;

I don't understand why you have to post the same thread, dressed in different clothes, so many times? You appear to have a difference of opinion to the way the game has come out, even though it is as stated by Matrix.
I find it astounding that you have to keep beating a dead horse. You don't like the way the game has been made. We are all allowed our opinions. But repeated listing of the same arguments feels like trolling to me.

But then, that's my opinion...



JeffroK -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 1:30:50 AM)

Some paragraphs would have made madgamers post more readable, though I doubt any clearer.

I thought Matrix did the right thing, the original proposal to require players of AE to have WITP was, to me, unreasonable
and if continued with I would have supported a claim that Matrix was trying to fleece its customers.

Those involved in changing this deserve our thanks, even better was a discount for WITP owners.

The fact that WITPAE is a harder game to master than WITP is irrelevant, it was marketed as such and I didnt see anything implying
it was an entry level game.

I've got a lot of questions over Matrix's style and approach, but madgamers comments seem, even to me, to be unfounded.



Knavey -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 1:35:48 AM)

[sm=terms.gif]

Forums, reviews and the Matrix website clearly warned of what people are getting into when they buy this game. Its not like it is sitting on a shelf for a general window shopper to stumble across.



Buck Beach -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 2:53:44 AM)

Madgamer, I think you are a 69 year old cry baby. Poor me and bad game company that seems to be your constant theme. I got an idea, play the games you already have.

67 and happy with AE!!

Buck



USSAmerica -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 11:26:34 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

... heck I would market it totally differently, giving it to folks and charging for the forum time LOL[:D]



freeboy, that's classic! [&o][:D]

... and the thought scares me to death! [X(][;)]



Halsey -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 11:58:00 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

... heck I would market it totally differently, giving it to folks and charging for the forum time LOL[:D]



freeboy, that's classic! [&o][:D]

... and the thought scares me to death! [X(][;)]



Isn't that what some online newspapers are starting to do now, to drive up revenue?

So, is's already started...
Subscriptions, boo...[:D]



castor troy -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 12:28:15 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

I have never played the original WITP, but I play and understand (not completely of course, but not significantly worse than WITP players either) AE. From what I understand there was a significant effort to make the AI better for those who don't play PBEM, so I don't really understand your criticism.



the AI definetely is better in AE. Not because it´s so much smarter but because of the new scripts that were put into it. You can still kill off all the IJA and IJN at a single spot on the map if the AI tries to bang it´s head on the wall there but at least you now don´t know it in advance like you did in WITP. In AE you have the chance to be surprised by the AI. That´s it IMO.



Rainer -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 1:57:18 PM)

Not only do I disagree completely with your view, I also feel what your saying is not fair to the people who made AE and what they achieved.
PS: playing PacWar, WitP, WitP/AE since 1990, always Allied against AI, and I always felt well treated here at the forum with my remarks and questions.



Mundy -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 2:07:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

I dunno, I dont' find AE that much more difficult than WITP. It is bigger, yes, and there are more options and such, but there are quite a few aids that I find invaluable (eg, sub patrols, waypoints) that I would miss very much if I went back to WITP. So if anything I find AE to be slicker and quicker!

As for stable - seems perfectly stable on my machine?


My only hang up skimming through AE are the search arcs. I always keep a TF's float planes on ASW at range zero, but I figure I'll have to babysit the VS squadrons' arcs as the CV TF moves along.

That and setting up every VP outpost. I can see myself getting blindsided somewhere along the line.

I definitely agree on waypoints. That will make direct convoys to Oz nicer.

M-



Mynok -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 2:57:46 PM)


Good grief....can't you people recognize a troll when you smell it? [sm=nono.gif]



DivePac88 -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 3:34:42 PM)

There's that Died Horse again!

[image]local://upfiles/30275/30A5695A680B4C94A533AE9943EEE01A.gif[/image]



chesmart -> RE: LEGAL?...but FAIR? (1/22/2010 3:37:03 PM)

Troll[:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@][:@]



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