Definitive answer - oil or fuel (Full Version)

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undercovergeek -> Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/28/2010 11:48:06 AM)

Without wishing this question to descend into every even numbered reply being 'oil, definitely oil', and every odd numbered one being 'fuel, always get the fuel' - assuming ive got the SRA and all the centres im after - do i ship back to Japan the oil or the fuel?

And if i understand correctly there is plenty of resources around the HI and within a certain range to manage the Honshu problem - what do i need to do with the resources i find elsewhere, do i ship them to Japan anyway or do they need to go to my captured mini-Japans - Palembang, Soerbaja, Hong Kong, Singapore?

Thanks for any help, i ask because the last time i searched it was oil, fuel, no oil, no fuel, fuel, yes oil - hoping now after the dust of release has settled somewhat there might be a definite answer



CapAndGown -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/28/2010 12:16:47 PM)

You forgot about vinegar.



vlcz -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/28/2010 12:24:58 PM)

"definitely" is too much to say ..but last "tendencies" point to OIL

Fuel advantages : 10% more fuel in each travel.

Oil advantages : Better storage capabilities.

IMHO the breaking factor to choose oil delivery to the homeland is that oil sitting in an outpost does no good, but fuel constitutes a reserve for any fleet unit around, and it can be distributed by xAKs





John Lansford -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/28/2010 12:31:27 PM)

I guess it depends on which side you're playing, and where your spare refining capacity is.  The Allies have tons of refining capacity where the oil is produced (Abadan, the West Coast), so it makes sense for them to ship fuel to where it's needed (mostly SoPac and Australia).  If the Japanese have refineries sitting in Japan unused, then shipping oil might make sense, especially if you've got excess oil at the DEI refinery locations.



Q-Ball -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/28/2010 12:50:28 PM)

Here is my take:

OIL v FUEL: Both, but I would focus more on Oil early, and more on Fuel as the war goes on. A few reasons. First, when you get desparate later in the war you can always use. You also will need some fuel for fleet operations in the SRA, though not as much as is produced. You will also want to haul some of that fuel to Truk and elsewhere to support the fleet; never send fuel FROM the Home Islands anywhere.

If you ONLY haul oil though, you will limit your Home Islands fuel to what you can refine each day. I also think in the late game the Allies could target your refineries, leaving the OIL unrefined and useless. So as the game goes on, I would haul more FUEL than OIL.

But early on, it probably doesn't make a huge difference either way. One thing I am pretty sure of: Repair the OIL, but not the REFINERIES in the SRA.

RESOURCES: There are more resources on the map than you need. Your Home Island needs can be met from Hokkaido, Sakhalin,China, Manchuria. There is no need to long-distance ship any in. There aren't really any other bases that require more Resources shipped to them, unless you expand the industry there. I would never expand or even repair Light Industry. If you expand Heavy Industry, the only reasonable place is Sinagpore, and even then it's debateable, but it would be easy to feed in Singapore.

The only time IMO you should be hauling Resources over long distances is when you are sending back AKs to the Home Islands; you may as well send them back full of SOMETHING.



USSAmerica -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/28/2010 1:23:42 PM)

I think it is a credit to the dev team that there is no easy answer to the oil vs. fuel question.  Great balance in the scenario design that keeps the player juggling through the game.  [8D]



undercovergeek -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/28/2010 1:24:52 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: USS America

I think it is a credit to the dev team that there is no easy answer to the oil vs. fuel question.  Great balance in the scenario design that keeps the player juggling through the game.  [8D]


Hmmm and leaves us IJ commanders chin scratching - but youre right!!

Thanks for all help, oil back home, fuel out to the hubs - i think



Treznor -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/28/2010 10:45:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Here is my take:

never send fuel FROM the Home Islands anywhere.



Really! I'm not that experienced, I've been doing this in my pbem game since the beginning! Thanks for the other advice, I've been doing all your 'don't do these thingys'[:(]



Puhis -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/29/2010 6:57:17 AM)

Ships carrying fuel seem to be very vulnerable. One torpedo or bomb hit and I always see "Fuel cargo burning" messages and heavy fires, and ship is definitely lost. So it it more riskless to carry oil, I think.



Marty A -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/29/2010 4:19:29 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Treznor


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Here is my take:

never send fuel FROM the Home Islands anywhere.



Really! I'm not that experienced, I've been doing this in my pbem game since the beginning! Thanks for the other advice, I've been doing all your 'don't do these thingys'[:(]



This like so many other things in life is subject to opinion. it is like say never borrow against your house. i would say never send fuel from japan to palembang. sending fuel from japan to say alaska is fine. sending fuel from japan to truk even is fine. just remember that what goes out must come back sometime later. sometimes needed to remove fuel from japan.



Mynok -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/29/2010 5:47:40 PM)


You'll need to ship both. Use tankers strictly for shipping oil and use AKs for fuel.

You will 'ship' fuel out of the home islands in the sense that fueling your fleet is going to reduce fuel levels there. The idea is not to supply forward bases with fuel from Japan. Use Singapore/Palembang/Balikpapan as your fuel supply hubs.




Q-Ball -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/29/2010 6:23:58 PM)

I would say Alaska is about the only place you would ship fuel FROM the Home Islands to. Why? The Home Islands are on a direct line anyway from the SRA, so you're not really wasting effort. But shipping fuel home, and THEN out to Truk....that's a waste. And that's effectively what you would be doing by grabbing it in the Home Islands.

The other exception is the first two months of the war, where you don't have access to the Fuel in the SRA yet....then, go ahead and ship from Japan, but I wouldn't haul more than you immediately need.

Mynok is right, all fuel for remote bases should come direct from the SRA.




