Arralen's german OOB ver 4.401 (Full Version)

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Don Doom -> Arralen's german OOB ver 4.401 (11/16/2000 12:48:00 AM)

I figured I would start a new thread to help Mr Arralen[?] with the OOB beta input. So I will start: I noticed marder III[H] and Marder II icon's are still switched. The 10.5cm Heavy tank destroyer does not show up at any time in the editor even thur availble after dec 49?. The Naval gun emplacement does not show up at all either, even though available after dec 44. Not complaining at all. Just trying to help. If anything I can do to help, Drop me an e-mail, my family takes up a lot of my time but willing to help any way I can to help pay back for You and the rest of the people who created this Great Game. Don



Arralen -> (11/16/2000 4:33:00 PM)

Now that's nice [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I'm always thankful for suggestions and bug-reports !! I'll try to get v4.4.0.2 ready this weekend, and -hopefully- start on major formation changes afterwards; v4.4.1.0 will be ready in 1.5 weeks . Arralen



Don Doom -> (11/17/2000 12:49:00 AM)

Hope you are sitting down, OK 1] PSW-233 8 RAD & PSW-234/3 ARE THE SAME PICTURE. THEY ARE TWO DIFFERENT A.C.'s 2] PZKPFW Va IS A PICTURE OF AN PANTHER II TURENT. 3]Las 762 picture of an Marder III(H). 4] Marder II pic is marder III(H). 5] Marder III(H) picture of marder II. 6] Stuig 33B picture is Brumbar 7] sdkfz 10/4 & sdkfz 6/2 are the same picture. The 6/2 weights 10.5 ton's 10/4 is 5.5 tons. 8] sdkfz 251/17 picture is of sdkfz 7/2 quad 20mm 9] Daimle-benz 65 picture is 37mm pak 36 atg 10] sdkfz 251/23 picture is sdkfz 250/9. 11] 37mm pak 36 atg is in twice and picture is of french 25mm atg. I think it is french. 12] 81 & 120mm mortor same picture. 13] pzk III J,L,L,M,N, & psk IV G, & spw 251/10 are all in twice. whew, I tried to change the pictures but messed up bad enough to where I had to down load a second set of oob's. If you send me the list of pic # and how to change them right I can work on them. I found an icon program that works pretty good called Icon forge. Don d. [This message has been edited by Don Doom (edited November 16, 2000).]



Warhorse -> (11/17/2000 1:02:00 AM)

Don, those tanks and halftracks listed twice are for grey to camo change-over in 1943!! That was intentional!!! ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue



Don Doom -> (11/17/2000 1:07:00 AM)

OOP's sorry about that, it was 2 am when I was going thru them. My youngest daughter has a bad cold and did not wont to sleep last night. So I went over the oob's. I stand blind folded in front of your tank waiting. Thanks again don d.



Warhorse -> (11/18/2000 12:57:00 AM)

Don, sorry about any mistaken 'tone' there, I hate when I forget an emoticon!! Wasn't meant to bite your head off, dude, you may take off the blindfold [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue



Don Doom -> (11/18/2000 6:13:00 AM)

But I get to still stand in front of your tank right [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://smilecwm.tripod.com/net6/rocketq3.gif[/img] Don



Warhorse -> (11/18/2000 6:24:00 AM)

Suuurrrreeee!!! Hey, where's the link for that cool emoticon site anyway, I musta lost it?! Cracks somethin' or other wasn't it? ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue



Don Doom -> (11/18/2000 6:55:00 AM)

[img]http://smilecwm.tripod.com/ut2/Instagib.gif[/img] http://smilecwm.tripod.com/paladin/ Go here, Only after you play Mr Bills new battle. Don



cjpaul -> (11/19/2000 6:42:00 PM)

Arralen: 4 Things that should be corrected: 1. Unit 205 Hs 129B-2/R3 should have armor of 16(2) 2. Unit 209 Hs 129B-2/R1 should have armor 14(1) 3. Weapon 168 30mm Mk101 cannon should have Pen HE of 100. Yes, that's correct according to "Hs 129 Panzerjäger" by Martin Pegg. 4. Weapon 170 75mm Bk7.5 cannon should have Pen HE of 134. The Bk7.5 was the Pak40 minus the carriage, plus an automatic loader and a different muzzle brake. They had the same performance.



Securitas -> (11/20/2000 9:01:00 AM)

I have noticed that the german 1943 Mech Recon Platoon (Formation 1130 I believe) consists of 4 1/2 tracks and 4 recon teams. The problem is that the tracks are all the sort with no carry capacity. they should be changed to 250/1 so that the men can be carried, unless the 1/2 tracks listed should have been able to carry men but don't by mistake.



