RE: Jap Signal intelligence (Full Version)

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Brady -> RE: Jap Signal intelligence (2/9/2010 5:17:45 AM)


How were Torpedoes political?

.......

IJA/IJN cooperation, or their precaved lack theirof is a myth, at least to the extent it seams to be comomly preceaved. Their are many many examples of the two services working very well together on many diferent levals, and very few examples of them not getting along well, and those tend to be at very high levals.

Operationaly their is realy no more reasion to place any restrictions on them in game then their is for US army and Marines or any of the Comenwealth forces.

Practialy speaking their are legitamely many more reasions that the Allies should not work as well together as they do on many levals,non the least of which are aircraft suport units or ports providing all maner of suply and ammo for forgine ships.

In fact it is such a huge can of worms that it was just left alone and even if one wanted to be anal enough to bring such distinctions into efect it would be almsot imposable to model corectly.




jeffs -> RE: Jap Signal intelligence (2/9/2010 7:21:23 AM)

While I tend to agree IJN ASW is overrated....Whining about IJA/IJN cooperation also seems whiny....IRL, the Chinese (Nationalists) did nothing against Japan and only had
interest in fighting the communists...Here you can have them work together. Chiang Kai Shek can actually have a brain (but with some mediocre ratings).....

But back to the main story.....Japanese sig int was mediocre. And the US (in real life) got better info than they get here...No reason to give the Japanese help when they do not deserve it.




Mike Scholl -> RE: Jap Signal intelligence (2/9/2010 8:24:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

IJA/IJN cooperation, or their perceived lack thereof is a myth, at least to the extent it seams to be commonly perceived. Their are many many examples of the two services working very well together on many different levels, and very few examples of them not getting along well, and those tend to be at very high levels.



It might be many things Brady, but it isn't a Myth. Japanese War production was continually hampered by the squabbles of the IJN/IJA. Both had many similarities in their needs, yet each produced it's own version of everything. They couldn't agree on a common voltage for A/C electrical systems, or a common version of the 7.7mm mg used in those aircraft. Each took over and operated it's own merchant marine..., and refused to carry cargoes for the other. The IJA even launched it's own A/C carriers.

Gen. Yamashita ended up being executed after the war for the actions of Naval troops who refused his orders to abandon Manila and instead fought it out in the city while committing endless atrocities against the populace. The IJN refused to tell the IJA about Midway for over a year after the Battle. Much of what little radar the Japanese had in the Home Islands at war's end was wasted with suitable positions being occupied by TWO installations..., one Army and one Navy.

At the lowest levels, the Army's privates and the Navy's ratings may have gotten along OK, but above that it was a constant struggle, and given Japan's other weaknesses not one she could afford.




Brady -> RE: Jap Signal intelligence (2/9/2010 6:28:11 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl



1It might be many things Brady, but it isn't a Myth. Japanese War production was continually hampered by the squabbles of the IJN/IJA. Both had many similarities in their needs, yet each produced it's own version of everything. They couldn't agree on a common voltage for A/C electrical systems, or a common version of the 7.7mm mg used in those aircraft. Each took over and operated it's own merchant marine..., and refused to carry cargoes for the other. The IJA even launched it's own A/C carriers.

2Gen. Yamashita ended up being executed after the war for the actions of Naval troops who refused his orders to abandon Manila and instead fought it out in the city while committing endless atrocities against the populace. The IJN refused to tell the IJA about Midway for over a year after the Battle. Much of what little radar the Japanese had in the Home Islands at war's end was wasted with suitable positions being occupied by TWO installations..., one Army and one Navy.

At the lowest levels, the Army's privates and the Navy's ratings may have gotten along OK, but above that it was a constant struggle, and given Japan's other weaknesses not one she could afford.



1- Realy this is not any diferent than the US Navy or the US Army, The IJA and IJN used the same engines in many of their planes. IJA and IJN Shiping neads differed do largely to the fact that the IJA was the Primary Land Fighting force and operated the Main Amphibious assests, IJA Aircraft carriers were actualy Amphibious warfare Ships.

2- Both the IJA and the IJN had radar sets, from mid 42 on in increasing numbers, just like the US Army and Navy did for their respective bases.

Thier were as I mentioned above Examples (Notable ones) whear the two servies did not get along. But for the most part operationaly they worked well together.

The Myth is the extent that this riverly went, all one nead do is read through somejoint operations reports to see how well they did often work together.

I posted this before, and if you read through this you can get a feal for how well the two services did work together during a magor operation, and did so on numiours ocashions:

http://ajrp.awm.gov.au/ajrp/AJRP2.nsf/Translation/ContentsPage?OpenDocument





Mike Scholl -> RE: Jap Signal intelligence (2/9/2010 7:39:31 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl



1It might be many things Brady, but it isn't a Myth. Japanese War production was continually hampered by the squabbles of the IJN/IJA. Both had many similarities in their needs, yet each produced it's own version of everything. They couldn't agree on a common voltage for A/C electrical systems, or a common version of the 7.7mm mg used in those aircraft. Each took over and operated it's own merchant marine..., and refused to carry cargoes for the other. The IJA even launched it's own A/C carriers.

