spwaw question concerning campaigns (Full Version)

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Joseph -> spwaw question concerning campaigns (11/16/2000 3:58:00 AM)

well, i am playing a campaign as the germans, and it started in sept. of 1939. i have played 4 battles so far, with a major victory in each. yet... in every battle, and the new one i am currently in, i am defending. i never get to assault or attack. i'm wondering why this is... also, i've noticed that when the AI is moving its tanks, and firing at my units, the turrets of the AI tanks will turn immediately after firing to assume the orientation they had before pointing at my vehicle to take a shot. usually this change of direction after firing gives me a nice side or rear shot at the enemy tank when i take op fire... just a couple of points... i would like input/suggestions [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] thanks in advance -joseph




Wild Bill -> (11/16/2000 5:13:00 AM)

I don't know the answer to the first, perhaps some of the generated campaign gurus can help you. I would think in 1939 they would all be attack or meeting engagements. As to the second, an uneducated guess, there must be something in front of them that is of greater concern or else they are hell bent for leather to an objective. I can't think of why else they would do this. Normally they turn to face you and stay that way till they are threatened from another direction...WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games




Don -> (11/16/2000 1:16:00 PM)

Hi Joseph, What version are you playing? 4.4? If you've got a couple of wierd things happening I would try deleting the steel.prf file in your save folder. Sometimes that will straighten things out. You may want to include some more info, such as how many points you're starting with, if you left "battle points" at XXX, etc. I'm no expert on campaigns but somebody will be able to help! Don




Warrior -> (11/16/2000 9:53:00 PM)

I am hot on playing campaigns because I get to pick my core units, etc. But I don't think I've ever started a campaign in 1939 (I like to play as German, also, those Tiger tanks are great) since the heavy tanks weren't available then, and I'm not very fond of desert battles (I only recently began playing the East front). You can reset you starting dates, or just figure whoever you're fighting is into attacks - I think this would be particularly true in the East. Defense can be very good for adding to the experience of your troops, and I believe you have an advantage on defense, since the enemy comes to you. I almost always do better on defense than attack. Keep playing, you should get to attack soon.




BA Evans -> (11/16/2000 11:27:00 PM)

The type of battle has nothing to do with the results of your previous battles. It is random. BA Evans




Raindem -> (11/19/2000 1:16:00 PM)

I've played many generated long campaigns, and unfortunately, the type of battle seems to be purely random. I remember my first version 4.4 German campaign, the very first battle, I was assaulted by the entire Polish army. Then it was to France in 1940. Funny, I went through the whole French campaign without seeing a French soldier. My one and only battle was to advance on the British. Consider the generated campaigns simply to be a series of random battles with the same core force, in roughly historical places and dates.




john g -> (11/21/2000 1:07:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Joseph: well, i am playing a campaign as the germans, and it started in sept. of 1939. i have played 4 battles so far, with a major victory in each. yet... in every battle, and the new one i am currently in, i am defending. i never get to assault or attack. i'm wondering why this is... also, i've noticed that when the AI is moving its tanks, and firing at my units, the turrets of the AI tanks will turn immediately after firing to assume the orientation they had before pointing at my vehicle to take a shot. usually this change of direction after firing gives me a nice side or rear shot at the enemy tank when i take op fire... just a couple of points... i would like input/suggestions [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] thanks in advance -joseph
If you don't like the battle generated, (ie not another assault!!!) go back to your save from the end of the previous battle and you can get something different, often worse. Personally I preferred defend scenarios, my personal best victory margins were there, anyone have better than a 3500 or so to 1 margin? The key to defending against the ai is not to defend in depth. A WWI style trench line that shoots at anything that moves will tear up their attack better than spreading out and trusting on artillery to chew them up when they are flowing past your forward pickets. As far as the ai swiveling around, you can help them out by moving your at assets to either side of their tanks and then ping ponging the backside, you shoot the first and the tank faces it, you then shoot the second at the backside, and the tank faces the new threat, you then shoot the first again, with the backside showing to them. Much easier than doing flank shots with most tanks. thanks, John.