Arralen -> (11/21/2000 1:53:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by cjpaul: 3. Weapon 168 30mm Mk101 cannon should have Pen HE of 100. Yes, that's correct according to "Hs 129 Panzerjäger" by Martin Pegg. 4. Weapon 170 75mm Bk7.5 cannon should have Pen HE of 134. The Bk7.5 was the Pak40 minus the carriage, plus an automatic loader and a different muzzle brake. They had the same performance.
Thanks ... but I was told repeatedly that the PEN values are not "book values", so I cannot freely change them to fit those ... or I would have to be silent about it [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Arralen



Arralen -> (11/21/2000 1:56:00 AM)

Sorry folks, no new OOB this weekend 'cause I had a little trouble with family and "Finanzamt" (to tired to look this up now [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ) . So long ... Arralen



Fredde -> (11/22/2000 3:29:00 PM)

Just a little impression i have.. shouldn't hand grenades be more powerful than they are against infantry? Right now they seldom cause any casualties at all even at 0 range. When you are very close, grenades should be lethal. Taking out entrenched infantry, house to house fighting in cities etc etc.. situations where hand grenades should be invaluable but are not are numerous.



Arralen -> (11/22/2000 6:17:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fredde: Just a little impression i have.. shouldn't hand grenades be more powerful than they are against infantry?
But I couldn't do anything about this, as it would have to be changed in all OOBs, and that's a general design decision ... so please ask the folks from Matrix G. about this... Arralen [This message has been edited by Arralen (edited November 22, 2000).]



Fredde -> (11/22/2000 6:23:00 PM)

Couldn't find the "general" OOB post.. that's why i put it here. Was mostly interested to hear what people think about hand grenades. Yes, it's a general issue but still something that can be fixed by tinkering with the OOB's.



Warhorse -> (11/22/2000 8:26:00 PM)

I think the grenades are just about right, remember this is a 50 meter area, when I was in the Marines, I thought the grenade was more destructive than it really is,(due in part to lousey hollywood movies)mostly the damage is from fragments, not explosion. For example when we were throwing grenades in the Philippines, a newbie Private, about 3 guys down to my left, stood up in the trench and pulled the pin, and cocked his arm back in prep to throw, he was very nervous and evidently was "milking" it, fortunately the LT. saw it and screamed at him to throw. It only got maybe 5-7 feet away in front of us, and about the same in heigth before detonation, in the meantime we all ducked low in the trench when the LT yelled, consequently shrapnel peppered all of us, but.. NO casualties, one fellow caught a great deal of the shrapnel in the side of his face and his hand, and that was it!!!! So you see, they aren't anything like hollywood, don't get me wrong, they CAN ruin your day if placed correctly, but in a 50 meter are, with only a 5-10 meter effective damage are, there is some room to play. Hope this clears some up. ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue



Fredde -> (11/22/2000 9:01:00 PM)

Mike, I've been in the army too, and also on the receiving end of a bad, way too short, practice throw.. seems to be lots of these around. Luckily we were also down in a shelter and noone was hurt, but a shocking experience. By looking at the shrapnels embedded in the logs afterwards, i could tell that we wouldn't have been as lucky if the guy managed to drop it inside the shelter instead of just outside of it. Yes, it's a 50 meter area to play on.. but when you throw a grenade you probably see a target and aim for it. You don't just throw them randomly around somewhere in that 50 meter hex and hope for the lucky hit (completely random your hit chance should be around 4-5% with a 10*10 meter affected area and just one single target in the hex, quick calculation.. but somewhere like that). If you get one of them in that trench where the enemies sit, or manage to hurl it into a building room with enemies in you should get a kill fairly often. With kills here, I mean the SPWAW version of it.. wounded, shell-shocked, whatever that keeps the man from fighting. Grenades might not always be lethal, but a good way of taking a man out from combat for the short time spans we are talking about here. My point is that in close-range fighting against entrenched enemies, in bunkers, trenches or buildings.. hand grenades are a valuable weapon when trying to hit enemies holding their heads down.. and especially at 0 range when you "close-assault" the enemy. I think both military doctrine and historical accounts support this. Long distance throws are probably much less accurate though. Of course SPWAW has to be more "general", so maybe in average the grenade kill rates are correct. Just have the feeling that right now they don't do much more than producing a fancy sound [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] You get that occasional kill, but the crewman shooting wildly with his Colt 45 on 50 meters distance usually does better.



Kluckenbill -> (11/22/2000 9:18:00 PM)

I agree with Fredde. I was a tanker in the US Army so my grenade experience was limited to basic training. It does seem to me that once you get down to spittin' distance, grenades ought to be a pretty useful tool. Increasing the effectiveness of grenades would be one way to make close range infantry vs infantry combat more bloody. I'm amazed at how often I have a squad or two blazing away for a full turn at one hex range and cause only 1 or 2 casualties! ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !



Billy -> (11/22/2000 11:43:00 PM)

Changing grenade weaopn class from sec. inf. to prime seems to produce a more realistic effect



hhsohn -> (11/23/2000 1:59:00 AM)

How about just slightly higher suppression value for the grenades?