Mynok -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/29/2010 6:30:34 PM)


The first two months of the war you will be most likely conquering the fuel-laden zones like Sumatra and Borneo. Shouldn't need to take out more than what is required for your task forces to take those areas. Then start distributing from there.



jackyo123 -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/29/2010 7:32:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Here is my take:

OIL v FUEL: Both, but I would focus more on Oil early, and more on Fuel as the war goes on. A few reasons. First, when you get desparate later in the war you can always use. You also will need some fuel for fleet operations in the SRA, though not as much as is produced. You will also want to haul some of that fuel to Truk and elsewhere to support the fleet; never send fuel FROM the Home Islands anywhere.

If you ONLY haul oil though, you will limit your Home Islands fuel to what you can refine each day. I also think in the late game the Allies could target your refineries, leaving the OIL unrefined and useless. So as the game goes on, I would haul more FUEL than OIL.

But early on, it probably doesn't make a huge difference either way. One thing I am pretty sure of: Repair the OIL, but not the REFINERIES in the SRA.

RESOURCES: There are more resources on the map than you need. Your Home Island needs can be met from Hokkaido, Sakhalin,China, Manchuria. There is no need to long-distance ship any in. There aren't really any other bases that require more Resources shipped to them, unless you expand the industry there. I would never expand or even repair Light Industry. If you expand Heavy Industry, the only reasonable place is Sinagpore, and even then it's debateable, but it would be easy to feed in Singapore.

The only time IMO you should be hauling Resources over long distances is when you are sending back AKs to the Home Islands; you may as well send them back full of SOMETHING.



Qball - interesting take on the resources question.

I have found that, given the initial port sizes in Hokkaido and Sakhalin, that its pretty easy to overload those bases; I've got about a dozen 'long haul' convoys running from the DEI to Osaka/Tokyo, and they seem to have eased the congestion at those other ports.

Late war, though, when they are size 8, it perhaps wont matter and the short haul runs will be sufficient.

Fuel vs oil - I am taking all the oil I can get, but at the smaller ports (the banders, balikips, tarakans, etc) that fuel gets loaded much quicker than a similar amount of oil. Might be illusionary, but it seems like its true. Plus of course, you can haul fuel in any ship; the tankers are slow loading, easy targets, and there are too few of them. So I expect to be hauling mostly fuel in the near future.



Mike Solli -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/30/2010 2:27:57 PM)

jackyo, a couple of comments....

First, you may be able to ease the resource problem by your long haul convoys from the DEI to Honshu, but you're burning fuel that you're going to need in a couple of years. I try to minimize ship movement as much as possible to save fuel.

Second, you may have problems moving resources from the outlying Home Islands to Honshu initially. Work on increasing port size and you'll eventually alleviate that. Also note that the resources usually migrate to the largest port on the island.



CapAndGown -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (1/30/2010 2:43:19 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: jackyo123


Fuel vs oil - I am taking all the oil I can get, but at the smaller ports (the banders, balikips, tarakans, etc) that fuel gets loaded much quicker than a similar amount of oil. Might be illusionary, but it seems like its true. Plus of course, you can haul fuel in any ship; the tankers are slow loading, easy targets, and there are too few of them. So I expect to be hauling mostly fuel in the near future.


The fuel is loading faster at a place like Miri because not much oil gets stored each turn. It gets sucked directly into the refinery. If you want the oil, turn off the refinery. In fact, I would recommend turning off the refinery there for a while since there is a limit to how much fuel can be stored, but no limit on the amount of oil.



SeethingErmine -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (2/1/2010 4:51:34 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
You'll need to ship both. Use tankers strictly for shipping oil and use AKs for fuel.


This is the sort of answer I was expecting. I mean, Tracker shows the home islands as running a net negative fuel production for me even with all the refineries going due to heavy industry fuel consumption. So even in the best-case scenario where the refineries get enough oil for the entire war, you'll have to ship back fuel at some point too in order for industry to keep running.

Does that sound right to you? Am I missing something?



Shark7 -> RE: Definitive answer - oil or fuel (2/1/2010 7:01:56 AM)

And the definitive answer is....both.

And here are some stats to back up my claim.

Using only the day 1 industry, oil, resources and refineries you have available you will find the following.

You have 1035 refineries under Japanese control at the start. These require 10,350 oil to operate of which you are 8,110 short. You need to capture 811 oil centers just to support the refineries you already own at the start of the game.

These 1035 refinery points will give you a total of 9315 fuel and 1035 supply points each turn is fully supplied with oil. Just to operate your starting Heavy Industry you need 13,900 fuel which means you are 4,585 fuel points short every day just to keep your starting heavy industry producing. This does not take into account ship fueling. To make up the deficit just for heavy industry fuel needs, you must capture 509 refineries, and an additional 509 oil centers on top of the 811 that are needed to get oil for starting refineries you already have.

Your starting industries are also short resources by 2650 points, meaning you need to capture a minimum of 133 resource centers to have the resources to keep only your starting industry running at full capacity.

None of the above takes into account any industry you capture or building up surpluses, it is just the bare minimum to keep the day 1 industry running at capacity.

In summary:

You need to capture a minimum of 1320 oil centers, 509 refineries, and 133 resource centers. You will also need to ship both oil and fuel to the Home Islands to keep industry running at peak efficiency. Even with the captures, 1/2 to 2/3 of your refining capacity is still going to be in Japan so you must supply it with oil and virtually all of your Heavy Industry will be there so fuel must also be shipped.

If you are wondering, I made myself an excel spreadsheet to help me keep up with what I need, the Japanese economy is just too complex to use the trial and error method. [;)]



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