Osprey Buffalo Aces (Full Version)

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Al Boone -> Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/26/2010 7:54:37 PM)

Osprey just released "Brewster F2A Buffalo Aces of World War 2" in their "Aircraft of The Aces" series. It is an interesting volume - For JFBs, it's the story of how the Buffalo ran rampant through the Zeros and Oscars of the early Pacific Theatre and had a few victories over the skies of Finland.[:D]



Hard Sarge -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/26/2010 8:01:11 PM)

hmmmm the shortest book Osprey ever released

:)



morganbj -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/26/2010 8:18:24 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

hmmmm the shortest book Osprey ever released

:)

[:D]



oldman45 -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/26/2010 9:40:48 PM)

We are talking about THE Brewster Buffalo [;)]



freeboy -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/26/2010 9:59:38 PM)

I suppose if it landed on a zero it MIGHT knock it out! [X(]



stuman -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/26/2010 10:21:21 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan


quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

hmmmm the shortest book Osprey ever released

:)

[:D]


[:D][:D]



tocaff -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 11:44:58 AM)

The Brewster company has the rare distinction of an arms manufacturer going out of business during a war, a world war no less.  Now if that doesn't say it all what does?



morganbj -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 1:21:35 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: tocaff

The Brewster company has the rare distinction of an arms manufacturer going out of business during a war, a world war no less.  Now if that doesn't say it all what does?

That's a myth. They went out of business because they sold the name to a future television producer who needed it for 1980's sitcom. I have that on VERY high authority.[8|]


[image]local://upfiles/26136/328EA17FB3714C52A38656CC5D392EE1.jpg[/image]



Twotribes -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 1:31:53 PM)

The Finns did very well with the Aircraft I hear.



xj900uk -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 1:45:44 PM)

Yeah but they were facing early war Russian pilots.  Remember that in the purges of 38 & 39 Stalin had had all the decent pilots & experienced trainers denounced, lined up and shot.  In the Russo-Finish war most Russian pilots went aloft buoyed up by little more than communist slogans and retoric



Panther Bait -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 2:07:18 PM)

Not just early war Soviet pilots, a lot of the Brewster victories in were over second and third-rate equipment like I-153's and I-16's.  As the Soviet pilot quality improved and the Soviets started to fly modern equipment against the Finns, the Finns switched to Bf-109s (although they also switched because they were running out of Buffalos after 3 years of fighting).



Puhis -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 2:42:35 PM)

Finnish squadron no. 24 Buffalos shot down 460 enemy planes. Their own losses were 17 planes out of total 44 - 14 air to air losses, 1 flak and two destoyed when enemy bombed the airfield. Most of the planes they shot down in 1941 were old soviet fighters (I-153, I-16) and bombers (mainly SB-2), and 1941 squadron lost only one plane. In 1942-44 veteran finnish aces could easily kill newer soviet fighters (hurricanes, MiG-3 and LaGG-3).

In 4/1944 squadron no. 24 got Bf-109s. Another squadron got rest of the buffaloes.




Sardaukar -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 3:04:09 PM)

Note also, that Finnish version of Buffalo was different from US Navy version or UK/Dutch version. Finnish planes "were de-navalised (lightened) F2A-1 Buffalos given the export designation Model B-239". Thus, they were not so hopelessly underpowered like other models and reportedly very easy to fly.



oldman45 -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 3:04:57 PM)

Ya gotta love the Fin's. I am sure there is a lesson there somewhere for the JFB's. Just can't see it yet. [;)]



Nikademus -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 4:04:10 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

I suppose if it landed on a zero it MIGHT knock it out! [X(]



ironically, in the one time during the Malaya campaign that RAF Buffalos met Zeros, the Buffalos got the bounce and shot down 2 of them. The Zero pilots claimed 2 in return but i wasn't able to verify the claims. In air combat.......noone is invincible and there are alot of variables outside of plane stats. [:)] The bane of the RAF Buff's thoughwas the Ki-27 along with a smattering of Oscars. Zeros did see consistant action over or near Java against Dutch 339's however and caused some serious pain.



Ametysth -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 4:42:49 PM)

One Finnish fighter ace said the secret of Brewster Buffalo was simplicity itself; Brewster 239, (export variant of F2A-1) was faster than any plane that could out-turn it and could out-maneuver any plane type that could out-run it! This applied to all planes in Russian inventory, including the P-39's and P-40's, even Hurricanes. According to game stats, this seems to be true (but wouldn't be true against Zeros or Oscars...).

Pretty much the same idea than a perfect warship being faster than any ship that out-guns it while being able to out-gun any ship faster than itself.

Plane airframe (single plane, flown by many pilots) with most kills (all time record); Brewster Buffalo [FAF Hull number BW-364, 42 victories].  Yeah, poor plane.