2Gen. Yamashita ended up being executed after the war for the actions of Naval troops who refused his orders to abandon Manila and instead fought it out in the city while committing endless atrocities against the populace. The IJN refused to tell the IJA about Midway for over a year after the Battle. Much of what little radar the Japanese had in the Home Islands at war's end was wasted with suitable positions being occupied by TWO installations..., one Army and one Navy.

At the lowest levels, the Army's privates and the Navy's ratings may have gotten along OK, but above that it was a constant struggle, and given Japan's other weaknesses not one she could afford.



1- Realy this is not any diferent than the US Navy or the US Army, The IJA and IJN used the same engines in many of their planes. IJA and IJN Shiping neads differed do largely to the fact that the IJA was the Primary Land Fighting force and operated the Main Amphibious assests, IJA Aircraft carriers were actualy Amphibious warfare Ships.

2- Both the IJA and the IJN had radar sets, from mid 42 on in increasing numbers, just like the US Army and Navy did for their respective bases.

Thier were as I mentioned above Examples (Notable ones) whear the two servies did not get along. But for the most part operationaly they worked well together.

The Myth is the extent that this riverly went, all one nead do is read through somejoint operations reports to see how well they did often work together.

I posted this before, and if you read through this you can get a feal for how well the two services did work together during a magor operation, and did so on numiours ocashions:




Yeah Brady..., I remember reading somewhere how MacArthur was executed for the horrible atrocities committed by Hart's Naval Forces in Manila..[:D] Forget it, Ol' Buddy..., I'm not going to correct your spelling again. [8|]




spence -> RE: Jap Signal intelligence (2/9/2010 8:49:52 PM)

What...you're not impressed with his unsupported assertions that all was really peaches and cream in the Imperial House.

You probably forgot that only the mass attacks of uncounted ships, planes, and men straight into the muzzles of the Japanese guns that caused Imperial Japan to finally accede to something less than total victory too. But then again all the records of the great Japanese victories after early 1942 were mysteriously destroyed. I heard it happened at the Annual Imperial Japanese Army Navy Friendship Fish Fry when the barbeque pit fire got out of control while the respective leaders were toasting each other's strategic brilliance and good health.




mdiehl -> RE: Jap Signal intelligence (2/9/2010 10:06:58 PM)

quote:

IJA/IJN cooperation, or their precaved lack theirof is a myth, at least to the extent it seams to be comomly preceaved. Their are many many examples of the two services working very well together on many diferent levals, and very few examples of them not getting along well, and those tend to be at very high levals.


Riiight. [8|]

For example, they worked so well that the Army scuttled three IJN operational plans for carrying the war into the eastern Pacific only conceding to the fourth plan (for which they released 1500 combatants to attempt to invade Midway) after the Doolittle raid. They worked so well together that the Japanese Army commander of Japanese forces in the Philippines declared Manila an Open City in 1944, only to have the IJN garrison commander there ignore the order and put the citizens to the sword. They worked so well together that the Imperial Japanese Army operated its own suite of aircraft carriers (which were ferries for IJAAF planes but launched them from the deck after the fashion of real navies) and it's own suite of supply vessels that the IJN in particular refused to provide escorts in 1943 and 1944.

The Japanese army and navy cooperated like male pea-cocks with fighting spurs on their feet. Any semblance of coordinated action between the two was nonexistent most of the time, and purely accidental on the rare occasions that it actually occurred.




Mynok -> RE: Jap Signal intelligence (2/10/2010 2:25:56 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


How were Torpedoes political?



Easy. The reports from the front by the captains that the torpedoes didn't work were ignored. That's nothing more than bigwigs saving their asses after they had approved the weapon. Politics. It ain't just a civilian thing.

The IJA/IJN issue was different from the US situation because in the latter there was a supreme commander-in-chief who could arbitrate the issues if needed. Japan had nothing of the sort. Tojo was in charge and he was Army.




Bradley7735 -> RE: Jap Signal intelligence (2/10/2010 5:04:02 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


How were Torpedoes political?



Easy. The reports from the front by the captains that the torpedoes didn't work were ignored. That's nothing more than bigwigs saving their asses after they had approved the weapon. Politics. It ain't just a civilian thing.

The IJA/IJN issue was different from the US situation because in the latter there was a supreme commander-in-chief who could arbitrate the issues if needed. Japan had nothing of the sort. Tojo was in charge and he was Army.


Ralph Christie did more to help the Japanese than any other allied person. He considered the magnetic exploder his pet project and would not allow commanders to deactivate it. He tried to block any testing of the torpedoes.

He was one of the top 3 US Sub commanders in the Pacific. Lockwood should have canned him from the start. Instead, he was in charge of all subs based out of Perth and/or Brisbane.

He is the only reason that it took about 18 months to fix the torpedos, instead of 6 months.

You don't get much more 'political' than that.




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