Fredde -> (11/23/2000 3:04:00 PM)

That's not a bad idea at all.
quote:

Originally posted by Billy: Changing grenade weaopn class from sec. inf. to prime seems to produce a more realistic effect



Arralen -> (11/23/2000 11:49:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Billy: Changing grenade weaopn class from sec. inf. to prime seems to produce a more realistic effect
No !!! Nooo !!! Bad ! Bad ! Very much BAD BAD !!! This will make the squad throw 1 grenade per men, not one single grenade ... this is a bit unrealistic, isn't it? And the ammo given to the squad represents all grenades carried, but this way only one "shot" will be deducted (as if only one man was throwing), so you would have to "turn" down" the ammo value .. but than the grenades will be one-way weapons .. fire once, be outta ammo !! Arralen



Fredde -> (11/24/2000 3:26:00 PM)

Should probably be somewhere inbetween having only one grenade per turn and all the men of the squad throwing grenades. Close range infantry combat should be a violent affair. Having only one man of the infantry squad throwing one single grenade during a whole turn is to go away from the real thing as well. Hey soldier, there's an enemy in that trench! You go throw one single grenade. Then you sit and wait three minutes before you throw the next if they don't die or get wounded on the first. Remember to not waste more grenades than one every three minutes. Make it a primary weapon while reducing its effiency to simulate not all the men throwing the grenades and divide the number of grenades carried by the squad with the number of men supposed to throw to give a realistic ammo count. Leave it as it is and increase efficiency to simulate more than one grenade throwed and reduce the ammo count similar to the example above. No OOB expert, but logically that would do the trick [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/wink.gif[/img] Could be too much work for little gain.. but an idea anyway.. [This message has been edited by Fredde (edited November 24, 2000).]



Arralen -> (11/25/2000 5:06:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fredde: Having only one man of the infantry squad throwing one single grenade during a whole turn is to go away from the real thing as well.
It's not 1 gren/turn, it's 1 gren/shot. Infantry normally gets 5..6 shots per turn, so you can throw 5..6 grenades in 3 minutes, or 1 every 30 seconds ... pretty violent when on the receiving end, isn't it? Don't think we'll change this values ! Arralen



john g -> (11/29/2000 5:41:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Fredde: Just a little impression i have.. shouldn't hand grenades be more powerful than they are against infantry? Right now they seldom cause any casualties at all even at 0 range. When you are very close, grenades should be lethal. Taking out entrenched infantry, house to house fighting in cities etc etc.. situations where hand grenades should be invaluable but are not are numerous.
Not all grenades are there to cause casualties via shrapnel. The US issued both the pineapple style fragmentation grenade, and a concussion grenade that was more of a flash-bang type, possibly lethal if tossed into a closed space like a bunker where the overpressure will cause you to bleed from your ears, but in the open it does nothing more than what in the game is suppression. Years ago I saw a demonstration of the m79, and it was very unimpressive, when the marine was asked why it gave such a wimpy bang, he mentioned that movie grenades are simulated with what they would use for 105mm artillery simulators. Now how about fixing the sturmtiger so that it is a heck of a lot more inaccurate, as it is now you can use it to shoot a moving vehicles, where everything I have ever read about it said that it was doing good to hit a house at the end of a street. thanks, John.



Dean Robb -> (11/29/2000 10:07:00 AM)

While I do agree that grenades *seem* a bit wimpy in game terms against troops in the open - it's actually fairly realistic. By the time your unit gets to the grenade throwing, it's already gone through some rifle shooting (primary weapon). This means that the enemy unit is likely in "pinned" status, ie: grabbing some cover. Since hand grenades have no penetration power to speak of, the enemy's cover-grabbing means that your pineapples are unlikely to do much. Increasing the suppression value a bit might be a reasonable idea because no one likes to stick bodily parts into the air when grenades are going off and they are great for shock value...but kills are not very likely. Frankly, I often turn off grenades for fights vs. infantry ..save them for the vehicles. Now...if there were some way to increase their damage effects against troops in buildings, that would be EXCELLENT. Off the top, though, I can't imagine how to do it. Oh...and as for effectiveness against entrenchments - it's not as good as one might think since grenade sumps (a deep pit in your foxhole; every few feet in trenches) became doctrine after WWI. For those unfamiliar, only in the movies does a grenade explode on impact...those fuses are not all THAT accurate and most of us who've tossed them would rather not trust some low-wage laborer to have set it for *exactly* five seconds vice 4.. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]. So very often, the grenade lands and you've got a chance to kick it into a sump. You also build (assuming you have time) your foxhole/trench with the bottom sloping toward the sump so that the grenade will (hopefully) roll into it. Taken as a whole, these measures limit the usefullness of grenades as killers against entrenched enemies...although when one comes sailing in, it does tend to focus the mind wonderfully on IT vice the enemy....



kao16 -> (11/29/2000 10:37:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Arralen in response to suggestion to change grenades from sec-weapon to inf primary: No !!! Nooo !!! Bad ! Bad ! Very much BAD BAD !!! This will make the squad throw 1 grenade per men, not one single grenade ... this is a bit unrealistic, isn't it? Arralen
I thought this (1 grenade per man) would only occur if the weapon was placed in slot one??? Have to check it now won't I.



BillSeurer -> (12/1/2000 5:26:00 AM)

Where (on the web) are the updated OOBs placed?



Alby -> (12/2/2000 5:45:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by BillSeurer: Where (on the web) are the updated OOBs placed?
See arralens post "new german oob beta test' link is there



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