MkXIV -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 5:17:26 PM)

I know it is Wikipedia but this pretty much sums it up.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brewster_Aeronautical_Corporation



Nikademus -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 5:34:25 PM)

The Brewster F2A's problems appear to have been legion, though most sources i've tapped agree that the initial design (F2A-1) sans armor and self sealers was a fairly hot plane for the time which helps explain the Finnish success to a degree. However once the design gained 'weight', it's performance fell off and quality control issues also began to make themselves felt. As if that wasn't enough, Brewster lagged way behind schedule in delivering the modest # of contracted F2A's to the USN which pissed that org off and gave Grumman the opening it needed to re-introduce it's improved F4F (intially beaten out by the F2A prior)

There however is some contention in the above. Forty's book on USN naval fighters decried the Brewster from the beginning and cited not only poor workmanship but unstable flight characteristics and poor visibility over the nose. (one signifigant design different with the Tubby Wildcat.

All that said, the RAF pilots were not universal in condemning the Buffalo. Some commented favorably on it's ruggedness and speed in a dive. 67 Squadron, fighting alongside the AVG did not do badly. Malaya was tough on the RAF for a variety of reasons....alot of green pilots and among the smattering of BoB vets, their experience in having the better turning fighter served them poorly against the Japanese. Lack of early warning tech hurt and finally there was the general undercurrent of contempt that the Japanese airforce was held. Its machines were 2nd rate copies and it's pilots nearsighted bafoons who couldn't fight.



Sardaukar -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 5:38:43 PM)

FAF maintenance was also performed by high quality personnel and operating from land bases also alleviated some of the poor manufacture and structural qualities. 



Nikademus -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 5:42:20 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

FAF maintenance was also performed by high quality personnel and operating from land bases also alleviated some of the poor manufacture and structural qualities. 


Actually F2A maintenance was the same initially. Lundstrom and Forty (the latter especially) listed the continous maintenance headaches the F2A's caused the mechanics aboard the CV's. Most common failing was the landing struts which were notoriously unreliable. Another problem was the inflatable life raft behind the pilot. (it tended to go off without warning) Finally....pilots learned to be leary of the cockpit canopy which was prone to jamming, trapping the pilot inside. By the time the last of the Brewsters were relegated to training fields it was standard policy to tell pilots that they had to leave the canopies locked in the open position in case of engine or other component failure lest the pilot risk not being able to bail out.



freeboy -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 5:45:07 PM)

anything can work in a limited role.. tanks for instance, or a screwdriver.. hell try using a screwdriver as a hammer, does not work.. no doubt a lite weight buff could be some use, BUT we really HATE them in wipt and AE due to the game modeling the real pac ww2 performence.. which really was bad... few exceiptions to the contrary



Bearcat2 -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 6:01:51 PM)

The story of the Brewster Buffalo

http://www.warbirdforum.com/saga.htm



Brady -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 6:16:16 PM)

From the Naval Historical Sight:

[img]http://www.oniva.com/upload/2131/buggered5.jpg[/img]

Photo #: 80-G-12905

Brewster F2A-3 "Buffalo" fighter

Rests in the flight deck gallery walkway after suffering landing gear failure while landing on board USS Long Island (AVG-1), off Palmyra Island, 25 July 1942.
This plane is from Marine Fighting Squadron 211 (VMF-211), the last Navy or Marine Corps unit to operate the F2A in a front-line capacity.


Link



Kwik E Mart -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 7:03:17 PM)

you think that guy in foreground ripped his shirt trying to get out of the way? [X(]



Puhis -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 7:41:15 PM)

Here's interesting picture from finnish wiki.

http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:Brewster_Model_239_%28BW-372%29_side.jpg

4 soviet Hurricanes shot that plane down late june 1942. Finnish pilot dived burning plane on a small lake. He survived, but I think he was 20 km behind enemy lines. Well he made it eventually.

The plane was found and raised 1998. At the moment it's in Aviation Museum of Central Finland, borrowed from US National Naval Aviation Museum. The plane is just cleaned not restored, so bullet holes are clearly visible.

Edit: Another picture.
http://fi.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiedosto:Brewster_Model_239_%28BW-372%29_top.jpg



Al Boone -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/27/2010 8:19:51 PM)

The Osprey book was just released, so I thought of it as a chance for some humor. I am lucky to be a friend of Jim Maas who is the author of the original Squadron In Action book on the Buffalo. We were former members together of a local IPMS Group before it was taken over by some "Nazis". Jim used to get a lot of kidding about his interest in the Buffalo, but took it with good humor. To Puhis, a photo of unrestored BW-372 is in the Osprey book.



Brady -> RE: Osprey Buffalo Aces (1/28/2010 2:44:15 AM)


Ya I saw the Ospery book in the news letter from them, and it looks interestng, their books are fun to colect, I want to Finish Cull's book first though, I have read a few chapters out of it and havent been back to it in a year or so....

http://www.amazon.com/BUFFALOES-OVER-SINGAPORE-Brewster-1941-1942/dp/1904010326

Not becauses its bad I just got pulled in another direction.



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