Flashfyre -> (11/22/2000 8:36:00 AM)

My personal best..... 2/43, German (me) defend vs Soviet (AI). My troops? One company of Tigers, one company SS mech infantry, engineer platoon, platoon of 75mm ATGs. Supported by one company of line infantry, one btln 150mm OBA, and another platoon of 75mm ATGs. Score: 9129 to 1 My only loss was a member of a supporting ATG, who got shot by a sniper. I destroyed 471 men and 65 AFVs. Oh, and 2 of my Tigers suffered main gun malfunctions early in the battle. Now my goal is to finish a scenario without a single man killed. Wonder if it can be done?




Pack Rat -> (11/22/2000 9:22:00 AM)

Push come to shove you can always create your owh "random campaign". Just create random battles of the type you would like and link them. I've not done it but it should work. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] ------------------ "Sex, it's natures way of loving you" Pack Rat




Drake -> (11/22/2000 9:59:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Flashfyre: My personal best..... 2/43, German (me) defend vs Soviet (AI). My troops? One company of Tigers, one company SS mech infantry, engineer platoon, platoon of 75mm ATGs. Supported by one company of line infantry, one btln 150mm OBA, and another platoon of 75mm ATGs. Score: 9129 to 1 My only loss was a member of a supporting ATG, who got shot by a sniper. I destroyed 471 men and 65 AFVs. Oh, and 2 of my Tigers suffered main gun malfunctions early in the battle. Now my goal is to finish a scenario without a single man killed. Wonder if it can be done?
Yes you can win a battle with no losses, did it more then once playing genarated campaigns. Thats why I dont play them any more. When most battles last no more then 6 to 8 turns and you get all BV, you kind of get board of it [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img] I play mostly user made campaigns now and try and buy a force that is more along historic lines. I always found it fun to not use the support points, that way you have to resk your own force and have non of that useing the poor support units as feader [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/smile.gif[/img]




Charles22 -> (11/22/2000 7:35:00 PM)

BA Evans: Do you have any idea what ever happened to the linking battle? SP used to allow, perhaps just in generated campaigns (though I haven't played any generated on SPWAW), battles which contradict what you're talking about somewhat. If you had attacked very well on the previous battle, sometimes the enemy would counterattack, and you would be given the option of whether you wished to continue battle without reequipping (therefore two or more battles in the same month), or you could deny it and go back to the next monthly battle. The example I pose may bot be entirely accurate, but in any event it was a situation, at times anyway, where you were given the basic option of continuing to fight with the same equipment or waiting for the next regular battle. Does SPWAW still have that deal? I thought it was pretty neat (I've never seen it in WWII SPWAW campaigns).




Charles22 -> (11/22/2000 7:48:00 PM)

I did play a battle against the Poles with the final tally between 3000-to-1 and 6000-to-1, but, this was when the artillery had got considerably nastier, and I was on the receiving end of the artillery. I still don't know how it happened. I think you will find the battles with such few losses by youself, are ones where the enemy never bombarded you. It's really aggravating to lose one mere point though, and I don't believe I've ever shut them out. It would seem the easiest way to get a shutout, would be to be the aggressor, and for the enemy not to have bought artillery, while you end up perhaps buying so much artillery that half his army was routed before you shot any direct fire in anger. While that may be a decisive sort of attack, and I wouldn't know since I don't play that way, but I would think that would make for very boring play. What makes play a bit fascinating, is to try to gear your force to the limitations of the other. For example, the AI never picks rocket launchers from what I've seen, so I wouldn't even contemplate picking such devastation. The computer sure doesn't seem to shy away from picking air support though. That's one thing I hate about artillery, that unlike air support, it's scarcely counterable, since it's off-map (at least the big stuff).




Warhorse -> (11/22/2000 8:14:00 PM)

This is the reason I edit ALL my generated campaign scenario's, just in case you all don't know about it, Rick Cloutier(Tankhead), and Fabio Prado's pages, also the Matrix journal have the document outlining how to go about it. Sure, it takes away some of the mystery of the AI force, but lets face it, after the first couple battles, you pretty much know the enemy pick force anyhow, right? May as well add in some equipment the AI would never buy, as well as a little more realistic defensive positions, your own maps, add reinforcements, allies, whatever, you will NOT get bored of a campaign doing it this way, I assure you!! I'm only in the end of '41 as the Germans starting out in '39, most of the battles are on the huge maps, and also you aren't limited to maybe one battle versus the French, or never even seeing the Belgians!! Just change the opponent to whoever, even the date, check it out!! Hope this will help revive the campaigns for you fellahs that are getting weary of the AI pick, again, that's why I started doing this, after the second battle against the British in the desert with tons of armor and such, said, "screw this"!! ------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue




Warrior -> (11/22/2000 8:17:00 PM)

I am replaying the same WWII campaign since your original comment. All 4 battles so far have been attacks.




Flashfyre -> (11/22/2000 8:38:00 PM)

One annoying thing about the AI....it tends to ignore some terrain while moving units, particularly vehicles. Often, the computer will move a tank thru a natural choke-point, like a road bracketed by woods, and you get a good kill. Then, it keeps bringing more tanks thru that same point, and you kill them. Now, after losing the first, I certainly wouldn't send anymore thru there. But the AI is a bit stoopid in this regard. But I count on this when deploying for a delay or defend mission. I set my tanks on hills, with good LOS to these areas, and place my infantry in reverse-slope positions. This allows my tanks, who survive arty attacks better, to shoot up the advancing tanks and infantry. After laying waste to most of the tank units, I retreat back behind the infantry, and wait for the enemy infantry to crest the hills, where my troops get point-blank shots. [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/biggrin.gif[/img] Oh, and Drake.....most of my support pts go for things like OB arty, ammo trucks, and reserve infantry (who guard the rear area VPs, and rarely see any combat). My core troops are the ones who do most of the fighting....after all, how else can they get experience and promotions, if they don't do any fighting? [img]http://www.matrixgames.com/ubb/tongue.gif[/img]




Charles22 -> (11/22/2000 9:26:00 PM)

I don't know. I seem to run into a variety of AI forces (though I hate to run into a very light force, if mine if medium to slightly heavy [as usual]), though there are some units which they more obviously won't pick, like rocket launchers. I've always been hoping that the wider maps would become available to the campaigns, but on the balance, as is, I still prefer the surprise of being uncertain as to the terrain I'm facing, and I haven't played enough to figure out exactly where the AI will be, particularly since it does move on the defensice occassionally, and what's more, I don't want to know. If I can just keep myself ignorant as to his patterns (other then the obvious en masse charge and even it isn't always after all the objectives at the same time) I can have a ball. I definitely can't imagine placing the enemy's units for him, for it would be sort of silly. I imagine that I would say to myself: Well this is usually my style of attack and this is where caution might leave me, so I will place units here and there. Then when I play agaiinst that force, I have to somehow brainwash myself into trying to forget some of the key elements that would counter my very style. It reminds me of a short film where Stan Laurel is playing tic-tac-toe by himself. He took one side, and then when his imaginary solitary opponent played, he would sort of hide what he was looking at from himself, but still had to look in order to make the opponent's mark. Actually, though it would make for some really wild dispositions, my brother and I, when we were doing solitary football and stuff, would have the opponent pick plays by going over random words in a book, so that if a draw was card one, the next word in the book would be say five letters, so that the opponent (after you had picked your play) would then pick the play which was five playes beyond the draw play) would pick random plays. To apply such a notion to SPWAW, you could pick random deployment places for platoons, while making the random elements to favor certain areas. If you could somehow section off the deployment areas and correlate that with words in a book, you would have truly unknown dispositions. But ultimately, if you were the one placing the units, you would still have to forget how it was done, but of course it would be a little easier given that it didn't use a whole lot of logic (this could of course work terribly with attacks by the AI). If you could anticipate campaign battles in advance, say ten at a time, you could do those ten, which of course would take quite a while, and then go play the first, probably having forgotten the dispositions of the first by then, since the scheme isn't working on any set idea on how to counter what someone else usually does. One pattern I have noticed, is that I don't think the AI will ever bombard 'in advance' of where you are. In other words, if I were to form one line on an advance, and kept moving them slightly forward or backward after being spotted, the AI would continually miss every single unit, but trying to incorporate such artillery-avoidance strategy and trying to do battle at the same time is something that would take some tuning. I have a major question here. Well it's major considering it directly involves a brand new campaign ongoing: Does the German cheaper Beob (the one with size 1) actually have FO ability? I ask because I tried to use it as a spotter and it doesn't chop any time off the artillery from the mortar HTs (the delay was 1.4, the same as with a command PZI, while neither the Beob or PZI was attached to the mortars). I've also noticed this Beob doesn't have a recon unit status, something which I thought would've been necessary for it to be a true FO. Anyone?




Kluckenbill -> (11/22/2000 11:36:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by john g: If you don't like the battle generated, (ie not another assault!!!) go back to your save from the end of the previous battle and you can get something different, often worse.
You're right. What happens is that you get a different type of battle each time you go to the unit selection screen. Just keep trying until you get the kind of battle you want. Personally, I'm not so keen on "Defend" battles later in a campaign. The problem is that I've upgraded to expensive, elite units. This gives the AI a lot of points to expend on artillery. No matter how good your units are or how masterfully you deploy them, its still rough to sit under a multi-batallion bombardment. Personally I like the "assault" battles the most because they are more tactically challenging. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !




john g -> (11/23/2000 3:15:00 AM)

quote:

Originally posted by Kluckenbill: You're right. What happens is that you get a different type of battle each time you go to the unit selection screen. Just keep trying until you get the kind of battle you want. Personally, I'm not so keen on "Defend" battles later in a campaign. The problem is that I've upgraded to expensive, elite units. This gives the AI a lot of points to expend on artillery. No matter how good your units are or how masterfully you deploy them, its still rough to sit under a multi-batallion bombardment. Personally I like the "assault" battles the most because they are more tactically challenging.
Precisely why I like the defend battles. Picking the hexes that #1 have good fields of fire #2 have an intrinsic bonus on defense and #3 allow the maximum firepower to be used against the enemy before he reaches an effective range Depending on what sort of artillary is available to the other side, just how closely do you site units, do you put units behind each other so that you have entrechments to retreat to, do you leave many units in reverse slope positions so they are not spotted. An assault can win the day with superior firepower or maneuver, with a defend your maneuver choices have been made when you site your units, I rarely move units in a defend, trusting to their fire to clear threats before they are hurt badly. I guess I was smart playing the Germans vs the west in my WWII campaign. No real killer concentrations of artillery, just lots of planes to shoot down. thanks, John.




Raindem -> (11/24/2000 12:30:00 PM)

I've tried what Packrat suggested and it works good. In about 2 hours I was able to link 20 generated battles into a long campaign. I chose the type of attack and the number of AI points, but everything else was random, including the setup and force composition. It makes for a more structured long campaign, and in my view it's 100% better than letting the AI generate the battle and points. I've also tried "editing as you go" but didn't care for it as it took too much surprise out of what was coming. This has encouraged me to embark on a much larger project: A long German campaign using linked scenarios from start to finish. My initial storyboard shows I'll need 100-150 scenarios for a basic representation resulting in about 25-30 battles actually fought. My last decision is how much detail I want to put in to a single scenario. I can generate a basic scenario in about 5 minutes. But to put in waypoints, reaction, good AI setup, etc. takes a lot more time. And then of course there is the playtesting and fine tuning. Is anyone else working on something like this?




Hortlund -> (11/24/2000 1:43:00 PM)

quote:

Originally posted by Raindem: This has encouraged me to embark on a much larger project: A long German campaign using linked scenarios from start to finish. My initial storyboard shows I'll need 100-150 scenarios for a basic representation resulting in about 25-30 battles actually fought. My last decision is how much detail I want to put in to a single scenario. I can generate a basic scenario in about 5 minutes. But to put in waypoints, reaction, good AI setup, etc. takes a lot more time. And then of course there is the playtesting and fine tuning. Is anyone else working on something like this?
I am. Perhaps it would be fun to exchange campaigns. After all, It is kinda booring when you know exactly what you have ordered the AI to do. Problem is I dont really feel like playing campaigns anymore. Those damn immortal leaders take *all* the fun out of campaigning... Steve ------------------ Panzerjaeger Hortlund -=Fear is only a state of mind=-




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